The Arrogance Of Britannia 034A
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Its much better if you are nice. Coming into a certain London airport one night and there were only 2 aircraft around - us and an unknown, ahead of us. We were slowed day way early, and just accepted what ATC were saying. Out of interest, we asked what the type was that was ahead (we were in a jet). ATC then told us it was a Shorts and explained that he didn't have enough room to get us in ahead, even though he knew we were the faster aircraft. I said this was no problem, and the Shorts guy then joined in the banter too, apologising and saying that they would pedal as fast as they could! No one got annoyed or stressed and we only landed a couple of minutes later than we would have done anyway.
You hear people hassling ATC alot on the radio, and you just hope that ATC don't help them when they are just being plain rude.
You hear people hassling ATC alot on the radio, and you just hope that ATC don't help them when they are just being plain rude.
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NoD
I agree, slagging match, darned awful thing envy.
RE RASH- Recent rain shower
Expeditedescent, London controllers or "Non standard R.T'ers" as we like to call them.
This is a generalization, not fair and not accurate, but occurs day in day out.
Please don't generalise, London ATCO's in the main are the best, inturn so are Britannia Pilots.
I agree, slagging match, darned awful thing envy.
RE RASH- Recent rain shower
Expeditedescent, London controllers or "Non standard R.T'ers" as we like to call them.
This is a generalization, not fair and not accurate, but occurs day in day out.
Please don't generalise, London ATCO's in the main are the best, inturn so are Britannia Pilots.
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one four sick
Whilst I agree with the sentiment of what you say, don't you think it's a bit mean to identify this guy so specifically, whilst remaining anonymous yourself ? Management read this and they’ll know exactly who he is. Also, you don’t know what other stress he has in his life. Yes I know we shouldn’t bring it to work, but it happens. Personally, I find this kind of stuff fun to listen to!
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Have to agree with blueloo on the matter of the dreaded ‘thuh’.
The (not just Speedbird) ‘thuh’ grates with me too. If they could hear what utter tossers they sound to the rest of ‘mere us’, I’m sure they’d drop it poste haste.
Hate to say it on this hallowed day when we’re all thanking the Poms for saving democracy etc, (and I do, quite sincerely), but the offenders seem almost always to be a ‘certain type of Englishman’ who’d probably consider themselves of the errrr… ‘officer class’ – to judge by ‘thuh’ accents at least.
When I head someone saying it, I find myself saying “‘Thuh’ London, this is…”
The (not just Speedbird) ‘thuh’ grates with me too. If they could hear what utter tossers they sound to the rest of ‘mere us’, I’m sure they’d drop it poste haste.
Hate to say it on this hallowed day when we’re all thanking the Poms for saving democracy etc, (and I do, quite sincerely), but the offenders seem almost always to be a ‘certain type of Englishman’ who’d probably consider themselves of the errrr… ‘officer class’ – to judge by ‘thuh’ accents at least.
When I head someone saying it, I find myself saying “‘Thuh’ London, this is…”
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Had similar experience at a certain Scandi airport. There was a consistent favoring of a national lo-co carrier, which didn't really bother us all that much - delays were kept reasonably in check.
However, one morning, we were coming in from the north (landing from south to north). 20 NM N of said aerodrome, we were asked to reduce to 180 KIAS (ATR - but still...). Not a single other aircraft on the freq., neither on TCAS. When we passed 16 NM south of the airport, we finally got our bogie on TCAS - sure enough, the local lo-co coming from the south in a 737. We were subsequently turned onto a 20 NM final and asked to reduce further to 160 KIAS.
Now, instead of lashing out at the controller in question, we had a talk with our fleet mgr, and ended up having a civilised chat to APCH at the aerodrome in question. We took the opportunity to explain them something about the deceleration / tailwind potential of our aircraft and expressed our desire to play ball (i.s.o. being no. 4 after 3 helicopters and having a 25 NM final (has happened
)). After that - problems almost disappeared. Now they are happy to supply ammended missed approach instructions and turn us onto 7 NM final at 240 KIAS winds permitting. A lot more easy for us - we simply say what kind of final we are looking for when checking in, and they try to use our t/p flexibility as the "wild card". Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.
But they are trying - and that goes a long way! So talking calmly and in a respectful voice to the people you are dealing with does help.
Being a major p*in in the ae will only serve to demonstrate your own lack of leadership & situational awareness.
Lets stay polite out there, eh?
Brgds,
Empty
However, one morning, we were coming in from the north (landing from south to north). 20 NM N of said aerodrome, we were asked to reduce to 180 KIAS (ATR - but still...). Not a single other aircraft on the freq., neither on TCAS. When we passed 16 NM south of the airport, we finally got our bogie on TCAS - sure enough, the local lo-co coming from the south in a 737. We were subsequently turned onto a 20 NM final and asked to reduce further to 160 KIAS.
Now, instead of lashing out at the controller in question, we had a talk with our fleet mgr, and ended up having a civilised chat to APCH at the aerodrome in question. We took the opportunity to explain them something about the deceleration / tailwind potential of our aircraft and expressed our desire to play ball (i.s.o. being no. 4 after 3 helicopters and having a 25 NM final (has happened
)). After that - problems almost disappeared. Now they are happy to supply ammended missed approach instructions and turn us onto 7 NM final at 240 KIAS winds permitting. A lot more easy for us - we simply say what kind of final we are looking for when checking in, and they try to use our t/p flexibility as the "wild card". Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.But they are trying - and that goes a long way! So talking calmly and in a respectful voice to the people you are dealing with does help.
Being a major p*in in the ae will only serve to demonstrate your own lack of leadership & situational awareness.Lets stay polite out there, eh?
Brgds,
Empty
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AG, your story reminds me of a similar night-time scenario. I was apologising to an RAF VC10 (Aaaaaascot Blah) because I had to delay him behind a "Shed". Quick as a flash, the "Shed" came back with:
"I'm a TURBO Shed and I'm carrying your newspapers. Confirm reduce speed to 120?"
"I'm a TURBO Shed and I'm carrying your newspapers. Confirm reduce speed to 120?"
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I have been trying to thrash the "London it's THE WunderJet 123" out of my colleagues a thousand times without much success so perhaps if I show them this thread I may at last have some clout!
While we're on the subject of tw*ts how many of you Scottish controllers can be ars*d with Glasgow outbounds PERSISTENTLY, like a CONVEYER BELT asking ".......'morning, any chance of an early right turn?" (in crawling voice). It drives me up the wall just listening in especially when it is blatantly obvious the controller is saturated with calls and needs the SIDs to keep his picture together. Controllers: you can eradicate this menace by being a bit more abrupt with your answer !!!!
How popular a thread do you think we'd have entitled "The irritating things we hear on the wireless"?!
While we're on the subject of tw*ts how many of you Scottish controllers can be ars*d with Glasgow outbounds PERSISTENTLY, like a CONVEYER BELT asking ".......'morning, any chance of an early right turn?" (in crawling voice). It drives me up the wall just listening in especially when it is blatantly obvious the controller is saturated with calls and needs the SIDs to keep his picture together. Controllers: you can eradicate this menace by being a bit more abrupt with your answer !!!!
How popular a thread do you think we'd have entitled "The irritating things we hear on the wireless"?!
But it is the Speedbird 123 which is calling, just as it could also be Delta's 456, as favoured by the Americans. I really do not undertstand what you are all fussing about. I have no problem with either.
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I feel that some people have misinterprated one four sick's original post.
The Brit A/C was not being asked to slow because of the Iberia ( and preferances for same nationality carriers, although I'm not saying that doesn't happen) but because of the backlog of aircaft caused by the published approach speeds.
This seems to me, a rather strange thing to get frustrated by. Surely airmanship and situational awareness would have made him understand why the preceding two aircraft were slowing.
Unfortunately it does open the door for generalisation but I don't believe this indicative of Brit pilots, the ones I know at least. Who are all very professional, courteous people, who aren't quite as impatient as their colleague.
Regards
le loup garou
The Brit A/C was not being asked to slow because of the Iberia ( and preferances for same nationality carriers, although I'm not saying that doesn't happen) but because of the backlog of aircaft caused by the published approach speeds.
This seems to me, a rather strange thing to get frustrated by. Surely airmanship and situational awareness would have made him understand why the preceding two aircraft were slowing.
Unfortunately it does open the door for generalisation but I don't believe this indicative of Brit pilots, the ones I know at least. Who are all very professional, courteous people, who aren't quite as impatient as their colleague.
Regards
le loup garou
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Ojuka,
Not wishing to rain on your parade, at busy times it actually helps Glasgow out when we're on 05 if the jets can go right due to the amount of slower traffic we have outbound to the highlands and islands.
The only time traffic will not get a right turn is because of a large amount of edinburghj outbounds which conflict with anything turning right at or befoore the GLG and departing into TMA airspace.
As a Glasgow Controller, I will try and get you the most expeditious route, especially when it means I can get that ATP or Saab out to the west 2 minutes behind you on a direct route.
I remember a particular incident a few weeks ago when a BAW shuttle asked for a right turn off 05 from the GLG, I co=ordinated with Scottish and got him GLG right turn direct MCT and then he changed his mind and said he needed to fly the SID due to being early???
I apprecitae that timings are paramount but why the hell ask for the early turn to save miles, increase my workload to get it for you and then change your mind????
Not wishing to rain on your parade, at busy times it actually helps Glasgow out when we're on 05 if the jets can go right due to the amount of slower traffic we have outbound to the highlands and islands.
The only time traffic will not get a right turn is because of a large amount of edinburghj outbounds which conflict with anything turning right at or befoore the GLG and departing into TMA airspace.
As a Glasgow Controller, I will try and get you the most expeditious route, especially when it means I can get that ATP or Saab out to the west 2 minutes behind you on a direct route.
I remember a particular incident a few weeks ago when a BAW shuttle asked for a right turn off 05 from the GLG, I co=ordinated with Scottish and got him GLG right turn direct MCT and then he changed his mind and said he needed to fly the SID due to being early???
I apprecitae that timings are paramount but why the hell ask for the early turn to save miles, increase my workload to get it for you and then change your mind????
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Expeditedecent says
I am not sure what experience you have in flying through Foreign controlled airspaces but what I have notice as an ex regularly French airspace user is as follow.... Ask for a direct and in 80%of the cases they will give it to you. Don't ask and in 100% of the cases and you won't get it. Today, I fly for Britannia and I still use it. Sometimes It works, sometimes it doesn't but I never thought it as a rude request. As a matter of fact I have asked my partner (Maastricht Area Controller) and she doesn't seem to think it is a problem as long as it is requested in a nice manner and available.
As for those who believe that Britannia is a pompous airline all I can say is join them, meet the guy/gals and make your mind up. 2 seconds RT seem very short to make up a fair idea of anyone's personality. Plus, I would like to add that as a non British born pilot I have always felt comfortable and happy flying with this now long time serving Britannia "Nigels". As much as I would like to have their command of the English language, I doubt I would be able to raise the challenge... Which perhaps will suit those who are complaining about an apparent sounding arrogance request. Of course I doubt it will statisfy the ones who feel threatened by foreigners. Ho well, you can't win!
Back to Expeditedecent's comment.... you say, you remember once a Britannia blah blah.... Big deal! Surely with your vast experience you must also remember at least in one occasion when a BA,AF,LF,SR,AA,..... was rude to you. Why don't you tell us about it so we can too get a "fair" idea of what these guys are like.
T*ssers everywhere, that s for sure and Britannia is no the only factory making unit.
Britannia Airways (Otherwise known as "Can we Airways" because of their incessant requests for direct/higher/lower etc etc) were the airline I disliked most while controlling.
As for those who believe that Britannia is a pompous airline all I can say is join them, meet the guy/gals and make your mind up. 2 seconds RT seem very short to make up a fair idea of anyone's personality. Plus, I would like to add that as a non British born pilot I have always felt comfortable and happy flying with this now long time serving Britannia "Nigels". As much as I would like to have their command of the English language, I doubt I would be able to raise the challenge... Which perhaps will suit those who are complaining about an apparent sounding arrogance request. Of course I doubt it will statisfy the ones who feel threatened by foreigners. Ho well, you can't win!
Back to Expeditedecent's comment.... you say, you remember once a Britannia blah blah.... Big deal! Surely with your vast experience you must also remember at least in one occasion when a BA,AF,LF,SR,AA,..... was rude to you. Why don't you tell us about it so we can too get a "fair" idea of what these guys are like.
T*ssers everywhere, that s for sure and Britannia is no the only factory making unit.
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For many years BY has, sadly, had a reputation for assuming that they were so much better than any other charter carrier, in all departments. As far as flight crew are concerned, I wonder if the arrogance that they constantly demonstrate is tied up with the fact that most of them are ex-RAF pilots and they feel that they are a cut above us lowly commercial trained guys. They may be right...after all, they brought 20 years experience of flying Chipmunks into the industry!!!
Ah - but ex-mil aren't always the same!
Having flown a '10 from somewhere in US/Canada to Turnhouse, dropped off the pax and freight, we were all set to push tits and head back to Brize except that we couldn't get a GAT ATC slot until after CDT would have expired. Get on GSM phone to military radar to arrange OAT "We're busy with an exercise and can't take you...." Told him that yes, he darn well would take us as a scheduled task takes priority over playing little war games. Still refused, so got airborne VFR thanks to the flexible and friendly folk at Turnhouse and set off south under a FIS. Came up on Jock Mil's UHF initial contact frequency and requested RIS, climb etc. Huffy controller eventually agreed. Shame that it wasn't quite good enough to have come all the way back VFR, otherwise I'd have flown us back underneath the airways enjoying the view....
Probably not something which "Thuh" birdseed or other people-tube operators would have been able to get away with for obvious reasons.
Being rude to ATC doesn't help. In my view, civil ATC are notably more 'civil' than some of the abrupt and aggressive military ATCOs - with whom it is often necessary to stand one's ground. The UK has a Gold Standard of ATC; it was always a delight to work them after coming back from certain directions to dear old Blighty!
Having flown a '10 from somewhere in US/Canada to Turnhouse, dropped off the pax and freight, we were all set to push tits and head back to Brize except that we couldn't get a GAT ATC slot until after CDT would have expired. Get on GSM phone to military radar to arrange OAT "We're busy with an exercise and can't take you...." Told him that yes, he darn well would take us as a scheduled task takes priority over playing little war games. Still refused, so got airborne VFR thanks to the flexible and friendly folk at Turnhouse and set off south under a FIS. Came up on Jock Mil's UHF initial contact frequency and requested RIS, climb etc. Huffy controller eventually agreed. Shame that it wasn't quite good enough to have come all the way back VFR, otherwise I'd have flown us back underneath the airways enjoying the view....
Probably not something which "Thuh" birdseed or other people-tube operators would have been able to get away with for obvious reasons.
Being rude to ATC doesn't help. In my view, civil ATC are notably more 'civil' than some of the abrupt and aggressive military ATCOs - with whom it is often necessary to stand one's ground. The UK has a Gold Standard of ATC; it was always a delight to work them after coming back from certain directions to dear old Blighty!
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Dogma,
You have to try to UNDERSTAND what the topic is ABOUT.
FapsOne
Agree, touché.
unwiseowl
Fair enough, but he may not do it again! What are you gonna gain by knowing who I am anyway? Who are you?
le loup garou
Spot on answer.
caniplaywithmadness
Damn, so it wasn't a BY this time.
AMEX
Just joining Britannia means a 13 page application form with questions like: What DRIVING OFFENCES have you had in the last 7 years, please give details.
Sorry, but that just about does it for me.
openfly
Possibly quite correct.
You have to try to UNDERSTAND what the topic is ABOUT.
FapsOne
Agree, touché.
unwiseowl
Fair enough, but he may not do it again! What are you gonna gain by knowing who I am anyway? Who are you?
le loup garou
Spot on answer.
caniplaywithmadness
Damn, so it wasn't a BY this time.
AMEX
Just joining Britannia means a 13 page application form with questions like: What DRIVING OFFENCES have you had in the last 7 years, please give details.
Sorry, but that just about does it for me.
openfly
Possibly quite correct.
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One four sick,
"UNDERSTAND the topic" What's to understand, you obviously have not read all my posts.
What is clear is your dislike of Britannia and BA.
As I said earlier, Chief Pilot, Britannia Airways Luton LU2 9ND
Openfly,
The number of ex-RAF pilots in Britannia is small. In the sixty’s and seventies perhaps, but today it's only about 10- 15% in total.
As for being the best, well! I would not say we are only a cut above charter, we are a cut above the lot
"UNDERSTAND the topic" What's to understand, you obviously have not read all my posts.
What is clear is your dislike of Britannia and BA.
As I said earlier, Chief Pilot, Britannia Airways Luton LU2 9ND
Openfly,
The number of ex-RAF pilots in Britannia is small. In the sixty’s and seventies perhaps, but today it's only about 10- 15% in total.
As for being the best, well! I would not say we are only a cut above charter, we are a cut above the lot
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Dogma,
You are running a big risk of misunderstanding what people say.
I am NOT anti BY and have never even mentioned BA.
I have loads of friends in both, but the arrogance of this guy had to be heard on the RT.
You weren't there, so just relax and bear with us.
There is communication now behind the scenes about this, you don't need to give me the address, anyway, I don't do snailmail anymore!
one four sick
You are running a big risk of misunderstanding what people say.
I am NOT anti BY and have never even mentioned BA.
I have loads of friends in both, but the arrogance of this guy had to be heard on the RT.
You weren't there, so just relax and bear with us.
There is communication now behind the scenes about this, you don't need to give me the address, anyway, I don't do snailmail anymore!
one four sick
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One Four Sick:
"just joining Britannia means a 13 page application form with questions like......"
Ah, The real reason for your bitterness shows its ugly face. Never mind, give it 6 months and try again. Until then start practicing your arrogant Britannia RT voice.
"just joining Britannia means a 13 page application form with questions like......"
Ah, The real reason for your bitterness shows its ugly face. Never mind, give it 6 months and try again. Until then start practicing your arrogant Britannia RT voice.
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"Communication behind the scenes"
Don't delude yourself! Unless you make a specific complaint in writing, snail mail or e-mail, I guarantee you absolutely nothing will come of this.
Though it does not excuse rudeness on the wireless, the blatant Spanish prioritising of their carriers make me want to be very rude. My comments would be far harsher than "peddle faster"
Don't delude yourself! Unless you make a specific complaint in writing, snail mail or e-mail, I guarantee you absolutely nothing will come of this.
Though it does not excuse rudeness on the wireless, the blatant Spanish prioritising of their carriers make me want to be very rude. My comments would be far harsher than "peddle faster"
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dogma
I am afraid your post sums it up.
Even if they had a 50 page application form they would still get a load of t*****s. Probably more.
openfly and beagle
Agree with your views. Military agression and arrogance has no place in civilian avaition
I am afraid your post sums it up.
Even if they had a 50 page application form they would still get a load of t*****s. Probably more.
openfly and beagle
Agree with your views. Military agression and arrogance has no place in civilian avaition