Pilot arrested at Manchester (merged)
Nigel, CAA accident # 9101093D. Just to shut you up. And please, let me know it's you next time I'm unlucky enough to have you flying me around.. so I can get the hell off the aircraft.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oxford
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
HeathrowDirector:
"At my last but one medical before I retired AME poked around and said: "You're a controller, right?" When I agreed he said "I can tell from your liver - in most pilot's of your age their livers are down to their knees". Sad, eh?"
Hmmmm.....
Do you think those that seek to become pilots are genetically predisposed to drink, or rather does this say something about the job of commercial aviator?
"At my last but one medical before I retired AME poked around and said: "You're a controller, right?" When I agreed he said "I can tell from your liver - in most pilot's of your age their livers are down to their knees". Sad, eh?"
Hmmmm.....
Do you think those that seek to become pilots are genetically predisposed to drink, or rather does this say something about the job of commercial aviator?
Plastic PPRuNer
Having PPRuNe'd for a few years and noted with concern the bizarre rostering and inadequate recovery times permitted pilots I can say that I'm far more concerned about fatigue issues in the chaps flying me than a few micrograms of alcohol over already very low limits.
The point that NO commercial accident has been attributable to alcohol for many years is well taken. A disturbing number have however been attributed to fatigue. And what about the pilot who is still upset over the row he had with his GF/wife/neighbour the day before?
This is stupid hysteria akin to that that recently removed a pair of nailclippers from my overnight bag and does nothing to promte flight safety.
Mac M.D.
The point that NO commercial accident has been attributable to alcohol for many years is well taken. A disturbing number have however been attributed to fatigue. And what about the pilot who is still upset over the row he had with his GF/wife/neighbour the day before?
This is stupid hysteria akin to that that recently removed a pair of nailclippers from my overnight bag and does nothing to promte flight safety.
Mac M.D.
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: uk
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike
Thanks. The fact that Selfin has included the grand total of one incident and a GA one at that illustrates that GA is probably the limit of his knowlege.
Mac
well said
I'm still waiting for alcohol related incidents and accidents???
BJ
Were you p*ssed when you wrote that last post? Hope your not flying.
Thanks. The fact that Selfin has included the grand total of one incident and a GA one at that illustrates that GA is probably the limit of his knowlege.
Mac
well said
I'm still waiting for alcohol related incidents and accidents???
BJ
Were you p*ssed when you wrote that last post? Hope your not flying.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: western europe
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mac, "more concerned about fatigue" .... your dead right but ...
...... is there any hope in a Nation that traditionally has worked its Junior Doctors for 80 to a 120 hours per week and is fiighting tooth and nail to retain the max hours despite E.U. pressure
...... is there any hope in a Nation that traditionally has worked its Junior Doctors for 80 to a 120 hours per week and is fiighting tooth and nail to retain the max hours despite E.U. pressure
Mike, not relevant eh? You know, 76% of light aircraft crashes in the US are down to alcohol. But at any rate, no fatalities attributed to alcohol in the UK on aircraft under parts 23 and 25.. what does that say? No need for the legislation since we all got by nicely without it, or sheer luck?
Considering the high percentage of pilot error involved in fatal aircraft accidents, and considering the propensity of alcohol abuse by British pilots (goes hand in hand with the thrill seeking nature of being a pilot), I would find it incredibly hard to believe that alcohol never once played a part in a fatality in the UK (commercial ops of course).
In any event, the very belief that no accidents have occurred yet in the UK as a result of alcohol consumption is neither here nor there. They have happened elsewhere.
HD's citation of his AME says it all. And with that in mind, it takes a HEALTHY liver an hour to process a unit.
And whatever happened to adhering to the ANO section 1 part 5 article 65 para 1? Seems to be a very funny attitude towards alcohol in this industry.
Furthermore it is very clearly stated in Finnish law that only a zero blood-alcohol level is tolerated whilst acting as a crew member. See Ilmailulaki 1995/281 38 §, paragraph 1, "Tehtävää ilma-aluksessa ei saa suorittaa se, jonka veren alkoholipitoisuus on alkoholin nauttimisesta kohonnut tai joka on käyttänyt muuta huumaavaa ainetta niin, että sitä on hänen elimistössään havaittava määrä." http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1995/19950281
Considering the high percentage of pilot error involved in fatal aircraft accidents, and considering the propensity of alcohol abuse by British pilots (goes hand in hand with the thrill seeking nature of being a pilot), I would find it incredibly hard to believe that alcohol never once played a part in a fatality in the UK (commercial ops of course).
In any event, the very belief that no accidents have occurred yet in the UK as a result of alcohol consumption is neither here nor there. They have happened elsewhere.
HD's citation of his AME says it all. And with that in mind, it takes a HEALTHY liver an hour to process a unit.
And whatever happened to adhering to the ANO section 1 part 5 article 65 para 1? Seems to be a very funny attitude towards alcohol in this industry.
Furthermore it is very clearly stated in Finnish law that only a zero blood-alcohol level is tolerated whilst acting as a crew member. See Ilmailulaki 1995/281 38 §, paragraph 1, "Tehtävää ilma-aluksessa ei saa suorittaa se, jonka veren alkoholipitoisuus on alkoholin nauttimisesta kohonnut tai joka on käyttänyt muuta huumaavaa ainetta niin, että sitä on hänen elimistössään havaittava määrä." http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1995/19950281
Mike, it's never going to be possible to rule out the potential of luck having played a hand in the UK not having had an accident where the major contributory factor was alcohol. Fatal accidents and major incidents are not the only products of flying whilst either intoxicated or otherwise impaired. Maybe you can fly on a bottle of wine safely, but out of all the pilots whom this law effects take the 10% who have the slowest metabolism, throw in an unhealthy liver, moderate fatigue, domestic problems, perhaps a bit of post traumatic stress... and you have an irrefragably lethal mixture. Now try telling me a pilot who's had a few glasses of wine is sensible, or that any law which might exist permitting it is sensible (whilst flying of course). Perhaps it is, perhaps I'm stark raving mad. But it is afterall the public which buys the tickets, of whom 1 in 3 are scared to fly; the very idea that their pilot would be slightly intoxicated might not appeal to them.
And for your official figures, how about mandatory breathalyzation when reporting for flying duty? The number of complaints about that ought to be a fair indicator of who fully appreciates the immiscibility of flying and intoxication.
And most European pilots are probably aware of a lot of things when they're sitting behind a computer.
And for your official figures, how about mandatory breathalyzation when reporting for flying duty? The number of complaints about that ought to be a fair indicator of who fully appreciates the immiscibility of flying and intoxication.
And most European pilots are probably aware of a lot of things when they're sitting behind a computer.
Last edited by selfin; 4th Dec 2004 at 16:24.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The lesson here is simple. Every pilot should have in their bag a calibrated breathalyser ( in terms of your career not expensive). Before leaving home or hotel check level, if in doubt go "unfit for duty".
The other alternative is to become teetotal.
The other alternative is to become teetotal.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Jenvey
the new act applies equaly to GA aviation as it does to Public Transport. Otherwise it would like being having car drivers and bus drivers with different drink drive limits.
While what you say about Selfin's post be irrelevent to public transport is true, NN didn't specify, so Selfin has answered his question.
Ok, it is just one incident, but is one not too many?
The pilot was not tried as such, he pleaded guilty. In his country there is a zero BAC level, and he must therefore have realised with the amount he had drunk he would still have alcohol in his system. He was about to fly a Finish registered aircraft and he should have been mindful of his obligation to comply with Finish law, (for him to have been convicted there would have to be an equivilent offence in the country of registartion of the aircraft, so Finish law is relevent) not just UK legislation.
The legislation was suggested by the CAA, presumably because they felt there was either a problem or potential for one. Perhaps someone should ask them for the reason they wanted it. It may answer better the question about previous incidents concerning alcohol (and drugs)
Its been suggested by Sky9 that if you are subject to this law, you should buy a calibrated screening device, thats a good idea, it would keep some out of prison. Alternativly if airlines invested in a few machines and put them somewhere prior to crew checkin where they could be discreetly used before someone commits an offence.
the new act applies equaly to GA aviation as it does to Public Transport. Otherwise it would like being having car drivers and bus drivers with different drink drive limits.
While what you say about Selfin's post be irrelevent to public transport is true, NN didn't specify, so Selfin has answered his question.
Ok, it is just one incident, but is one not too many?
The pilot was not tried as such, he pleaded guilty. In his country there is a zero BAC level, and he must therefore have realised with the amount he had drunk he would still have alcohol in his system. He was about to fly a Finish registered aircraft and he should have been mindful of his obligation to comply with Finish law, (for him to have been convicted there would have to be an equivilent offence in the country of registartion of the aircraft, so Finish law is relevent) not just UK legislation.
The legislation was suggested by the CAA, presumably because they felt there was either a problem or potential for one. Perhaps someone should ask them for the reason they wanted it. It may answer better the question about previous incidents concerning alcohol (and drugs)
Its been suggested by Sky9 that if you are subject to this law, you should buy a calibrated screening device, thats a good idea, it would keep some out of prison. Alternativly if airlines invested in a few machines and put them somewhere prior to crew checkin where they could be discreetly used before someone commits an offence.
It was in an article done by the Daily Mail within the last 8 years. Since you seem very keen on finding it, I can recall it said "British Airways at Heathrow runs a course to help people overcome their fear of flying, estimated to be as many as 1 in 3."
It would be conservative to say about 30% of commercial pilots have a propensity to abuse alcohol. It's what you'd call anecdotal evidence, which I strongly believe would be nearly impossible to back up scientifically owing to the very nature of alcoholism, being a disease of denial. People are naturally going to lie about their drinking if they have a problem.
It would be conservative to say about 30% of commercial pilots have a propensity to abuse alcohol. It's what you'd call anecdotal evidence, which I strongly believe would be nearly impossible to back up scientifically owing to the very nature of alcoholism, being a disease of denial. People are naturally going to lie about their drinking if they have a problem.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: everywhere
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot arrested at Manchester
Hello all PPRuNes!
I decided to join this forum after having followed it since the Finn got arrested a few months back.
I am a close relative of an airline pilot who has managed to fly almost 30 years whilst being a serious alcoholic. By serious I mean someone who spends most of their time on the ground being heavily drunk (not to mention domestic violence, disturbed sleep, loss of memory and lack of deep relationships) and who reports-in under influence or hangover.
All this is tolerated year after year. No-one reports the pilot: family, fellow pilots, cabin crew, dispatch, wx office, ramp, crew bus driver, mechanics, passengers. Not to mention crew rostering who know the ones with this disease. Not to mention the annual / bi-annual medical check.
There are a lot of people who know who these people are. Yet hardly anyone dares to interfere.
I think that instead of pilots saying "NO" to routine breathelizer checks before reporting-in, there should be suggestions from the pilots themselves on how to make sure that one is fit to fly at least when it comes to being sober, or free from drugs. (Over)tiredness is also an important matter, but I won´t deal with it now, since I find it deserves its own thread.
Greetings from
Air Sober
I decided to join this forum after having followed it since the Finn got arrested a few months back.
I am a close relative of an airline pilot who has managed to fly almost 30 years whilst being a serious alcoholic. By serious I mean someone who spends most of their time on the ground being heavily drunk (not to mention domestic violence, disturbed sleep, loss of memory and lack of deep relationships) and who reports-in under influence or hangover.
All this is tolerated year after year. No-one reports the pilot: family, fellow pilots, cabin crew, dispatch, wx office, ramp, crew bus driver, mechanics, passengers. Not to mention crew rostering who know the ones with this disease. Not to mention the annual / bi-annual medical check.
There are a lot of people who know who these people are. Yet hardly anyone dares to interfere.
I think that instead of pilots saying "NO" to routine breathelizer checks before reporting-in, there should be suggestions from the pilots themselves on how to make sure that one is fit to fly at least when it comes to being sober, or free from drugs. (Over)tiredness is also an important matter, but I won´t deal with it now, since I find it deserves its own thread.
Greetings from
Air Sober
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: london/UK
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Jenvey
I had read your previous post, perhaps I put it badly. The CAA asked for the legislation, no idea why, and from what you have posted there seems to be no logical reason for it.
The CAA would not have had input into the BAC levels set, any more than than DVLA would have into the drink drive limits. That would have been done by advice from the Dept of Heath (or whatever its called this week). Like the limits for driving they are set given the level of impairment on somones ability to preform a task compared to when they have no alcohol in thier body.
You mention fatigue, and the effrect that has on a pilots ability, adding alcohol to that would only make it worse.
I accept again what you say about this being a about public transport, but the this legislation makes no distinction between the 2, if you are acting as crew of an aircraft you are covered by it.
The alternative is to say that if you hold a PPL, you can't drink but if you hold an public transport one you can....an unacceptable diffenrence by any standard.
It may be that the CAA have been influenced by the actions of others in the GA in other countries, but the end result is the same, the legislation exists, and isn't going to go away.
Having established that, then either people have to learn to live with it, or do something positive to prevent themselves being caught out, one way to get your own test kit. The other is for employers to make everyones life easier by providing the facility for staff to test themselves before they are in a position where they could be committing an offence.
One thing I think is obvious and hasn't really been mentioned is that any pilot or ATCO and probably engineer caught committing this offence is stands a very high chance of going to prison, because of the position of high responsibilty and public desire for thier transport needs to be in safe hands. In that you arn't alone, the same would happen to a train driver, or ship's captain.
Estimates of how many pilots have a drink problem are probably wrong yes, but are based on the population as a whole. In any group of people there will be some that can't control thier desire for a drink. Pilots are no exception.
I had read your previous post, perhaps I put it badly. The CAA asked for the legislation, no idea why, and from what you have posted there seems to be no logical reason for it.
The CAA would not have had input into the BAC levels set, any more than than DVLA would have into the drink drive limits. That would have been done by advice from the Dept of Heath (or whatever its called this week). Like the limits for driving they are set given the level of impairment on somones ability to preform a task compared to when they have no alcohol in thier body.
You mention fatigue, and the effrect that has on a pilots ability, adding alcohol to that would only make it worse.
I accept again what you say about this being a about public transport, but the this legislation makes no distinction between the 2, if you are acting as crew of an aircraft you are covered by it.
The alternative is to say that if you hold a PPL, you can't drink but if you hold an public transport one you can....an unacceptable diffenrence by any standard.
It may be that the CAA have been influenced by the actions of others in the GA in other countries, but the end result is the same, the legislation exists, and isn't going to go away.
Having established that, then either people have to learn to live with it, or do something positive to prevent themselves being caught out, one way to get your own test kit. The other is for employers to make everyones life easier by providing the facility for staff to test themselves before they are in a position where they could be committing an offence.
One thing I think is obvious and hasn't really been mentioned is that any pilot or ATCO and probably engineer caught committing this offence is stands a very high chance of going to prison, because of the position of high responsibilty and public desire for thier transport needs to be in safe hands. In that you arn't alone, the same would happen to a train driver, or ship's captain.
Estimates of how many pilots have a drink problem are probably wrong yes, but are based on the population as a whole. In any group of people there will be some that can't control thier desire for a drink. Pilots are no exception.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: everywhere
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fire Wall,
since this thread started I have been surprised of how often the real message does not seem to get through to readers because of misspelling or language barriers between native and non-native English language speakers.
I kindly ask you to think it over, and submit any fruitful thoughts you have on this matter. Otherwise it is avoiding the question on what acts could be done for the fact that there is a n rate of alcoholics and alcohol abusers in professional pilots and something or someone should stop them before getting up there whilst under influence, or suffering a hangover.
By "getting up there" I mean operating an aircraft.
Communication by writing is difficult sometimes,
at Air Sober
I try to say it more clearly this time:
I decided to join this forum after following it since the 51-year old Finnish airline pilot Heikki Tallila, who by that time was employed by Finnair, got arrested on 23 August 2004 at Manchester Airport, when about to start an Air Scandic flight to Dalaman, Turkey.
Speak slower, words twice?
Air Sober
since this thread started I have been surprised of how often the real message does not seem to get through to readers because of misspelling or language barriers between native and non-native English language speakers.
I kindly ask you to think it over, and submit any fruitful thoughts you have on this matter. Otherwise it is avoiding the question on what acts could be done for the fact that there is a n rate of alcoholics and alcohol abusers in professional pilots and something or someone should stop them before getting up there whilst under influence, or suffering a hangover.
By "getting up there" I mean operating an aircraft.
Communication by writing is difficult sometimes,
at Air Sober
I try to say it more clearly this time:
I decided to join this forum after following it since the 51-year old Finnish airline pilot Heikki Tallila, who by that time was employed by Finnair, got arrested on 23 August 2004 at Manchester Airport, when about to start an Air Scandic flight to Dalaman, Turkey.
Speak slower, words twice?
Air Sober
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the Finnair guy gets six months in jail for being 2.5 times the limit, what's gonnna happen to the Brunei Captain arrested at London Heathrow?
I heard he was 6 x the limit.
I heard he was 6 x the limit.
Just a numbered other
selfin
I'm sorry, pal, but I can't let that one go by.
On what do you base this insulting slur on a profession which has managed to kill 0 (that's zero) people in living memory through alcohol abuse?
It would be conservative to say about 30% of commercial pilots have a propensity to abuse alcohol.
On what do you base this insulting slur on a profession which has managed to kill 0 (that's zero) people in living memory through alcohol abuse?
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Selfin, please go and find somewhere else to argue your case. You appear to be one of the 13.2% of non-pilots who have an opinion on 26.8% of matters relating to the 99.9999% of professional pilots in the UK who have never had an accident that was related to alcohol. Your constant reference to statistics to bolster a weak argument that shows no insight into the debate being conducted here just goes to prove that 89.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
As for someone claiming to have a relative who is an alcoholic pilot and is regularly endangering many others by working whilst under the influence and then coming on here claiming that no one is doing anything about it, what is your point? Why not take the initiative and do something about it yourself?
Most large airlines have systems in place where colleagues who have a drink or drug problem can be assisted by their peers through confidential reporting and a support/recovery system. It isn't the be all, end all solution but it has a reported success rate where it is in place.
As for working with colleagues who are under the influence? I have never come across this problem. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist but then I've never had a real engine failure whilst working and I do know that they exist. I don't come up with statistics made up at random though. Maybe I should. In my experience, 0.0% of pilots are alcoholics because I've never had to work with one. Same applies to engine failures.
The debate on here should be focused on the arbitrary limits as they have been set by the authorities and the methods of detecting them. What we appear to have is the usual misinterpretation of "drunk" and "over the limit" which can be two very different things. Of course, it suits those without a real understanding of the issues to resort to more emotive terminology with a sprinkling of ad-hoc statistics.
As for someone claiming to have a relative who is an alcoholic pilot and is regularly endangering many others by working whilst under the influence and then coming on here claiming that no one is doing anything about it, what is your point? Why not take the initiative and do something about it yourself?
Most large airlines have systems in place where colleagues who have a drink or drug problem can be assisted by their peers through confidential reporting and a support/recovery system. It isn't the be all, end all solution but it has a reported success rate where it is in place.
As for working with colleagues who are under the influence? I have never come across this problem. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist but then I've never had a real engine failure whilst working and I do know that they exist. I don't come up with statistics made up at random though. Maybe I should. In my experience, 0.0% of pilots are alcoholics because I've never had to work with one. Same applies to engine failures.
The debate on here should be focused on the arbitrary limits as they have been set by the authorities and the methods of detecting them. What we appear to have is the usual misinterpretation of "drunk" and "over the limit" which can be two very different things. Of course, it suits those without a real understanding of the issues to resort to more emotive terminology with a sprinkling of ad-hoc statistics.