Emirates emergency landing in JNB
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Hello All. Just got back from JNB. Spoke to the crew involved, ground staff and engineers. As the matter is still under investigation I will not mention any details, just a few minor points.
None of the pilots, cabin crew or passengers was hurt. I had dinner with both pilots last night. They are fine.
I think the crew did a great job and should be commended for it.
LOUNGE LIZARD, you slag the pilots without knowing the cause of the incident. Someone like you should know that rushing to conclusions is a no-no in aviation. Sadly not.
SKIDCANUCK - posting an ASR on a public website is not really a great idea isn't it? Especially when your colleagues are involved. It's also against company policy. Bad show old chap.
I do appreciate that PPRUNE is a rumour website and that everyone has the right to express an opinion. But as VIEW FROM THE GROUND said, the matter is still under investigation. I agree that discussion is healthy as we all stand to learn from other people's experiences but try and keep it professional and avoid useless mud-slinging. Remember also that the crew involved have access to this site and would be hurt to read some of the crappy posts, especially after doing a great job of flying a crippled ship back to safety without a single injury to the occupants. Which is, I'm sure most of you will agree, what our profession is about.
To the pilots and cabin crew on that flight, well done. You have my utmost respect.
None of the pilots, cabin crew or passengers was hurt. I had dinner with both pilots last night. They are fine.
I think the crew did a great job and should be commended for it.
LOUNGE LIZARD, you slag the pilots without knowing the cause of the incident. Someone like you should know that rushing to conclusions is a no-no in aviation. Sadly not.
SKIDCANUCK - posting an ASR on a public website is not really a great idea isn't it? Especially when your colleagues are involved. It's also against company policy. Bad show old chap.
I do appreciate that PPRUNE is a rumour website and that everyone has the right to express an opinion. But as VIEW FROM THE GROUND said, the matter is still under investigation. I agree that discussion is healthy as we all stand to learn from other people's experiences but try and keep it professional and avoid useless mud-slinging. Remember also that the crew involved have access to this site and would be hurt to read some of the crappy posts, especially after doing a great job of flying a crippled ship back to safety without a single injury to the occupants. Which is, I'm sure most of you will agree, what our profession is about.
To the pilots and cabin crew on that flight, well done. You have my utmost respect.
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>>SKIDCANUCK - posting an ASR on a public website is not really a great idea isn't it? Especially when your colleagues are involved. It's also against company policy. Bad show old chap.<<
I agree. It is extremely poor form with a third world airline to post anything related to safety since that implies that the procedures and standards were less than perfect. Severe loss of face may follow.
Wait for the non-published accident report which may or may not come out within a year.
You would never want to do like the Americans and immediately put a quick factual report online:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/AccList.asp?month=4&year=2004
I agree. It is extremely poor form with a third world airline to post anything related to safety since that implies that the procedures and standards were less than perfect. Severe loss of face may follow.
Wait for the non-published accident report which may or may not come out within a year.
You would never want to do like the Americans and immediately put a quick factual report online:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/AccList.asp?month=4&year=2004
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Airbubba,
Emirates is not the NTSB nor is it the civil aviation authority in the UAE. What possible reason would it then have to make an INTERNAL (at this stage) air safelty report public?
I agree with picu, pasting the ASR here is in bad taste!
To the boys involved: Congrats on stopping her in one piece.
Emirates is not the NTSB nor is it the civil aviation authority in the UAE. What possible reason would it then have to make an INTERNAL (at this stage) air safelty report public?
I agree with picu, pasting the ASR here is in bad taste!
To the boys involved: Congrats on stopping her in one piece.
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Picu,
Mr clown, go back and re read the statement. I did not slag off at any of my fello men. I have no doubt whatsoever that the guy driving that day ( whom also has an empecable record) was certainly the bloke EK needed at the helm to get everyones ass back on the ground safely and bloody well done to them at that. Let's all be grateful for that one shall we. Keep your "slagging" for Canuck.
Mr clown, go back and re read the statement. I did not slag off at any of my fello men. I have no doubt whatsoever that the guy driving that day ( whom also has an empecable record) was certainly the bloke EK needed at the helm to get everyones ass back on the ground safely and bloody well done to them at that. Let's all be grateful for that one shall we. Keep your "slagging" for Canuck.
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Hello again, nice to have generated a few replies but please try to keep it clean.
LOUNGE LIZARD you are quite right - I re-read the threads and didn't find anything from you against the pilots. The tone you used seemed to imply it but I guess that was just my interpretation. Apologies.
AIRBUBBA, regarding the American system I have a lot of respect for their freedom of information policy and think it's a model that other countries all over the world should follow but I have to disagree with your post. Putting out information of this nature to the public before it's fully investigated can be dangerous as it leads people to make up their own conclusions without a clear picture of the truth. As often happens on PPRUNE.
It's also grossly unfair for the company and crew involved.
Historically it has been shown that getting one's facts right before declaring yourself is what really saves one's face.
Now which country declared it invaded Iraq because the latter had weapons of mass destruction? Ask the hundreds of innocent Iraqis, Americans, Brits, Spanish, Italians and more killed since then............
LOUNGE LIZARD you are quite right - I re-read the threads and didn't find anything from you against the pilots. The tone you used seemed to imply it but I guess that was just my interpretation. Apologies.
AIRBUBBA, regarding the American system I have a lot of respect for their freedom of information policy and think it's a model that other countries all over the world should follow but I have to disagree with your post. Putting out information of this nature to the public before it's fully investigated can be dangerous as it leads people to make up their own conclusions without a clear picture of the truth. As often happens on PPRUNE.
It's also grossly unfair for the company and crew involved.
Historically it has been shown that getting one's facts right before declaring yourself is what really saves one's face.
Now which country declared it invaded Iraq because the latter had weapons of mass destruction? Ask the hundreds of innocent Iraqis, Americans, Brits, Spanish, Italians and more killed since then............
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***WARNING***
OK, first person to even try to respond to the last paragraph of 'picus' post above gets an automatic 'PPRuNe headache'. (Talk about triggering a thread diversion!
)
There is no way this is just going to 'die down'. Someone opened the Pandoras Box and no matter how much some of you want me to remove the ASR, it has been published and it is being discussed. If someone had bothered to 'edit' the ASR into something a bit more 'journalistic' it would still be the same info. At least the ASR is about as factual you can get at this moment of time.
A few people still seem to be amazed that this is the 21st century and information can and will be spread very rapidly. At least those pilots who operate out of JNB will be able to take note that perhaps they need to take a bit more interest in their loadsheets because of this incident. They will be aware that there has been a problem and can take any necessary actions to double check anything that they may feel needs attention.
No one is apportioning blame and anyone who does at this stage is probably not an airline pilot but someone with an ego that is just looking for attention. Anyone trying to point a finger at Emirates at this stage only shows themselves to be disgruntled and probably someone who didn't make the grade for them and so shouldn't be afforded the dignity of a response. As discussed, there appears to have been a weight and balance problem at this stage and an investigation is underway. We, as professional pilots can and should be able to discuss this and similar issues without fear or recrimination. We would be discussing these issues privately so why not widen the pilot participation? Yes, this is a publicly accessible forum but the issue under discussion is not some secret conspiracy. Most of us can spot a 'pretender' a mile off and they should be ignored. The rest of the debate will involve speculation, hopefully from an educated point of view.
The few posters who are unable to keep the debate mature enough because they either have to tag on some kind of infantile snipe and then get all upset and foulmouthed because they don't like the response to their snipes had better learn to control their emotions a bit better. This is a serious discussion about an incident that could have ended as a disaster but didn't because of the professionalism and skill of the crew. Even if it ended up as pilot error, which is highly unlikely in this incident, it is never just pilot error and there are often unforeseen elements that contribute to any incident. Those of you who enjoy armchair quarterbacking surely have either not had an incident yet and believe that you are infallible. Definitely not a trait most of us would want on the flight deck.
Incidents such as these are a fact of life. They are not pleasant for the company or the crews and trying to brush it under the carpet is akin to burying ones head in the sand. Speculation is natural and if we can all learn something from it on here then it has at least achieved something positive. So what if the media follow up on it. Do any of you really believe that the majority of the media give a toss whether what they report is accurate? Of course they don't and we should all learn to give the media the respect it deserves... contempt. Passengers who are afraid of flying will still be afraid of flying and those that aren't are not likely to any less afraid because of the sensationalist stuff they read either.
This thread manages to highlight to many of us that what we read on the loadsheet and sign for means nothing if the people producing it have not checked that it is correct. Whether at JNB or any other airport we operate into all over the world, any pilots reading this thread will at least think twice about it and that is probably a good thing.
)There is no way this is just going to 'die down'. Someone opened the Pandoras Box and no matter how much some of you want me to remove the ASR, it has been published and it is being discussed. If someone had bothered to 'edit' the ASR into something a bit more 'journalistic' it would still be the same info. At least the ASR is about as factual you can get at this moment of time.
A few people still seem to be amazed that this is the 21st century and information can and will be spread very rapidly. At least those pilots who operate out of JNB will be able to take note that perhaps they need to take a bit more interest in their loadsheets because of this incident. They will be aware that there has been a problem and can take any necessary actions to double check anything that they may feel needs attention.
No one is apportioning blame and anyone who does at this stage is probably not an airline pilot but someone with an ego that is just looking for attention. Anyone trying to point a finger at Emirates at this stage only shows themselves to be disgruntled and probably someone who didn't make the grade for them and so shouldn't be afforded the dignity of a response. As discussed, there appears to have been a weight and balance problem at this stage and an investigation is underway. We, as professional pilots can and should be able to discuss this and similar issues without fear or recrimination. We would be discussing these issues privately so why not widen the pilot participation? Yes, this is a publicly accessible forum but the issue under discussion is not some secret conspiracy. Most of us can spot a 'pretender' a mile off and they should be ignored. The rest of the debate will involve speculation, hopefully from an educated point of view.
The few posters who are unable to keep the debate mature enough because they either have to tag on some kind of infantile snipe and then get all upset and foulmouthed because they don't like the response to their snipes had better learn to control their emotions a bit better. This is a serious discussion about an incident that could have ended as a disaster but didn't because of the professionalism and skill of the crew. Even if it ended up as pilot error, which is highly unlikely in this incident, it is never just pilot error and there are often unforeseen elements that contribute to any incident. Those of you who enjoy armchair quarterbacking surely have either not had an incident yet and believe that you are infallible. Definitely not a trait most of us would want on the flight deck.
Incidents such as these are a fact of life. They are not pleasant for the company or the crews and trying to brush it under the carpet is akin to burying ones head in the sand. Speculation is natural and if we can all learn something from it on here then it has at least achieved something positive. So what if the media follow up on it. Do any of you really believe that the majority of the media give a toss whether what they report is accurate? Of course they don't and we should all learn to give the media the respect it deserves... contempt. Passengers who are afraid of flying will still be afraid of flying and those that aren't are not likely to any less afraid because of the sensationalist stuff they read either.
This thread manages to highlight to many of us that what we read on the loadsheet and sign for means nothing if the people producing it have not checked that it is correct. Whether at JNB or any other airport we operate into all over the world, any pilots reading this thread will at least think twice about it and that is probably a good thing.
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It is most difficult for us as pilots to check that the numbers are correct if they are wrong from the very beginning. If load-control says it's 4t's in the bulk cargo and it's infact 7t's we really have no way of finding out other than getting the bags off.
The loadsheet will add up quite nicely only it won't reflect the load carried..
The loadsheet will add up quite nicely only it won't reflect the load carried..
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Is there any way that a calc error on the part of the airport staff can be traced after the fact?
As all the insiders here already found out that it was a loading problem, everything's clear. It could also have been a wrong input to the performance page (too high flex temperature setting) or just wrong reading out of the performance book (or laptop, whatever they use in Emirates).
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Danny, well said.
And just to make the point, our own airline has had an incident of this, i.e. loadsheet / trim error - which, from memory, happened two summers ago at Skiathos.
The aircraft arrives, wherein the Greek ramp agent ( with very poor English, i.e. nearly as bad as the pilots Greek ) starts the usual dialogue about how much fuel, and the number of passengers & bags, etc.
Now on a B737 the normal practice is to load as many of the bags into the rear cargo hold as possible ( as it unloads the elevator and thus improves fuel economy ) - indeed most airports that regularly handle B737's will automatically load its rear hold first - and so this is what our pilot agrees with the ramp agent, i.e. "Put them all in the back" and with that he ( the pilot ) went to work on the loadsheet using standard figures for weights and load distribution.
With the turnaround complete, they taxi out, line-up for departure, push-up the thrust levers and start rolling up the runway wherein the handling pilot senses that the nose of aircraft seems very light ( which it shouldn't be so early in the take-off ) and so he aborts the takeoff roll.
Pulling back onto stand the pilots open the flightdeck door and see the pax ( it wasn't a full load ) all sitting in the rear seats - doh !
Thus, they had the right amount of fuel, the right number of bags ( all stashed in the rear hold ), and the right number of passengers ( albeit NOT evenly distributed throughout the aircraft ), i.e. it all added up correctly - except for the trim.
Me thinks it's a good example of the error chain in action, i.e. all from a relatively simple misunderstanding, following which nobody mentioned that pax sitting only in the rear seats seems unusual. Of course we, as pilots, don't actually check who's sitting where and / or what's been loaded in to the holds and / or what everything really weighs - we 'assume' that everybody has done their job in the normal & correct manner and, so long as everything adds up, all's well.
Fortunately, on that day, the error chain was broken when the handling pilot ( an experienced bloke ) recognised that aircraft didn't feel right and stopped.
There again, what might have happened had the handling pilot been an under training 'newby', less familiar with the feel of the aircraft, is open to conjecture !
We learn by our mistakes - hopefully.
And just to make the point, our own airline has had an incident of this, i.e. loadsheet / trim error - which, from memory, happened two summers ago at Skiathos.
The aircraft arrives, wherein the Greek ramp agent ( with very poor English, i.e. nearly as bad as the pilots Greek ) starts the usual dialogue about how much fuel, and the number of passengers & bags, etc.
Now on a B737 the normal practice is to load as many of the bags into the rear cargo hold as possible ( as it unloads the elevator and thus improves fuel economy ) - indeed most airports that regularly handle B737's will automatically load its rear hold first - and so this is what our pilot agrees with the ramp agent, i.e. "Put them all in the back" and with that he ( the pilot ) went to work on the loadsheet using standard figures for weights and load distribution.
With the turnaround complete, they taxi out, line-up for departure, push-up the thrust levers and start rolling up the runway wherein the handling pilot senses that the nose of aircraft seems very light ( which it shouldn't be so early in the take-off ) and so he aborts the takeoff roll.
Pulling back onto stand the pilots open the flightdeck door and see the pax ( it wasn't a full load ) all sitting in the rear seats - doh !
Thus, they had the right amount of fuel, the right number of bags ( all stashed in the rear hold ), and the right number of passengers ( albeit NOT evenly distributed throughout the aircraft ), i.e. it all added up correctly - except for the trim.
Me thinks it's a good example of the error chain in action, i.e. all from a relatively simple misunderstanding, following which nobody mentioned that pax sitting only in the rear seats seems unusual. Of course we, as pilots, don't actually check who's sitting where and / or what's been loaded in to the holds and / or what everything really weighs - we 'assume' that everybody has done their job in the normal & correct manner and, so long as everything adds up, all's well.
Fortunately, on that day, the error chain was broken when the handling pilot ( an experienced bloke ) recognised that aircraft didn't feel right and stopped.
There again, what might have happened had the handling pilot been an under training 'newby', less familiar with the feel of the aircraft, is open to conjecture !
We learn by our mistakes - hopefully.
quote:
Fortunately, on that day, the error chain was broken when the handling pilot ( an experienced bloke ) recognised that aircraft didn’t feel right and stopped.
Well said. It just goes to show how experience plays a huge role in avoiding many accidents. Thats why it amazes me how airlines recruit guys with no experience besides basic training but thats for another forum.
quote:
Of course we, as pilots, don’t actually check who’s sitting where
Thats brings up another issue. Airline pilots have alot on their plate especially on quick turnaround flights. and dont have the time to check on the loading although most companies state that it is the capt. responsibilty. Maybe we should start training hosties to recognise when pax have moved from their allocated seats that it might alter the trim of the aircraft. That example above might be able to introduce a new link to a chain to avert accidents.
To get back to emirates im sure those guys had plenty of aviation background and once again i congratulate them for avoiding disaster. Im sure only quick thinking and skill saved the day something some computer pilots MIGHT be lacking.
Fortunately, on that day, the error chain was broken when the handling pilot ( an experienced bloke ) recognised that aircraft didn’t feel right and stopped.
Well said. It just goes to show how experience plays a huge role in avoiding many accidents. Thats why it amazes me how airlines recruit guys with no experience besides basic training but thats for another forum.
quote:
Of course we, as pilots, don’t actually check who’s sitting where
Thats brings up another issue. Airline pilots have alot on their plate especially on quick turnaround flights. and dont have the time to check on the loading although most companies state that it is the capt. responsibilty. Maybe we should start training hosties to recognise when pax have moved from their allocated seats that it might alter the trim of the aircraft. That example above might be able to introduce a new link to a chain to avert accidents.
To get back to emirates im sure those guys had plenty of aviation background and once again i congratulate them for avoiding disaster. Im sure only quick thinking and skill saved the day something some computer pilots MIGHT be lacking.
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NoD, apparently there was 4t on the loadsheet when in fact there was 7t.
Earlier the 3T discepency referred to the Bulk Hold (at the back). Surely if there was 3T extra at the back, then there would not be a rotation problem? Seems to me that to prevent rotation, we need too little weight at the back, and too much at the front?
Is there any way that a calc error on the part of the airport staff can be traced after the fact?
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I'm with NoD, and from the "info" given so far, would lean toward it either being either
not enough loaded aft
too much loaded foward
a lot too much being loaded everywhere
stab set incorrectly
wrong thrust or speed or flaps
or a combination of the above.
All of the above can be affected by a large number of variables, which are completely out of the hands (and eyes) of the guys in the hot seat, so lets no jump on the bandwagon too quickly.
On another note, mention is made of TOGA being selected after Vr.
Can someone who knows tell me if you are likely to get a flex t/o out of JNB going home? And also, what variety of Bus is it?
Well done to the crew for the return.
not enough loaded aft
too much loaded foward
a lot too much being loaded everywhere
stab set incorrectly
wrong thrust or speed or flaps
or a combination of the above.
All of the above can be affected by a large number of variables, which are completely out of the hands (and eyes) of the guys in the hot seat, so lets no jump on the bandwagon too quickly.
On another note, mention is made of TOGA being selected after Vr.
Can someone who knows tell me if you are likely to get a flex t/o out of JNB going home? And also, what variety of Bus is it?
Well done to the crew for the return.
Top Dog
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Anorak on :
Serial number 166
Type 340-313X
First flight date 06/03/1997
Test registration F-WWJZ
27/03/1997 Singapore Airlines 9V-SJH
15/05/2002 BAHC D-ASIC
12/02/2004 Emirates Airlines A6-ERN
Anorak off....
And also, what variety of Bus is it?
Type 340-313X
First flight date 06/03/1997
Test registration F-WWJZ
27/03/1997 Singapore Airlines 9V-SJH
15/05/2002 BAHC D-ASIC
12/02/2004 Emirates Airlines A6-ERN
Anorak off....
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To all you anti-EK prophets of doom, it's time to slow down and wait for the FACTS to come out.
To the drivers involved -> well done!
Reports are that A6-ERN experienced poor take-off and climb performance departing DXB for JNB (it's 1st revenue flight for EK) and engine performance will be checked.
To the drivers involved -> well done!
Reports are that A6-ERN experienced poor take-off and climb performance departing DXB for JNB (it's 1st revenue flight for EK) and engine performance will be checked.
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"TOGA selected when there was a problem"? Excuse my being way out of touch, but didn't we used to give full thrust until after "weight off wheels"?
Or are today's engines different?
(Well rusty ex Flight Sim Engineer from before the days of Glass Cockpits!)
Or are today's engines different?
(Well rusty ex Flight Sim Engineer from before the days of Glass Cockpits!)
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I'm no expert and I don't want to speculate, but it sounds like the crew did a great job.
I can't help but think that if this incident had happened at some airports the outcome could have been much worse (EGCC 24R for example - plough through the arrestor bed and off into the dip at the the end).
In these days of computerised aircraft, is it not feasable that this problem could be caught much earlier by the aircraft itself checking the load/balance by means of front/rear oleo compression on the groud prior to the takeoff roll?
I can't help but think that if this incident had happened at some airports the outcome could have been much worse (EGCC 24R for example - plough through the arrestor bed and off into the dip at the the end).
In these days of computerised aircraft, is it not feasable that this problem could be caught much earlier by the aircraft itself checking the load/balance by means of front/rear oleo compression on the groud prior to the takeoff roll?
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I don't want to sound stupid but just for my understanding:
If I have let's say 3t more in the bulk, it definitely is a trim problem. So this might lead to premature rotation.
Assuming this were the case on any given hypothetical flight, here are my questions:
1. Wouldn't that rather lead to a tail skid before liftoff?
2. If it does would that be a little like the test during certification to find the min unstick speed? From all that I know these T/O's don't take longer to get airborne but are very sluggish when in the air (to say the least).
3. Would it really lead to a late liftoff? After all, the plane is only 3t heavier which doesn'r make that much difference in speeds.
4. If it did lead to a late liftoff, would it be so late that I could screw ALL performance data derived from the different weight calculations? (3t is about a 1,5 to 2% weight change only)
I just ask these questions because I don't understand why so many here think it was a trim problem. I don't want to suggest or assume anything but I can't see why all the mentioned factors should lead to that extreme low T/O profile.
Correct me if I'm wrong! Perhaps my aviation knowledge needs some urgent update... I hope not but it would mean that the trim wasn't the big contributor to that incident.
If I have let's say 3t more in the bulk, it definitely is a trim problem. So this might lead to premature rotation.
Assuming this were the case on any given hypothetical flight, here are my questions:
1. Wouldn't that rather lead to a tail skid before liftoff?
2. If it does would that be a little like the test during certification to find the min unstick speed? From all that I know these T/O's don't take longer to get airborne but are very sluggish when in the air (to say the least).
3. Would it really lead to a late liftoff? After all, the plane is only 3t heavier which doesn'r make that much difference in speeds.
4. If it did lead to a late liftoff, would it be so late that I could screw ALL performance data derived from the different weight calculations? (3t is about a 1,5 to 2% weight change only)
I just ask these questions because I don't understand why so many here think it was a trim problem. I don't want to suggest or assume anything but I can't see why all the mentioned factors should lead to that extreme low T/O profile.
Correct me if I'm wrong! Perhaps my aviation knowledge needs some urgent update... I hope not but it would mean that the trim wasn't the big contributor to that incident.