Emirates emergency landing in JNB
the lunatic fringe
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CAP 56 keeps deleting his posts. For instance, He posted one about the Chief Pilot being removed because of the Emirates CAA. Or words to that effect. 15 minutes later he removed it.
All very confusing.
All very confusing.
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PPRuNe Towers ?????????????
Did you by any chance delete my post from this morning wishing CAP56 well, or did I accidently do it myself, because if you did it then whilst you may have "control" then by jingoes dingo you really have taken the cake on this one.
goodday.
Did you by any chance delete my post from this morning wishing CAP56 well, or did I accidently do it myself, because if you did it then whilst you may have "control" then by jingoes dingo you really have taken the cake on this one.
goodday.
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L337
Believe me, that it is exactely what has happened.
And if TCK was not up to speed, you guys should be happy about it.
If you like my posts, then copy them or quote them, if not then ignore them.
I will have my final say on this issue shortly. Just checking some cultural values on stopping distances on the A 340 using reversers only.
I am almost sure you can get the A 340 slowed down to around 60 kts using reversers only in less than 2500m. Good to know, if I would on it I would make sure I knew what I can do with it.
Any crew flying this model should have a good idea about that, since they do it after every landing. With such a performing wing and approach speeds at 1.2 V stall thanks to the Flight By Wire this bird should not cause many problems if you loose the anti skid.
Any A 340 drivers who have a cultural value on this?
I think it is a usefull figure since it makes you completely independent of braking action.
Any feedback on this issue ?
Believe me, that it is exactely what has happened.
And if TCK was not up to speed, you guys should be happy about it.
If you like my posts, then copy them or quote them, if not then ignore them.
I will have my final say on this issue shortly. Just checking some cultural values on stopping distances on the A 340 using reversers only.
I am almost sure you can get the A 340 slowed down to around 60 kts using reversers only in less than 2500m. Good to know, if I would on it I would make sure I knew what I can do with it.
Any crew flying this model should have a good idea about that, since they do it after every landing. With such a performing wing and approach speeds at 1.2 V stall thanks to the Flight By Wire this bird should not cause many problems if you loose the anti skid.
Any A 340 drivers who have a cultural value on this?
I think it is a usefull figure since it makes you completely independent of braking action.
Any feedback on this issue ?
Last edited by Cap 56; 10th Jun 2004 at 15:22.
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What is a CULTURAL VALUE?????????
On a post that you removed Cap- you say add 25 knots as the "cultural difference" between Vref full flap and Vref flap 1+F, when I already explained that there is only a 10 KNOT INCREMENT from the QRH.
Oh by the way, landing on 03R in JNB the other day in a 343, (short runway) and not using the brakes and only full reverse down to 70 knots - we were doing about 30 knots as we approached the end of the runway, at near max landing weight. With alternate brakes and FULL reverse to a standstill it would have been a cinch, especially with blown tyres. (loads of drag, basic physics old chap)
I still do not see the what you are trying to say
On a post that you removed Cap- you say add 25 knots as the "cultural difference" between Vref full flap and Vref flap 1+F, when I already explained that there is only a 10 KNOT INCREMENT from the QRH.
Oh by the way, landing on 03R in JNB the other day in a 343, (short runway) and not using the brakes and only full reverse down to 70 knots - we were doing about 30 knots as we approached the end of the runway, at near max landing weight. With alternate brakes and FULL reverse to a standstill it would have been a cinch, especially with blown tyres. (loads of drag, basic physics old chap)
I still do not see the what you are trying to say
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Again Crap 56, your info is incorrect. If you are going to state some tech facts then do at least give the correct ones...
VLS : Lowest Selectable speed.
Represented by the top of an amber strip along the airspeed scale on the PFD.
It is equal to : 1.13 VS, at takeoff
1.18 VS, when the flaps are retracted.
1.23 VS, when in clean configuration. (It remains at this value until landing).
VLS is corrected for Mach effect to maintain a 0.3g buffet margin.
In addition, VLS is increased when the speedbrakes are extended.
So again the mention of 1.2VS is incorrect along with the statement that you can slow and A340 to 60kts on rev only...... cant wait to see the rubbish you produce on that one.....
VLS : Lowest Selectable speed.
Represented by the top of an amber strip along the airspeed scale on the PFD.
It is equal to : 1.13 VS, at takeoff
1.18 VS, when the flaps are retracted.
1.23 VS, when in clean configuration. (It remains at this value until landing).
VLS is corrected for Mach effect to maintain a 0.3g buffet margin.
In addition, VLS is increased when the speedbrakes are extended.
So again the mention of 1.2VS is incorrect along with the statement that you can slow and A340 to 60kts on rev only...... cant wait to see the rubbish you produce on that one.....
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For goodness sake girls, let the issue take its natural course; let the AIIB investigate, then you will know the truth!
It's clear you all want to throw your hanbags at Cap, but you do yourselves no justice whatsoever by your bitchiness.
EK pilots should be proud to be professionals, so get on with it and keep a stiff upper lip. Hearing some of your comments makes me doubt if I should mount one of your airplanes again as a pax. I hope not, because the cabin service is generaly excellent.
You will be judged by this and your comments.
It's clear you all want to throw your hanbags at Cap, but you do yourselves no justice whatsoever by your bitchiness.
EK pilots should be proud to be professionals, so get on with it and keep a stiff upper lip. Hearing some of your comments makes me doubt if I should mount one of your airplanes again as a pax. I hope not, because the cabin service is generaly excellent.
You will be judged by this and your comments.
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Point of Order !!
Gentlemen,
As of now,only one of Cap56's messages remains on this entire thread.
He is busy winding everyone up.
Moderator(s)
Can the system be adapted to leave a blank message in the correct chronological sequence when a user deletes their post? That way at least the rest of us don't look like we are talking to ourselves.
Invictus
As of now,only one of Cap56's messages remains on this entire thread.
He is busy winding everyone up.
Moderator(s)
Can the system be adapted to leave a blank message in the correct chronological sequence when a user deletes their post? That way at least the rest of us don't look like we are talking to ourselves.
Invictus
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Jack,
There are only a couple of EK folks posting on this thread. Some ex EK with an axe to grind and plenty from elsewhere putting their word in. Just as the thread is about and EK situation does not mean only EK are responding to this.
There are only a couple of EK folks posting on this thread. Some ex EK with an axe to grind and plenty from elsewhere putting their word in. Just as the thread is about and EK situation does not mean only EK are responding to this.
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I am so glad everybody walked out safe thats important the important part is to learn from others mistakes.If you look a step to a point after the mistake was made I think he recovered the aircraft well and thatswhat counts ,to be cool and skilled under stress. Captains make mistakes because they are human afterall .It appears many in this forum have assumed that they are perfect.
I get the feeling that the C.G was out by a mile dont know much about the airbus ,or the sidestick ,just a thought ,was the loading rechecked after the aircraft returned.
No point dreaming of the worst , thats not real.
I get the feeling that the C.G was out by a mile dont know much about the airbus ,or the sidestick ,just a thought ,was the loading rechecked after the aircraft returned.
No point dreaming of the worst , thats not real.
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Silky
To argue about the difference between 1.18 or 1.2 Vs is nonsense.
White Night stated himself that it can be done on reversers only, actually you do it on a daily basis. I am quite sure you do not brake alot on the A 340 unless on a very hot day. Realizing that, is what I call airmanship and you carry this with you.
Definitely on a 4400 m runway, no need to touch the brakes until below 60 kts.
Either they completely crippled the gear on T/O, if not they must have done a very bad job on the return.
The key issue on the return for landing is lack of situation awareness (aircraft performance capability) and very likely poor handling.
An approach followed by Go/Around was definitely an option (to asses the condition of the gear BEFORE making the decision on dumping.
The A 340 made it very easy on them.
Only an increment of 10 kts between full flap and t/o flap and approach speeds of around 1.2 Vs.
I call that a plane that does not get you in trouble unless you do it yourself !
As I said before, two questions are important when assessing multiple failures.
1. What is my touch down groundspeed going to be?
2. What do I have to stop and how am I going to use it and why ?
By this I am not making a statement different the EK CRM manual:
Share Analyze Decide Implement Evaluate
(Well know within EK as "Sadie the cleaning lady"), the difference between my suggestion and the EK CRM Model is that I think my method is more pragmatic.
You can not make a decision on what your touchdown groundspeed is going to be unless you have thought about :
(Flaps, Weight, pressure altitude, sped additive, temperature and wind conditions) the same reasoning for the other question
CRM is a good tool but you have to know what you are looking for.
Share …..what ?
Decide……What ? etc
Would they have come to another conclusion, acted differantely?
So again the mention of 1.2VS is incorrect along with the statement that you can slow and A340 to 60kts on rev only...... cant wait to see the rubbish you produce on that one.....
To argue about the difference between 1.18 or 1.2 Vs is nonsense.
White Night stated himself that it can be done on reversers only, actually you do it on a daily basis. I am quite sure you do not brake alot on the A 340 unless on a very hot day. Realizing that, is what I call airmanship and you carry this with you.
Definitely on a 4400 m runway, no need to touch the brakes until below 60 kts.
Either they completely crippled the gear on T/O, if not they must have done a very bad job on the return.
The key issue on the return for landing is lack of situation awareness (aircraft performance capability) and very likely poor handling.
An approach followed by Go/Around was definitely an option (to asses the condition of the gear BEFORE making the decision on dumping.
The A 340 made it very easy on them.
Only an increment of 10 kts between full flap and t/o flap and approach speeds of around 1.2 Vs.
I call that a plane that does not get you in trouble unless you do it yourself !
As I said before, two questions are important when assessing multiple failures.
1. What is my touch down groundspeed going to be?
2. What do I have to stop and how am I going to use it and why ?
By this I am not making a statement different the EK CRM manual:
Share Analyze Decide Implement Evaluate
(Well know within EK as "Sadie the cleaning lady"), the difference between my suggestion and the EK CRM Model is that I think my method is more pragmatic.
You can not make a decision on what your touchdown groundspeed is going to be unless you have thought about :
(Flaps, Weight, pressure altitude, sped additive, temperature and wind conditions) the same reasoning for the other question
CRM is a good tool but you have to know what you are looking for.
Share …..what ?
Decide……What ? etc
Would they have come to another conclusion, acted differantely?
Last edited by Cap 56; 13th Jun 2004 at 10:16.
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
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Obviously Purr has not read the whole thread! 
It's pompous oiks like this that ruin PPRuNe for the rest of us with their all knowing, simple solution comments based on no substance or qualification.
Read the whole thread before making such stupid remarks!
It's pompous oiks like this that ruin PPRuNe for the rest of us with their all knowing, simple solution comments based on no substance or qualification.
Read the whole thread before making such stupid remarks!
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Again you fail to comprehend CRAP 56, pls read again and again and again untill it seeps in, with flaps extended on the approach the relevant protection is 1.23VS, unlike you I feel details are important as do most other pilots.....ppl,cpl,atpls even!!
A bit like your quote on speeds (195 where it is actually 205)..... yet again proven to be incorrect, along with the idea of shooting an approach to go around at night and expect to learn anything from the controller about the state of the gear. As you said nonesence and it ALL comes from you.
I think I speak for more than myself when I say your lack of actual knowledge and obvious chip on shoulder is just becoming boreing....
A bit like your quote on speeds (195 where it is actually 205)..... yet again proven to be incorrect, along with the idea of shooting an approach to go around at night and expect to learn anything from the controller about the state of the gear. As you said nonesence and it ALL comes from you.
I think I speak for more than myself when I say your lack of actual knowledge and obvious chip on shoulder is just becoming boreing....
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Can one assume that the ramification of what happened in JNB has resulted in the safety circular just pushed under my door.
It states that the DG of CAA UAE has issued a bulletin which is quoted below
It states that the DG of CAA UAE has issued a bulletin which is quoted below
It has come to the notice of the GCAA that some operators have been involved in operating their aircraft in overweight conditions whilst operating in the UAE airports and airspace. This is a serious violation of the UAE Aviation Law which strictly prohibits such operation s regardless of the cause.
With immediate effect and in accordance with the provisions of the UAE Civil Aviation Law Articles 34 and 16 all aircraft are prohibited from planning to enter or to operate in the airspace and territory of the UAE unless the loading and mass and balance mainifest and documentation are within the limits prescribed by the competent Authority (State of Registry) and the state of Design of the Manufacturer. Improper manifest and documentation by operators will lead to denial of take off clearance.
Operators are remained to ensure that the weight of the aircraft and it c of g location must be established prior to commencement of operations. An aircraft load manifest and mass and balance docs shall be retained by the operator and the concerned Airport Authority for min of 6 months
With immediate effect and in accordance with the provisions of the UAE Civil Aviation Law Articles 34 and 16 all aircraft are prohibited from planning to enter or to operate in the airspace and territory of the UAE unless the loading and mass and balance mainifest and documentation are within the limits prescribed by the competent Authority (State of Registry) and the state of Design of the Manufacturer. Improper manifest and documentation by operators will lead to denial of take off clearance.
Operators are remained to ensure that the weight of the aircraft and it c of g location must be established prior to commencement of operations. An aircraft load manifest and mass and balance docs shall be retained by the operator and the concerned Airport Authority for min of 6 months
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This bulletin came out a while ago - was even quoted in the "Gulf News" long before the Jo'burg incident. I think it was aimed at our CIS chums!!!!
Besides Engineer, has OVERWEIGHT been reported as the cause, or was the aeroplane even overweight. I think probably not. Let's wait for the SA authorities to release their report shall we?
We (at EK) most certainly do not operate "over weight" or "out of trim"!!!-- Within the criteria of being able to check load and balance from the flight deck it has to be said...
Besides Engineer, has OVERWEIGHT been reported as the cause, or was the aeroplane even overweight. I think probably not. Let's wait for the SA authorities to release their report shall we?
We (at EK) most certainly do not operate "over weight" or "out of trim"!!!-- Within the criteria of being able to check load and balance from the flight deck it has to be said...
White Knight:
"I think it was aimed at our CIS chums!!!!"
Silberfuchs:
I think White Knight is refering to the motley collection of CIS aircraft (including AN-8s, AN-12s, IL-18s and IL-76s) which operate into and out of Sharjah and which are registered under just about every flag of convenience known to man.
I would imagine that EK aircraft operate under much more strictly enforced regulations.
"I think it was aimed at our CIS chums!!!!"
Silberfuchs:
I think White Knight is refering to the motley collection of CIS aircraft (including AN-8s, AN-12s, IL-18s and IL-76s) which operate into and out of Sharjah and which are registered under just about every flag of convenience known to man.
I would imagine that EK aircraft operate under much more strictly enforced regulations.
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Thank you JW411 for explaining what I thought I'd already said
Silberfuxs - try rereading my last post!!!!!!!
You tell me, by the way, how any crew can in reality check exactly what has been loaded and where
I can tell you that no-one can, not on an 18 seat island hopper, a 50-70 seat turboprop, a 110 seat regional jet or a 280 seat intercontinental airliner. (ps - I've flown all the above)
The crew are responsible for checking the accuracy of the LOADSHEET.....not the actual loading. We can't physically do that. We have to trust the despatcher and the loaders I'm afraid.
Silberfuxs - try rereading my last post!!!!!!!
You tell me, by the way, how any crew can in reality check exactly what has been loaded and where
I can tell you that no-one can, not on an 18 seat island hopper, a 50-70 seat turboprop, a 110 seat regional jet or a 280 seat intercontinental airliner. (ps - I've flown all the above)
The crew are responsible for checking the accuracy of the LOADSHEET.....not the actual loading. We can't physically do that. We have to trust the despatcher and the loaders I'm afraid.
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White Knight Is that your CV you have just written???
Are the rose tinted glasses misting up a bit??
As an F/O I am afraid you have to hang on in there and hope it all comes good
What EK quite clearly need desperately judging by the JNB incident is somew experienced A340 Captains and other 4 Engine experienced ones.( I do NOT include the BAE 146 in that!!!!)
Silverfuchs You must excuse WK as he does tend to fly off in a puerile tirade at times. He cannot help it.
Are the rose tinted glasses misting up a bit??
As an F/O I am afraid you have to hang on in there and hope it all comes good
What EK quite clearly need desperately judging by the JNB incident is somew experienced A340 Captains and other 4 Engine experienced ones.( I do NOT include the BAE 146 in that!!!!)
Silverfuchs You must excuse WK as he does tend to fly off in a puerile tirade at times. He cannot help it.
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I think you will find..The commander is legally responsible to the extent of his worldwide wealth if he signs the load sheet and it is incorrect.
Not the load control officer or his loaders.
The commander is also legally responsible etc etc.... for all the doors being properly locked befor takeoff.
The commander is also responsible etc etc... If a passenger is injured by any type of turbulance or abrupt manouvre and the seat belt sign is not on.
This is why I always flew with the seat belt sign on most of the time and invested my allowances in beer, wine, women, and slow horses and wasted the rest.
I read about the legal proffession going to town on a Thia Captains assets and pension fund in the seat belt sign case.
Balpa attended this court case in Instanbull so it should be onfile.
Not the load control officer or his loaders.
The commander is also legally responsible etc etc.... for all the doors being properly locked befor takeoff.
The commander is also responsible etc etc... If a passenger is injured by any type of turbulance or abrupt manouvre and the seat belt sign is not on.
This is why I always flew with the seat belt sign on most of the time and invested my allowances in beer, wine, women, and slow horses and wasted the rest.
I read about the legal proffession going to town on a Thia Captains assets and pension fund in the seat belt sign case.
Balpa attended this court case in Instanbull so it should be onfile.