The Arrogance Of Britannia 034A
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two speed prop 3
So you think that just because I know about the BY application procedure, I have tried, failed and now am bitter as a result.
Are you as good as this when it comes to choosing the lottery numbers???
Are you really THAT simple?
Arrogance is intolerable, particulary the way it sounded, so get with it please.
Dogma
QUOTE: "Don't delude yourself! Unless you make a specific complaint in writing, snail mail or e-mail, I guarantee you absolutely nothing will come of this."
This thread has "come of this". Good enough for starters.
"Even some of us old MFC boys have got into Britannia"
I would have never guessed you're BY.
josephshankes
Good post there.
Bird On
Or... OFF????
I bet you would have been horrified to hear the Hooray Henry as I did, just use a bit of imagination.
All you guys that have either missed the point, or just didn't like it, the fact is it happened, and it shouldn't have.
The fact that it has brought out a load of comments is why PPRUNE works for me.
I think I have said enough, now I'll leave you to debate the rest.
one four sick
So you think that just because I know about the BY application procedure, I have tried, failed and now am bitter as a result.
Are you as good as this when it comes to choosing the lottery numbers???
Are you really THAT simple?
Arrogance is intolerable, particulary the way it sounded, so get with it please.
Dogma
QUOTE: "Don't delude yourself! Unless you make a specific complaint in writing, snail mail or e-mail, I guarantee you absolutely nothing will come of this."
This thread has "come of this". Good enough for starters.
"Even some of us old MFC boys have got into Britannia"
I would have never guessed you're BY.
josephshankes
Good post there.
Bird On
Or... OFF????
I bet you would have been horrified to hear the Hooray Henry as I did, just use a bit of imagination.
All you guys that have either missed the point, or just didn't like it, the fact is it happened, and it shouldn't have.
The fact that it has brought out a load of comments is why PPRUNE works for me.
I think I have said enough, now I'll leave you to debate the rest.
one four sick
As for being the best, well! I would not say we are only a cut above charter, we are a cut above the lot
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Dogma -
What are you on about??? What's this utter tosh? There is a real problem here with BY and I for one am beginning to think it may have been YOU this discussion is all about!
Where is your Carma man???
What are you on about??? What's this utter tosh? There is a real problem here with BY and I for one am beginning to think it may have been YOU this discussion is all about!
Where is your Carma man???
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Dogma,
The "insulting RT" was on approach to LEAL, ALC!
So indeed, you might not have been to LEMG, but did you go to Alicante???
Now seriously folks, In my opinion, things are seriously being blown out of proportions here, not worthy of our profession.
It is evident that all of us must communicate with ATC in a most "gentlemanly "fashion, but we ALL know that we are sometimes less so on the frequency. I am sure that everyone here with some experience has been in that alley before, and although not professional nor polite, it is only human.
This incident might not have been good airmanship, and indeed even bad CRM, which should include ATC in my opinion, but 3 pages about a stressed BY skipper??!
Knowing LEAL's ATC people, they would for sure give that BY flight some small "inconveniences" if they were really pissed off by this.
By the way, my experience tells me that it are the Swiss guys who are quite prone to being "snotty" and "cocky".
Maybe it's culture related...
The "insulting RT" was on approach to LEAL, ALC!
So indeed, you might not have been to LEMG, but did you go to Alicante???
Now seriously folks, In my opinion, things are seriously being blown out of proportions here, not worthy of our profession.
It is evident that all of us must communicate with ATC in a most "gentlemanly "fashion, but we ALL know that we are sometimes less so on the frequency. I am sure that everyone here with some experience has been in that alley before, and although not professional nor polite, it is only human.
This incident might not have been good airmanship, and indeed even bad CRM, which should include ATC in my opinion, but 3 pages about a stressed BY skipper??!
Knowing LEAL's ATC people, they would for sure give that BY flight some small "inconveniences" if they were really pissed off by this.
By the way, my experience tells me that it are the Swiss guys who are quite prone to being "snotty" and "cocky".
Maybe it's culture related...
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In my experience ex mil officers treat ATC as a service doled out by juniors for your benefit. "Don't let them boss you around" I was told once. "Tell them what you want, they are there to serve you".
Civilian pilots seem to treat ATC as your partner in the job of getting from A to B.
Suggest BY R/T may have been from the former school of thought, especially since they were only Spaniards.
Stu
Civilian pilots seem to treat ATC as your partner in the job of getting from A to B.
Suggest BY R/T may have been from the former school of thought, especially since they were only Spaniards.
Stu
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For what it's worth, my experience has been that of course the great majority of crews are OK. But, if I'm going to have pushy types they will more generally be Brits, Dutch or Belgian (both sched and charter). I have also found that a larger number of new generation ATC colleagues show a lack of knowledge and as a consequence a good deal less tollerance to pilots and their operational constraints/pressures/workload. We live in a "ME ME ME and SCREW YOU" world now.
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Unfortunately Hotel Tango, you are all too correct.
The ME, ME, ME attitude with regard to ATC communications results in sub-par safety margins, in my opinion.
Wonder just why it is so hard for a few 'superior' pilots to just let the controller do the job for what he is paid for...rocket science it ain't.
The ME, ME, ME attitude with regard to ATC communications results in sub-par safety margins, in my opinion.
Wonder just why it is so hard for a few 'superior' pilots to just let the controller do the job for what he is paid for...rocket science it ain't.
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HT might be correct about our changing society but don't make a comment that the pushy types are mainly British/Belgium and Dutch.
You see them all over the f***** world from every nation and or culture.
Pilots Judgement is the only comment I want to make, if it's not too busy then ask in all fairness for a shortcut, I'd like to get home and want to experience the hot day Dogma is talking about
) grinz
Cheers, going out
You see them all over the f***** world from every nation and or culture.
Pilots Judgement is the only comment I want to make, if it's not too busy then ask in all fairness for a shortcut, I'd like to get home and want to experience the hot day Dogma is talking about
) grinzCheers, going out
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Expeditedescent:
I humbly suggest that instead of using the frequency to administer said lashing, a simple '<callsign> descend and maintain...' would have conveyed the message, traffic permitting!
(also conveying an unspoken 'and shut up about it or I'll give you ten minutes of 'amusing' vectors as well...')
R1
After three calls from him I eventually and for the only time had to deliver a verbal tongue lashing...
(also conveying an unspoken 'and shut up about it or I'll give you ten minutes of 'amusing' vectors as well...')
R1
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Sheesh, I'm surprised that posting my own experiences has drawn such ire.
Sorry if anyone doesn't like it but it's fact.
R1, had I any levels available I may have used one, however my transmission was brief, direct and achieved said goal.
AMEX,
I don't have a problem with asking for direct at the right time. When the frequency is going balls out it's a bit stupid to ask, if it suits the controllers plan he/she will have already issued it.
Comparing Maastricht UAC and London TC is a bit disingenuous, in London TC if a direct is available it will be given without asking more often then not. The constraints of airspace and procedures make such opportunities very limited however.
The title "Can we Airways" is one not used by me, but has evolved over the years and is used frequently by ATC staff when BY comes up in conversation. Why is that...............Do we all have some kind of vendetta against BY?
The fact is AMEX, in reference to:
"you say, you remember once a Britannia blah blah.... Big deal! Surely with your vast experience you must also remember at least in one occasion when a BA,AF,LF,SR,AA,..... was rude to you. Why don't you tell us about it so we can too get a "fair" idea of what these guys are like."
No other airline has acted in my experience in such a way as that BY crew. So I can't regail you with any other examples, I also guess you did not read the MYT crew exchange I gave at the end of my post.
Yet another example of someone who doesn't like what someone is saying so has to resort to attacking.
That is my experience of dealing with BY, I'm sorry you don't like it or agree with it, but that's how it is.
Sorry if anyone doesn't like it but it's fact.
R1, had I any levels available I may have used one, however my transmission was brief, direct and achieved said goal.
AMEX,
I don't have a problem with asking for direct at the right time. When the frequency is going balls out it's a bit stupid to ask, if it suits the controllers plan he/she will have already issued it.
Comparing Maastricht UAC and London TC is a bit disingenuous, in London TC if a direct is available it will be given without asking more often then not. The constraints of airspace and procedures make such opportunities very limited however.
The title "Can we Airways" is one not used by me, but has evolved over the years and is used frequently by ATC staff when BY comes up in conversation. Why is that...............Do we all have some kind of vendetta against BY?
The fact is AMEX, in reference to:
"you say, you remember once a Britannia blah blah.... Big deal! Surely with your vast experience you must also remember at least in one occasion when a BA,AF,LF,SR,AA,..... was rude to you. Why don't you tell us about it so we can too get a "fair" idea of what these guys are like."
No other airline has acted in my experience in such a way as that BY crew. So I can't regail you with any other examples, I also guess you did not read the MYT crew exchange I gave at the end of my post.
Yet another example of someone who doesn't like what someone is saying so has to resort to attacking.
That is my experience of dealing with BY, I'm sorry you don't like it or agree with it, but that's how it is.
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Stu
I had the same experience with an ex military trainer years ago
his words " dont say thank you they just doing their job "
That was during my GFT's training years ago in a small airfield (non busy)
I still remember it
About the BY maybe he had a bad day.....we all do
and I am sure you can find good or bad operators with good or bad CRM in all the airlines regardless of country, culture etc
I had the same experience with an ex military trainer years ago
his words " dont say thank you they just doing their job "
That was during my GFT's training years ago in a small airfield (non busy)
I still remember it
About the BY maybe he had a bad day.....we all do
and I am sure you can find good or bad operators with good or bad CRM in all the airlines regardless of country, culture etc
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One Four Sick,
If you were on an 18 mile final to ALC with an Iberia BEHIND you, you can bet your bottom dollar you were holding them up!
The 10-9 states the speeds for the localiser interception etc, but honestly, who doesn't try and get the speed restriction lifted. So IMHO, if you were no 1, and at the 10-9 speeds you were slow.
Expeditedescent,
I bet you drive a big red car!
Why dont you just go and get your pilots licence, then you could stop having to tell us how big it is.
A "tongue lashing", get a grip man!
If you were on an 18 mile final to ALC with an Iberia BEHIND you, you can bet your bottom dollar you were holding them up!
The 10-9 states the speeds for the localiser interception etc, but honestly, who doesn't try and get the speed restriction lifted. So IMHO, if you were no 1, and at the 10-9 speeds you were slow.
Expeditedescent,
I bet you drive a big red car!
Why dont you just go and get your pilots licence, then you could stop having to tell us how big it is.
A "tongue lashing", get a grip man!
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bundybear,
I don't really understand your assumptions, but just don't try to read too much into it.
We were number 1 at some 18 miles from the runway - fact.
We were doing 180 KTS - fact.
We were doing 180KTS to 4 miles as asked by the controller - fact.
There were other airplanes in the sky - fact.
There were other airplanes on the ground - fact.
End of complication, don't try to make up another story, just understand that the arrogant driver was just that - ARROGANT, perhaps for no reason at all.
I have not ever even tried to hint as to WHY he may have been arrogant, as I don't really care.
You should like me, accept that there are different speeds and positions in the sky and we all have to fit into it one way or another, so that arrogance and haughtiness is futile.
one four suck
I don't really understand your assumptions, but just don't try to read too much into it.
We were number 1 at some 18 miles from the runway - fact.
We were doing 180 KTS - fact.
We were doing 180KTS to 4 miles as asked by the controller - fact.
There were other airplanes in the sky - fact.
There were other airplanes on the ground - fact.
End of complication, don't try to make up another story, just understand that the arrogant driver was just that - ARROGANT, perhaps for no reason at all.
I have not ever even tried to hint as to WHY he may have been arrogant, as I don't really care.
You should like me, accept that there are different speeds and positions in the sky and we all have to fit into it one way or another, so that arrogance and haughtiness is futile.
one four suck