Pilot arrested at Manchester (merged)
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The CAA would not have had input into the BAC levels set, any more than than DVLA would have into the drink drive limits.
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Cathar
An assumption on my part, sorry. It stands to reason that as in the case of the Raod Traffic Acts concerning Drinking obviously the medical proffession were consulted.
Anyway, having seen what you wrote and searched on the JAR OPS paragraph, I found this, which should answer the questions concerning where this act came from and the reasons behind it:
---------------------------------------------------
A.Background
Article 65(2) of the Air Navigation Order 200069(ANO) makes it an offence for a person to act as a member of the crew of an aircraft while under the influence of drink or drugsto such an extent as to impair their capacity so to act. Article 13(8) makes a similaroffence for maintenance engineers and article 96 for air traffic controllers. In addition,operations manuals established by aircraft operators in accordance with Article 31 of theANO are required to give clear guidance on abstention from alcohol before duty periods.There is no provision for breath testing in the ANO.Following an accident to a light aircraft in 1991 the Air Accidents Investigation Branchmade a recommendation that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) initiate action to amend what was then Article 57 of the Air Navigation (No 2) Order 19957 to require aircrew involved in an accident or suspected of an offence under the Article to provide a sample for testing. The CAA accepted this recommendation, but section 60 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 does not give it the power to include such a provision in the ANO. The department stated in its consultation paper on proposed legislation on combating alcohol at sea that it had agreed to consider amending section 60 of the Act when a suitable legislative opportunity arose. The department consulted on proposals to introduce "with cause" alcohol testing for safety critical civil aviation personnel in 1996 which had a positive response. The Joint Aviation Authority (JAA) is an associate body of the European Civil AviationConference and has been developing harmonized aviation safety standards, known as joint aviation requirements (JARs) since 1970. It now has 32 member states including allEU member states and other European countries. The Joint Aviation Requirement on Commercial Air Transportation (JAR-OPS) adopted by the JAA in April 1995 containsprovisions on alcohol and drug abuse. Section 1.085(b) states that:a crew member shall not
1) consume alcohol less than eight hours prior to the specified reporting time for flight duty or the commencement of standby;(2) commence a flight duty period with a blood alcohol level in excess of 0.2promille [ie 20mg/100ml], or(3) consume alcohol during the flight duty period or whilst on standby.JAR-OPS do not have the force of EU law but there is a European Commission proposal(COM 2000/121) to make them part of EU law.B. The BillThe provisions covering aviation personnel are similar to those being introduced formariners and largely mirror those in road traffic legislation and the TWA 1992. Clause89 introduces provisions similar to those in the ANO but they are now supported inclause 90 by a prescribed limit of 20 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood forair crew and air traffic controllers. The levels for maintenance engineers are the same asin the road traffic acts..Clause 91(2),(3)&(4) apply the offences of being over the limit or unfit to a categoryspecific to aviation that of crews on standby.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't appear to have copied and pasted very well, so please don't blame me for mistakes in grammer and missing spaces.
An assumption on my part, sorry. It stands to reason that as in the case of the Raod Traffic Acts concerning Drinking obviously the medical proffession were consulted.
Anyway, having seen what you wrote and searched on the JAR OPS paragraph, I found this, which should answer the questions concerning where this act came from and the reasons behind it:
---------------------------------------------------
A.Background
Article 65(2) of the Air Navigation Order 200069(ANO) makes it an offence for a person to act as a member of the crew of an aircraft while under the influence of drink or drugsto such an extent as to impair their capacity so to act. Article 13(8) makes a similaroffence for maintenance engineers and article 96 for air traffic controllers. In addition,operations manuals established by aircraft operators in accordance with Article 31 of theANO are required to give clear guidance on abstention from alcohol before duty periods.There is no provision for breath testing in the ANO.Following an accident to a light aircraft in 1991 the Air Accidents Investigation Branchmade a recommendation that the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) initiate action to amend what was then Article 57 of the Air Navigation (No 2) Order 19957 to require aircrew involved in an accident or suspected of an offence under the Article to provide a sample for testing. The CAA accepted this recommendation, but section 60 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 does not give it the power to include such a provision in the ANO. The department stated in its consultation paper on proposed legislation on combating alcohol at sea that it had agreed to consider amending section 60 of the Act when a suitable legislative opportunity arose. The department consulted on proposals to introduce "with cause" alcohol testing for safety critical civil aviation personnel in 1996 which had a positive response. The Joint Aviation Authority (JAA) is an associate body of the European Civil AviationConference and has been developing harmonized aviation safety standards, known as joint aviation requirements (JARs) since 1970. It now has 32 member states including allEU member states and other European countries. The Joint Aviation Requirement on Commercial Air Transportation (JAR-OPS) adopted by the JAA in April 1995 containsprovisions on alcohol and drug abuse. Section 1.085(b) states that:a crew member shall not
1) consume alcohol less than eight hours prior to the specified reporting time for flight duty or the commencement of standby;(2) commence a flight duty period with a blood alcohol level in excess of 0.2promille [ie 20mg/100ml], or(3) consume alcohol during the flight duty period or whilst on standby.JAR-OPS do not have the force of EU law but there is a European Commission proposal(COM 2000/121) to make them part of EU law.B. The BillThe provisions covering aviation personnel are similar to those being introduced formariners and largely mirror those in road traffic legislation and the TWA 1992. Clause89 introduces provisions similar to those in the ANO but they are now supported inclause 90 by a prescribed limit of 20 milligrams of alcohol in 100 millilitres of blood forair crew and air traffic controllers. The levels for maintenance engineers are the same asin the road traffic acts..Clause 91(2),(3)&(4) apply the offences of being over the limit or unfit to a categoryspecific to aviation that of crews on standby.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesn't appear to have copied and pasted very well, so please don't blame me for mistakes in grammer and missing spaces.
Just a numbered other
cargo boy wrote
I would think, bjcc, that he means that as our Finnish friend could quite legally have driven to Manchester airport before being castigated by our media as 'drunk' (and we most certainly do not allow drunk driving in this country) that some people have lost all sense of perspective in these cases.
The debate on here should be focused on the arbitrary limits as they have been set by the authorities and the methods of detecting them. What we appear to have is the usual misinterpretation of "drunk" and "over the limit"
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Yes, I agree thats what I think his point is, and having spent many years enforcing the legislation on drink drive,and arresting people for drunk I am fairly well up on th difference.
The question was also asked as to how this legislation arrived. Well now you have the answer.
However sober he was he has now been convicted of a criminal offence, he is serving a prison sentence as a result, as will in all probabilty anyone else caught doing the same.
As I said, people will have to learn to live with this law, I am not suggesting anyone should like it. There are ways of avoiding dropping yourself in it, and those I have suggested. Whether people take any notice is thier affair....
The question was also asked as to how this legislation arrived. Well now you have the answer.
However sober he was he has now been convicted of a criminal offence, he is serving a prison sentence as a result, as will in all probabilty anyone else caught doing the same.
As I said, people will have to learn to live with this law, I am not suggesting anyone should like it. There are ways of avoiding dropping yourself in it, and those I have suggested. Whether people take any notice is thier affair....
Just a numbered other
However sober he was he has now been convicted of a criminal offence, he is serving a prison sentence as a result, as will in all probabilty anyone else caught doing the same.
I say again:
people have lost all sense of perspective in these cases.
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Perhaps you could explain how how I have lost my sense of perspective? Or is this you have lost your sense of reality?
I. He was convicted of a Criminal Offence.
2. He is serving a prison sentence. The reason why is that he was in a position of responsibility, he abused that. The courts obviously are going to take a serious view of that, in the same way as they do of any occupation where there is a responsibilty for safety. In his own country there is a ZERO tolelerence to alcohol and flying. He exceeded that.
I have never called this chap drunk, I am fully aware he was no where near drunk. However any alcohol can impair a person, not make them drunk just impair thier ability.
I. He was convicted of a Criminal Offence.
2. He is serving a prison sentence. The reason why is that he was in a position of responsibility, he abused that. The courts obviously are going to take a serious view of that, in the same way as they do of any occupation where there is a responsibilty for safety. In his own country there is a ZERO tolelerence to alcohol and flying. He exceeded that.
I have never called this chap drunk, I am fully aware he was no where near drunk. However any alcohol can impair a person, not make them drunk just impair thier ability.
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The Royal Brunei captain was sentenced today.
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bjcc
I'm hesitant to go quite as far as saying you've lost all sense of perspective, but I understand what Arkroyal means and do wonder. You do seem to have a certain type of police view, and don't show any signs of being even remotely understanding about the 'other' side.
I was surprised by your earlier comments about prisons.
normal_nigel said:
”The guy wasn't pissed but as said misjudged his recovery rate and at worst would have had a bit of a hangover. Not condoning it but now that gets you six months in a scum filled prison.”
I think that was an entirely reasonable comment.
Your response:
”You have summed it up, yes for that offence you get 6 months in a 'scum filled' prison." Fine so far, but then you added "Odd thing about prisons they are full of people who have been convicted of criminal offences....As this pilot has been.”
and subsequently added: ” I have some bad news for you....he was convicted of a criminal offence, earning him a prison sentence. He is therefore a criminal.”
Do you really see no difference between people who’ve spent their lives sponging off society and committing crimes against others, and decent people who’ve worked hard all their lives and make a single mistake of this nature which is a criminal offence?
Do you really think the effect of being sent to prison is the same on everyone, regardless of the way they’ve lived their lives previously?
I’m not suggesting people of previous good character shouldn’t ever be sent to prison (or no-one would ever be sent) but don’t you have any sympathy or pity for otherwise thoroughly decent respectable hard-working people who make a mistake of this nature and are then banged up in prison with the dregs of society?
"(The pilot) is therefore a criminal."
On reflection, I think you are losing perspective. You consider anyone convicted of a criminal offence can fairly be described as a criminal. I don't. I think there's a big difference between someone who commits a single criminal offence and 'a criminal', and an enormous difference between 'a criminal' and someone who commits an offence of this nature.
The old adage 'If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime' is true up to a point, but there's a difference between delibertately setting out to commit a criminal offence and finding out later you have committed one.
It will be interesting to see what the Court of Appeal says about the six month sentence on the Finnish pilot if he appeals - which IMHO, he certainly should.
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bjcc
I'm hesitant to go quite as far as saying you've lost all sense of perspective, but I understand what Arkroyal means and do wonder. You do seem to have a certain type of police view, and don't show any signs of being even remotely understanding about the 'other' side.
I was surprised by your earlier comments about prisons.
normal_nigel said:
”The guy wasn't pissed but as said misjudged his recovery rate and at worst would have had a bit of a hangover. Not condoning it but now that gets you six months in a scum filled prison.”
I think that was an entirely reasonable comment.
Your response:
”You have summed it up, yes for that offence you get 6 months in a 'scum filled' prison." Fine so far, but then you added "Odd thing about prisons they are full of people who have been convicted of criminal offences....As this pilot has been.”
and subsequently added: ” I have some bad news for you....he was convicted of a criminal offence, earning him a prison sentence. He is therefore a criminal.”
Do you really see no difference between people who’ve spent their lives sponging off society and committing crimes against others, and decent people who’ve worked hard all their lives and make a single mistake of this nature which is a criminal offence?
Do you really think the effect of being sent to prison is the same on everyone, regardless of the way they’ve lived their lives previously?
I’m not suggesting people of previous good character shouldn’t ever be sent to prison (or no-one would ever be sent) but don’t you have any sympathy or pity for otherwise thoroughly decent respectable hard-working people who make a mistake of this nature and are then banged up in prison with the dregs of society?
"(The pilot) is therefore a criminal."
On reflection, I think you are losing perspective. You consider anyone convicted of a criminal offence can fairly be described as a criminal. I don't. I think there's a big difference between someone who commits a single criminal offence and 'a criminal', and an enormous difference between 'a criminal' and someone who commits an offence of this nature.
The old adage 'If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime' is true up to a point, but there's a difference between delibertately setting out to commit a criminal offence and finding out later you have committed one.
It will be interesting to see what the Court of Appeal says about the six month sentence on the Finnish pilot if he appeals - which IMHO, he certainly should.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 6th Dec 2004 at 19:48.
Methinks, that he (If he was a UK pilot) would fail his CRC check so not be able to get an airside pass so would be out of a job. Bit harsh if he has done his therapy etc and a one off error of judgement.
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My only surprise in relation to the Finnish pilot is that he got 6 months. There are lots of excellent points made in this very lengthy thread - especially points relating to many other professions which do not have an "excess alcohol" law relating to them. Nevertheless, I feel that sympathy is misplaced for those who get convicted of this offence. I truly believe that the passengers would fully endorse the Judges' sentence. He could have got up to 2 years.
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FL
'You do seem to have a certain type of police view, and don't show any signs of being even remotely understanding about the 'other' side. '
Perhaps you didn't see the original comment I made amongst all the hype.
I felt and still do that 6 months is harsh (in respect of the Fin). I see both sides of this, I have no axe to grind against the Fin, nor the pilot sentenced today. I do however belive, as most of the public do that I have a right to travel in safety.
You know as well as I do that any alcohol will impare a person and reduce thier ability to do something in compasison to when they have had nothing to drink.
The term 'criminal' in respect of these 2 is objected to because of an emotional response, had they been any other occupation then it would no doubt be used regualy. That having been said I agree with your 'degrees' of criminal line.
There are many people doing time that have been convicted for offences while trying to do the 'right' thing, so I have never subscribed to the if 'if you can't do the time...' line. But I do feel that if you are in a position of responsibility where safety is a factor over which you have control then you must also accept the consequences if you do it wrong.
On a related note, I have to applaued your client today for allowing you to be so open about the circumstances leading to his conviction. Maybe if more people where like that then those that don't deseve a criminal record could stay out of trouble.
'You do seem to have a certain type of police view, and don't show any signs of being even remotely understanding about the 'other' side. '
Perhaps you didn't see the original comment I made amongst all the hype.
I felt and still do that 6 months is harsh (in respect of the Fin). I see both sides of this, I have no axe to grind against the Fin, nor the pilot sentenced today. I do however belive, as most of the public do that I have a right to travel in safety.
You know as well as I do that any alcohol will impare a person and reduce thier ability to do something in compasison to when they have had nothing to drink.
The term 'criminal' in respect of these 2 is objected to because of an emotional response, had they been any other occupation then it would no doubt be used regualy. That having been said I agree with your 'degrees' of criminal line.
There are many people doing time that have been convicted for offences while trying to do the 'right' thing, so I have never subscribed to the if 'if you can't do the time...' line. But I do feel that if you are in a position of responsibility where safety is a factor over which you have control then you must also accept the consequences if you do it wrong.
On a related note, I have to applaued your client today for allowing you to be so open about the circumstances leading to his conviction. Maybe if more people where like that then those that don't deseve a criminal record could stay out of trouble.
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There is a famous saying, which goes along the lines,
Rules are for the guidance of the wise and obedience of idiots.
I do not agree/disagree with the new laws but thay have gone too far and only applying to certain aviation professions. What about doctors, surgeons, lorry drivers, taxi drivers, etc etc the list can be endless. During the 2nd world war, and I'm sure many recent conflicts, soldiers are given drugs to survive. How many soldiers are shot by their own people? I know it's not a great analogy but how far do we go to prove safety?
If laws are to be applied, then it should not be to one certain profession but to everyone. The aviation is the safest profession in the world and I, as an aviator, will always try to ensure that. But this does not stop a lorry driver driving through my village at 30mph, being slightly under the drink driving limit, and ploughing through my children walking home from school. However a commander of an aeroplane knows that if he is over the limit he does not go to work, also bearing in mind there are three more people to help him, one f/o, and 2 a/p's.
Two choices, either bring all professions under the same limit or readjust the whole system to be fair.
Rgds
Rules are for the guidance of the wise and obedience of idiots.
I do not agree/disagree with the new laws but thay have gone too far and only applying to certain aviation professions. What about doctors, surgeons, lorry drivers, taxi drivers, etc etc the list can be endless. During the 2nd world war, and I'm sure many recent conflicts, soldiers are given drugs to survive. How many soldiers are shot by their own people? I know it's not a great analogy but how far do we go to prove safety?
If laws are to be applied, then it should not be to one certain profession but to everyone. The aviation is the safest profession in the world and I, as an aviator, will always try to ensure that. But this does not stop a lorry driver driving through my village at 30mph, being slightly under the drink driving limit, and ploughing through my children walking home from school. However a commander of an aeroplane knows that if he is over the limit he does not go to work, also bearing in mind there are three more people to help him, one f/o, and 2 a/p's.
Two choices, either bring all professions under the same limit or readjust the whole system to be fair.
Rgds
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119.5
Your point is well made, except perhaps that the limit for engineers is the same as the road traffic act which applies to everyone who drives for a living.
There really is no need for a clerk to have a limit on how much he's had to drink, the worst harm he is going to do is stab himself with a paper clip...The same goes for many occupations.
Those where there is a safety implication are becoming more regulated....Train drivers, ships crews are all covered by similar legislation.
Whether or not everyone on your list will ever be subject to something similar I don't know. However I would be more than happy to see a ZERO BAC for anyone in a saftey related job, or one where they could cause harm by thier actions, yes I include the Police in that.
Someone has suggested before that the limits applying to aircrew and ATCO's should also apply to anyone working at an airport, I agree, at the moment because its private property you can't even breath test a baggage handler with a 4 ton truck once he's airside. That same baggage driver can do a fair amount of harm with his 4 tonnes worth.
Parliament passed the law, apparently they operate on behalf of the public (OK its a nice theory) and if you ask the public what they want on the subject of pilots drinking what reply do you think you would get?
Ultimatly the responsibility lays with the person subject to legislation, whether that be a pilot deciding how much to drink, or a Police Officer having to decide in a split second if he's justified in shooting someone.
I chose to be a Police officer when I left school, and in doing so I had to accept the restrictions (of which there were many) that applied to my life away from work. Those restrictions changed over time, some for better, some for worse, at the end of the day the choice was still mine, either I accept them , or vote with my feet. The same applies here, if people don't feel they should or can accept changing conditions they have the option to leave. Just as when I left the Met the world will keep spinning.....
Your quote is well known, but in this case break it and it may well earn you 6 months.
Your point is well made, except perhaps that the limit for engineers is the same as the road traffic act which applies to everyone who drives for a living.
There really is no need for a clerk to have a limit on how much he's had to drink, the worst harm he is going to do is stab himself with a paper clip...The same goes for many occupations.
Those where there is a safety implication are becoming more regulated....Train drivers, ships crews are all covered by similar legislation.
Whether or not everyone on your list will ever be subject to something similar I don't know. However I would be more than happy to see a ZERO BAC for anyone in a saftey related job, or one where they could cause harm by thier actions, yes I include the Police in that.
Someone has suggested before that the limits applying to aircrew and ATCO's should also apply to anyone working at an airport, I agree, at the moment because its private property you can't even breath test a baggage handler with a 4 ton truck once he's airside. That same baggage driver can do a fair amount of harm with his 4 tonnes worth.
Parliament passed the law, apparently they operate on behalf of the public (OK its a nice theory) and if you ask the public what they want on the subject of pilots drinking what reply do you think you would get?
Ultimatly the responsibility lays with the person subject to legislation, whether that be a pilot deciding how much to drink, or a Police Officer having to decide in a split second if he's justified in shooting someone.
I chose to be a Police officer when I left school, and in doing so I had to accept the restrictions (of which there were many) that applied to my life away from work. Those restrictions changed over time, some for better, some for worse, at the end of the day the choice was still mine, either I accept them , or vote with my feet. The same applies here, if people don't feel they should or can accept changing conditions they have the option to leave. Just as when I left the Met the world will keep spinning.....
Your quote is well known, but in this case break it and it may well earn you 6 months.
When you live....
Amongst the determination to get stuck into BJCC and turn legal, technical terms like criminal into emotive ones, I think the crux of this issue has been lost - namely - the guy was warned that questions had been raised about his fitness for duty and yet he decided off his own bat to continue.
Regardless of the training, competence or rank of the person raising the question - if there is any doubt as to fitness then not taking positive action to resolve it is reckless. Prosecution is then inevitable. Before the howls commence about upstart PPL wannabees (the security guard (and me for that matter)) unqualified to make such calls - the safety of the flight is paramount. If a malicious report was made that delays a flight then that can be dealt with too - through the laws of defamation if needs be. There's even a fairly strong argument to say that upstart wannabees (not that he was) or people with a chip on their shoulders have a role to play in the whole system as they are far less likely to turn a blind eye or be cowed by the status of a senior captain.
119.5 discussed the M62 motorway crash. Well yes - if an ATCO or pilot feels that they are not up to the job due to tiredness then they are UNFIT FOR DUTY and have a legal duty to stand down - to not do otherwise rightly invites prosecution (hopefully before people get killed). Likewise - that ATCOs watch supervisor or that pilot's dispatcher who saw them behaving erratically or falling asleep prior to/during duty also has a duty of care to take positive action to ensure the ATCO/pilot is relieved. The reason that rest periods are mandated for pilots is because you can't just pull over and have a nap - the training, the rules and the intelligence required for the job involve you taking responsibility for your physical and mental fitness at the start of duty and at any point during duty when that changes.
Why different rules for different professions? I don't know the answer to that. Why is aviation being picked on? Well, it's not really - in fact the laws have taken a long time to catch up. I (currently) work in the railway industry. As far back as the turn of the century, signalmen were being rostered for 24 hour shifts and then prosecuted when they fell asleep and trains crashed. Admittedly they normally got off but we're back to my original point - they had no choice, no mechanism for going sick, no way of identifying or proving their fitness for duty or of taking any other action that wouldn't result in them being fired. On this occasion, the RBA captain had all of those opportunities and took none of them - as Kevin Bacon said in "A Few Good Men" - "these are the facts of this case and they are undisputed".
So is he a criminal? Yes. Is that fair? Yes. Should those who are upset that he has been branded a criminal step back from getting sucked in by tabloid headlines (branded a criminal - is it tattooed on his backside?) and take criminal for the legal technical term it is? Yes. It's an overrated emotive term. Ask yourself the question - have I ever done anything criminal? I'm not saying you have but if the answer is yes then just because you weren't caught doesn't mean you're not a criminal.
So 'Rules are for the guidance of the wise and obedience of idiots'. Which one is the Brunei pilot? How do you get the idiots to obey? Who defines wise? - self-awarding of status is an oxymoron - so who are the rules meant to be obeyed by? Everyone.
Regards,
UTR.
Regardless of the training, competence or rank of the person raising the question - if there is any doubt as to fitness then not taking positive action to resolve it is reckless. Prosecution is then inevitable. Before the howls commence about upstart PPL wannabees (the security guard (and me for that matter)) unqualified to make such calls - the safety of the flight is paramount. If a malicious report was made that delays a flight then that can be dealt with too - through the laws of defamation if needs be. There's even a fairly strong argument to say that upstart wannabees (not that he was) or people with a chip on their shoulders have a role to play in the whole system as they are far less likely to turn a blind eye or be cowed by the status of a senior captain.
119.5 discussed the M62 motorway crash. Well yes - if an ATCO or pilot feels that they are not up to the job due to tiredness then they are UNFIT FOR DUTY and have a legal duty to stand down - to not do otherwise rightly invites prosecution (hopefully before people get killed). Likewise - that ATCOs watch supervisor or that pilot's dispatcher who saw them behaving erratically or falling asleep prior to/during duty also has a duty of care to take positive action to ensure the ATCO/pilot is relieved. The reason that rest periods are mandated for pilots is because you can't just pull over and have a nap - the training, the rules and the intelligence required for the job involve you taking responsibility for your physical and mental fitness at the start of duty and at any point during duty when that changes.
Why different rules for different professions? I don't know the answer to that. Why is aviation being picked on? Well, it's not really - in fact the laws have taken a long time to catch up. I (currently) work in the railway industry. As far back as the turn of the century, signalmen were being rostered for 24 hour shifts and then prosecuted when they fell asleep and trains crashed. Admittedly they normally got off but we're back to my original point - they had no choice, no mechanism for going sick, no way of identifying or proving their fitness for duty or of taking any other action that wouldn't result in them being fired. On this occasion, the RBA captain had all of those opportunities and took none of them - as Kevin Bacon said in "A Few Good Men" - "these are the facts of this case and they are undisputed".
So is he a criminal? Yes. Is that fair? Yes. Should those who are upset that he has been branded a criminal step back from getting sucked in by tabloid headlines (branded a criminal - is it tattooed on his backside?) and take criminal for the legal technical term it is? Yes. It's an overrated emotive term. Ask yourself the question - have I ever done anything criminal? I'm not saying you have but if the answer is yes then just because you weren't caught doesn't mean you're not a criminal.
So 'Rules are for the guidance of the wise and obedience of idiots'. Which one is the Brunei pilot? How do you get the idiots to obey? Who defines wise? - self-awarding of status is an oxymoron - so who are the rules meant to be obeyed by? Everyone.
Regards,
UTR.
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111.95:
"Rules are for the guidance of the wise and obedience of idiots"
In light of the consequences, perhaps you'd now agree that Rules are for the adherance of the wise, guidance of the unititiated and obediance of those who can't help themsleves.
"Rules are for the guidance of the wise and obedience of idiots"
In light of the consequences, perhaps you'd now agree that Rules are for the adherance of the wise, guidance of the unititiated and obediance of those who can't help themsleves.
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I agree that the quote does not apply to the law. But for some people rules are rules and "its more than my jobs worth mate" comes to mind. If the security guard smelt alchohol on the captain, he could have had a private word and told him, just like a pub landlord would say to one of his customers if they've had too much to drive. I would always advise any of my friends or colleagues not to drive if they've had too much nor to fly. What if the plane had got airborne and then crashed. Since take off to crash the security guard had told his mates that he smelt alcohol o the captains breath. Whose fault is it then?
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119.5
Yes he could, he didn't have too and didn't. You can hardly make him responsible for the captains demise because he didn't.
The fault I'm afraid lays with one person and one alone. Yes he may well have thought he would be under the limit. Having read some of the posts in the early days of this legislation and seen the ideas people have regarding what they can drink and be certain of being safe to drive, it would not suprise me. The CAA advice of 12 hours between drinking and flying may again have had some influence on his thinking.
But when it comes down to it, he decided to drink, he decided not to eat and he decided he would go to work. Not the person that sold him the drink, not the security guard, not the BAA not the Police nor the courts, him!
There is no point in looking for someone else to blame and saying if he had done such and such it would not have happened.
If this had been a coach driver in similar circumstances would there be the same comments?
Yes he could, he didn't have too and didn't. You can hardly make him responsible for the captains demise because he didn't.
The fault I'm afraid lays with one person and one alone. Yes he may well have thought he would be under the limit. Having read some of the posts in the early days of this legislation and seen the ideas people have regarding what they can drink and be certain of being safe to drive, it would not suprise me. The CAA advice of 12 hours between drinking and flying may again have had some influence on his thinking.
But when it comes down to it, he decided to drink, he decided not to eat and he decided he would go to work. Not the person that sold him the drink, not the security guard, not the BAA not the Police nor the courts, him!
There is no point in looking for someone else to blame and saying if he had done such and such it would not have happened.
If this had been a coach driver in similar circumstances would there be the same comments?
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: France
Age: 73
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[B]hang them all[/B]
Is the world out of its wit? 14 pages to acknowledge that the law is the law and a pilot with 49mg a criminal…
So what’s next?
Chop the head of Bush and Blair who told lies to the world and whose fault it is that so many Iraqis and American p eople die each day?
Hang those City bosses who after a well alcoholised dinner decide to delocalise their enterprises and ruin thousands of their employees?
Burn on the stack all the police chiefs unable to prevent their officers to drink alcohol?
I suggest we put a breathalyser at the boarding gate for the passengers, after all, an inebriated pax is probably more dangerous in an A/C than a captain below the already very tight drink and drive rule.
I only whish all those preaching tough justice meet their judge one day.
And to prevent any abuse, I don't drink .
So what’s next?
Chop the head of Bush and Blair who told lies to the world and whose fault it is that so many Iraqis and American p eople die each day?
Hang those City bosses who after a well alcoholised dinner decide to delocalise their enterprises and ruin thousands of their employees?
Burn on the stack all the police chiefs unable to prevent their officers to drink alcohol?
I suggest we put a breathalyser at the boarding gate for the passengers, after all, an inebriated pax is probably more dangerous in an A/C than a captain below the already very tight drink and drive rule.
I only whish all those preaching tough justice meet their judge one day.
And to prevent any abuse, I don't drink .
