Emirates emergency landing in JNB
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On that sort of aircraft everything is on auto mode (as on all liners now, but even more of course inside the fly-by-wire family of Airbus products)
It seems there is just the rotation which is still manual, with hand action through muscular inputs which need to be calibrated a little bit)
If unable to perform that simple tast in a correct manner, what does remain of the hand-flying ability ?
It seems there is just the rotation which is still manual, with hand action through muscular inputs which need to be calibrated a little bit)
If unable to perform that simple tast in a correct manner, what does remain of the hand-flying ability ?
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BYMONEK
Do not get so worked up, I was only answering the question put to me by INVICTUS
So if the facts (QRH) state that they only needed 1700 m, why did they use 4200m ?
Your ASSESS,ACTION,MANAGE model is fine and similar to mine with the difference that the asses phase in my proposition may be more pragmatic.
If you have a double failure, the QRH will state what is affected and how for that x-list only. It is of course impossible otherwise.
With a combination of failures some effects may not become apparent trough the combination of different X-lists.
My method concentrates on what do I have, how will I use it and why.
In determining the estimated touchdown speed you are forced to ASSESS all elements: Weight (ZFW + Fuel), config + Vref + additive, Wind, slope and the influence of high field and temp.
That’s fine, but I would still leave that decision to the staff on the ground, question of doing everthing possible. In this case an approach to land close enough to the ground and go-around.
I realise its at night but it wasn’t IMC was it? If you can see the runway to land surely they can see you, what happens after that is:
Do not get so worked up about it, it is not good for your blood pressure.
The referance to the Dubai pilot union is just a little touch with reality. The primary task of a pilot union is to defend the profession and not the salary. You guys are on your own, that's all i meant by putting it in my post.
Do not get so worked up, I was only answering the question put to me by INVICTUS
I am sure it involves not making assumptions and getting the facts before you dive in with solutions.
Your ASSESS,ACTION,MANAGE model is fine and similar to mine with the difference that the asses phase in my proposition may be more pragmatic.
If you have a double failure, the QRH will state what is affected and how for that x-list only. It is of course impossible otherwise.
With a combination of failures some effects may not become apparent trough the combination of different X-lists.
My method concentrates on what do I have, how will I use it and why.
In determining the estimated touchdown speed you are forced to ASSESS all elements: Weight (ZFW + Fuel), config + Vref + additive, Wind, slope and the influence of high field and temp.
Ek manual states that ;"a low flypast should only be undertaken when there is good reason to believe that Knowledge of the state of the landing gear can be improved from such a manoevre".
I realise its at night but it wasn’t IMC was it? If you can see the runway to land surely they can see you, what happens after that is:
review the proccess ie back to the assess stage just in case things have changed or may,for whatever reason,not be delivering the desired result.
The referance to the Dubai pilot union is just a little touch with reality. The primary task of a pilot union is to defend the profession and not the salary. You guys are on your own, that's all i meant by putting it in my post.
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CAP 56
We really are going round in circles here.Where did i mention anything about salary with regards to Dubai pilots association?Also,please,please tell me who in their right mind would carry out a fly past,sorry ,a low fly past at night, followed by low level go around(that should be fun!) and leave the "decision"(your quote...not mine) to ATC.Your Assumption ( POOR CRM) that just because YOU can see the runway so THEY must be able to see you was the final straw in making me realise that ;
A) Your are most definitely a pretender.
B) You are talking complete B****CKS
C) You really are from another planet so apologies for A & B as you don't know any better!
p.s Blood pressure fine thanks but can't stop the tears of laughter.
p.p.s Ask you ' FRIENDS' in Airbus why they didn't stop in the required distance. Just imagine what NO autobrakes would have achieved!
We really are going round in circles here.Where did i mention anything about salary with regards to Dubai pilots association?Also,please,please tell me who in their right mind would carry out a fly past,sorry ,a low fly past at night, followed by low level go around(that should be fun!) and leave the "decision"(your quote...not mine) to ATC.Your Assumption ( POOR CRM) that just because YOU can see the runway so THEY must be able to see you was the final straw in making me realise that ;
A) Your are most definitely a pretender.
B) You are talking complete B****CKS
C) You really are from another planet so apologies for A & B as you don't know any better!
p.s Blood pressure fine thanks but can't stop the tears of laughter.
p.p.s Ask you ' FRIENDS' in Airbus why they didn't stop in the required distance. Just imagine what NO autobrakes would have achieved!
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BYMONEK
I really love this one:
I do not think that you can decide if ATC is able to make a visual assessment or not.
As a crew you can make a request and together you decide if it is feasible or not.
Basically, that decision lays entirely with ATC not you, since ATC is making the assessment.
With all runway and touchdown zone lights on, I do think it is possible and as a crew you would cover your ass. I have rather ATC decide it's impossible than me.
This is not a case of being absolutely right or wrong, any decision that can be reasonably defended is acceptable. Yours as well as mine.
I was not there and this is PPRuNeand therefore all opinions are wellcome.
Finally, with the problems at hand it was crucial to put as much deceleration as possible on the reversers that’s why I would not use the auto brakes to avoid putting unnessesary stress on my already damaged tires.
The investigation will reveal how deep the crew landed into the runway and how much tires they blew up during the landing roll without any reason.
I really love this one:
I do not think that you can decide if ATC is able to make a visual assessment or not.
As a crew you can make a request and together you decide if it is feasible or not.
Basically, that decision lays entirely with ATC not you, since ATC is making the assessment.
With all runway and touchdown zone lights on, I do think it is possible and as a crew you would cover your ass. I have rather ATC decide it's impossible than me.
This is not a case of being absolutely right or wrong, any decision that can be reasonably defended is acceptable. Yours as well as mine.
I was not there and this is PPRuNeand therefore all opinions are wellcome.
Finally, with the problems at hand it was crucial to put as much deceleration as possible on the reversers that’s why I would not use the auto brakes to avoid putting unnessesary stress on my already damaged tires.
The investigation will reveal how deep the crew landed into the runway and how much tires they blew up during the landing roll without any reason.
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CRAP 56...YOU JUST GO FROM BAD TO WORSE! The crew had no indication,i say AGAIN....NO indication that there was a problem with the gear/tyres as far as i'm aware.Refer back to an earlier posting of mine and suggest you look up the word Hindsight.Further more,do you think the crew would really" blow up the tyres for no good reason".........you've been watching too much thunderbirds mate!As you never seem capable of answering anyones questions and appear determined to have the last word,i shall leave you the honours......but,before i go,just think about this.IF the Pilot flying had made an initial mistake with the rotation, the crew,in my opinion and from information available,made an excellent job in returning and landing with no injuries.That is the aim in any situation.It is not you or i that have to justify our decisions here on PPruNe,it was the guys on the day.They,unfortunately got sacked.That does NOT mean,however,that their decisions were bad.They happened to be the victims of possibly poor /inadequate training and spineless managers, more concerned with protecting their own backsides.Good decisions don't always result in good outcomes i'm afraid!
Last edited by BYMONEK; 21st Jun 2004 at 04:42.
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7 x 7
Were I come from, I am only average.
But in the land of the blind the one eyed son in law is king.
http://www.uaeprison.com/constitution.htm
I hope this helps the crew concerned
Were I come from, I am only average.
But in the land of the blind the one eyed son in law is king.
http://www.uaeprison.com/constitution.htm
I hope this helps the crew concerned
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I just dont get it!
Basic flying and airmanship on take-off tells me that I should be referencing myself to the runway visual cues outside the cockpit more than instruments inside. Man if you see the red lights approaching and nothing is happening after V1 its TOGA and rotate as much as you can, even if you scrape the tail.
Dunno......... running off the end of the runway when it was all available makes no sense to me. Seems like the tunnel vision thing and not the big picture thing. After all its an aeroplane, it needs enough airflow and angle of attack to fly. What on earth did the Sidestick Position Indicator have to do with no more runway left? Is this a training culture thing maybe?
Dunno......... running off the end of the runway when it was all available makes no sense to me. Seems like the tunnel vision thing and not the big picture thing. After all its an aeroplane, it needs enough airflow and angle of attack to fly. What on earth did the Sidestick Position Indicator have to do with no more runway left? Is this a training culture thing maybe?
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Forget the bull****
Gents, no matter how much of a wizard each one of us pilots thinks they are.........were not. That is the pilots downfall, they think there perfect but they are only human beings too. Forget the image, as that is of the past. Lets learn from our mistakes.
On that point forget your small nitty gritty personal "I would have" schemes with all the technical jargen after having looked at the bookes for however long.... and remember....when the chips are down it is survival for all on board and the company involved. After all weather, and all other natural happenings are not defined, and so will it be for us at times.
Companies for you too, don't consider pilots as merenaries but rather as a team, and human beings too, treat them as such, and maybe you too will reap the benefit of productivity and safety you so desire.
Let this incident be a lesson to all who wish to learn, after all we all know many brains are better than one!
Take care boyz were all in the same plane.
On that point forget your small nitty gritty personal "I would have" schemes with all the technical jargen after having looked at the bookes for however long.... and remember....when the chips are down it is survival for all on board and the company involved. After all weather, and all other natural happenings are not defined, and so will it be for us at times.
Companies for you too, don't consider pilots as merenaries but rather as a team, and human beings too, treat them as such, and maybe you too will reap the benefit of productivity and safety you so desire.
Let this incident be a lesson to all who wish to learn, after all we all know many brains are better than one!
Take care boyz were all in the same plane.
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On that point forget your small nitty gritty personal "I would have" schemes with all the technical jargon after having looked at the books for however long....
It is not what you know but who you know, that’s were the real problem is.
It is not what you know but who you know, that’s were the real problem is.
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Crap 56..... still havent had an answer to the question of which runway they landed on...... you have ducked this little question as it seems your calculations are yet again wrong along with your absurd assumptions and since danny has prevented your self editing of posts your bull **** has decreased 100 fold as it iis stuck here for all to see and have a good laugh at!! Well then.... what runway? And then please do tell how much runway they used again for us mere mortals..... 
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Silky
You know very well they were only 150 m short of the end of a 4400 m runway and according the QRH they needed 1800 m.
So 1800 m is what they, according to white – night, believed they needed and they were wrong.
So tell me my friend what would have been he scenario if it would have happened in LHR.
I really get the impression you are one of those fancy EK instructors.
You know very well they were only 150 m short of the end of a 4400 m runway and according the QRH they needed 1800 m.
So 1800 m is what they, according to white – night, believed they needed and they were wrong.
So tell me my friend what would have been he scenario if it would have happened in LHR.
I really get the impression you are one of those fancy EK instructors.
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Picu wrote; while defending the crew
Douglas Digby wrote
So silky are you trying to proof that they did not even use the longest runway available ?
Is stopping 150 metres from the end of the runway not sufficient, especially considering that they lost normal braking at 70kts.? I would have been happy to stop 10 metres from the end, just enough for a push-back truck to squeeze through and tow the aircraft off the runway. In fact, since this is not a safety-orientated reason, even 10 millimetres would have been enough.
The aircraft, bound for Dubai with 216 passengers and 14 crew on 9 April, began its take-off roll on Johannesburg\'s 4,420m (14,490ft) long runway 21R, but did not get airborne until it had passed beyond the end of the runway, blowing three main gear tyres and damaging the flaps, which subsequently locked in a partly deployed position. It then returned to land having dumped fuel.
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still awaiting your answer.......... and I agree totally with picu.....just pointing out that you who proclaim knowledge on the whole thing including inside information, that of the 4 runways you cant say which one! Just proves you are a farce....p.s. I dont know eitheir.....
Last edited by Silky; 21st Jun 2004 at 16:20.
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U guys R seriously sick
What are U bickering about? U R still looking at the small personal BS. Look at the big picture! I really hope none of you are involved in EK because that would seriously worry me. 