bmi mass exodus
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Young Paul
Shows you don't really have a clue what's going on. Two of the 3 private shareholders have been trying to offload their shares for many years but are constantly frustrated by the other, who keeps moving the goalposts. This is a pilots forum (as the title suggests) and I don't know of one happy or contented pilot within bmi at the moment. People in other areas may be happy but I can assure you the pilots aren't. Most of the pilots I know talk of the wish to leave for a company that respects and treats them better. Virgin being the most talked about. Unfortunately though not everybody can afford to leave because of having to change seats or because of family ties.
All it would take is a change of attitude and management style to bring back what was once a very happy and loyal workforce. It's ok thinking that it doesn't matter that people are leaving in droves because there are plenty more waiting to take their places. The trouble with this is that you lose your experience base which in turn can have serious safety implications.
That's my contribution!
Shows you don't really have a clue what's going on. Two of the 3 private shareholders have been trying to offload their shares for many years but are constantly frustrated by the other, who keeps moving the goalposts. This is a pilots forum (as the title suggests) and I don't know of one happy or contented pilot within bmi at the moment. People in other areas may be happy but I can assure you the pilots aren't. Most of the pilots I know talk of the wish to leave for a company that respects and treats them better. Virgin being the most talked about. Unfortunately though not everybody can afford to leave because of having to change seats or because of family ties.
All it would take is a change of attitude and management style to bring back what was once a very happy and loyal workforce. It's ok thinking that it doesn't matter that people are leaving in droves because there are plenty more waiting to take their places. The trouble with this is that you lose your experience base which in turn can have serious safety implications.
That's my contribution!
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People aren't leaving in droves. I'm not an apologist for management (I say again!), but let's see how many people "walk the walk" when the time comes. I don't want to see people go - I agree about the importance of experience base, and it's a shame to see all that good training benefitting other companies. However, I've heard it before when things were substantially worse - and there wasn't a great exodus then. Of course, I may be mistaken - but it's one thing going to have an interview and holding a job offer; it's quite another thing signing and sending a letter that starts "I quit!".
I will stand up and be counted - one! I am the "contented bmi pilot" - at least in broad terms. Cos I know that happiness is a path, not a destination! So ner!
I went to the edge of leaving about three years ago, and decided against it. From a lifestyle POV, things are better now than they were then.
Of course there are things that could be changed that would make me abruptly unhappier - most of which are connected with the fact that the company thinks unproductivity is due to problems at the pilot end, rather than at the rostering end, and for a long time has given the impression of wanting to clamp down on it (whilst failing to achieve much - I suspect my moving average monthly flying total hasn't changed much in several years). On the other hand, I agree that there are things that could change that could improve things significantly as well. Situation normal, then.
From a theological point of view, I think you ought to expect to find work frustrating. However, you would be more frustrated if you weren't working. Sorry, that'll probably get deleted - we can't make mention of anything religious or political, can we?! Even if it is a very good explanation of the angst that we feel.
I will stand up and be counted - one! I am the "contented bmi pilot" - at least in broad terms. Cos I know that happiness is a path, not a destination! So ner!
I went to the edge of leaving about three years ago, and decided against it. From a lifestyle POV, things are better now than they were then.Of course there are things that could be changed that would make me abruptly unhappier - most of which are connected with the fact that the company thinks unproductivity is due to problems at the pilot end, rather than at the rostering end, and for a long time has given the impression of wanting to clamp down on it (whilst failing to achieve much - I suspect my moving average monthly flying total hasn't changed much in several years). On the other hand, I agree that there are things that could change that could improve things significantly as well. Situation normal, then.
From a theological point of view, I think you ought to expect to find work frustrating. However, you would be more frustrated if you weren't working. Sorry, that'll probably get deleted - we can't make mention of anything religious or political, can we?! Even if it is a very good explanation of the angst that we feel.
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It has been largely profitable..........
It has outlasted other airlines with various heritages.........
It has outlasted other airlines with various heritages.........
It acquired and expanded upon those Heathrow slots courtesy of Grandfather rights (sheer luck and a wierd law) and a sympathetic Thatcher Government !
Give any other airline a nice bundle of Heathrow slots to cover the majority of it's operation and you'll also see them profiting and outlasting others, regardless of management incompetence.
When one surveys the longhaul "effort" one realises what a shambles the whole outfit would be without Heathrow slots. I doubt that bmi would even exist today, even as a tin-pot, cash-crisis-prone, grubby Viscount operator.
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The longhaul effort ?
I flew MAN-ORD and back with bmi a few weeks ago. The seat was comfortable, the food was pleasant, the service was friendly but not obtrusive, we departed and arrived on time and I made my connections both ways.
And BTW, according to the CAA, in 2003 the UK's most punctual airline was bmi regional...
I flew MAN-ORD and back with bmi a few weeks ago. The seat was comfortable, the food was pleasant, the service was friendly but not obtrusive, we departed and arrived on time and I made my connections both ways.
And BTW, according to the CAA, in 2003 the UK's most punctual airline was bmi regional...
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The longhaul effort ?
The real clue, perhaps too subtle for some, was that I began my previous post with two quotations on the subject of company profitability and survival !
Do I have to spell everything out ? ---> RTFQ, CB the FO. OK ?
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Well, considering the fact that almost as many airlines have started and stopped longhaul routes from places other than London as are in the Flight Directory, the fact that bmi are still there and investigating new routes suggests to me they are doing better than some. If it was so awful, it would have brought the airline down by now - the revenue associated with longhaul is large!
Let's face it, Antony - you left because you didn't like it. You're hardly likely to start saying now that bmi has any redeeming features. But you're hardly likely to make an objective, balanced judgement on bmi from your situation.
Oh and by the way, your previous post was not as transparent in meaning as you thought it was - I wanted clarification too.
Let's face it, Antony - you left because you didn't like it. You're hardly likely to start saying now that bmi has any redeeming features. But you're hardly likely to make an objective, balanced judgement on bmi from your situation.
Oh and by the way, your previous post was not as transparent in meaning as you thought it was - I wanted clarification too.
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Yes, how often have I seen that 'head in the sand/just a bunch of whingers' response.
I wanted my company to do well, so that I could possibly earn more and have job security. What frustrated me and many others, is that chronically bad and corrupt management were wasting my efforts and dragging the company down to their level while they filled their pockets. That's one aspect, and one I have grown used to in every job I've ever had to some degree. But I began to speak up when I saw BMA managers breaking not only their own company rules, but regulations and laws. I wouldn't have even spoken up if they were doing such things in a responsible way with the greater good of the company, staff or passengers in mind.
You can count me as one of the people that loved my job, loved working with highly motivated and proffessional colleagues and worked for much less money than I could have earned somewhere else. I won my share of gongs for good performance and devotion to the company, I did my share of overtime, sometimes as much as 120 hours in a month to cover the fact that BMA continually failed to recruit, train or keep enough staff to cover the operation.
While I was sold off to Aviance, the writing was on the wall. The only way I can explain it is to describe the last 3 managers I worked under;
BB was like many managers because he would put himself down for 30-40 hours overtime a week, but most of it he did from home, i.e. he defrauded the company (and part of my profit share). He looked after his chronies and treated the rest like dirt, denying them leave, overtime or shift swaps "because he didn't like them". He left shortly before the company threw him out for fraud and telling porkies. Ironically, he went to EasyJet and was soon sacked pending prosecution for the same dirty deeds.
Next came DD. An ex-BA despatcher, he was in charge of creating the computer records of our performance. He proudly showed how he could convert BMA's dire performance into glowing statistics ready for the big sell-off. He took lying to a new level at bmi and seemed to be honing his skills for bigger things (scams?). He finally got sacked when someone recorded his attempt to bribe and then threaten a union official.
Then there was (is) CC. A perpetual list maker who never does what his lists tell him to. He would take leave whenever he felt like it, and usually without telling anyone. A serious aerophile (plane spotter), most of his time at work would be spent on the ramp getting numbers. Some of his typical exploits; He took one despatcher from the Iberia contract and sent him to despatch a Qatar flight, even though he had had no training for the entirely different DCS system or the aircraft he was to work on, and from a different terminal with diferent procedures. when the flight went SNAFU and a bin that should have been offloaded wasn't, he tried to discipline said individual for failing to adhere to procedures that he was never taught. // next one is when he binned a report regarding incorrect paperwork onboard an aircraft. The report described how the conversion chart was incorrectly printed and prompted the pilots to set incorrect stab angles for their CG position. to say that this was safety sensitive is an understatement, never the less, despite promises from CC to pass this on to the airline immediately, he threw it away. // The last one was when he went to a bmi aircraft that was delayed because of 20 rush bags. On the very day that the Lockerbie trial was concluding, this joker decides to by-pass security and load said 20 rush bags without screening, over-ruling the despatcher who then refused to sign the loadsheet. Caught red-handed by the DoT inspector, that night he returned to the despatch office and was seen forging the despatchers' signature to make it look like it was her decision.
What makes me sick about this guy, is that he was 'promoted' after every incident. In fact, he has been 'promoted' through almost every department in bmi, and to this day, is wandering around Heathrow on behalf of bmi in a very senior position, spreading his own brand of incompetence, dishonesty and total disregard for safety or procedure.
WHY?
Because there is no accountability within bmi's management structure, which seems to be designed to protect, even encourage this type of behaviour amongst its managers. I could speculate that they want this situation to hide other, more sinister aspects and activities of th next level of management; under the table deals and bungs from contractors, skimming and plain old fraud? who knows, but the rumours have been around for as long as bmi has been at LHR.
I can understand those that just want to do their job and ignore all the 'stuff' that goes on, but I suspect that once all the players have sucked everything out of bmi they can, they will walk away with their huge redundancy deals and secreted profits leaving the workers, i.e. the people that made it work DESPITE management 'interference', to fend for themselves.
I for one believe that the company and the workforce do not deserve this fate; to suffer at the hands of a few greedy, ego stroking individuals.
I wanted my company to do well, so that I could possibly earn more and have job security. What frustrated me and many others, is that chronically bad and corrupt management were wasting my efforts and dragging the company down to their level while they filled their pockets. That's one aspect, and one I have grown used to in every job I've ever had to some degree. But I began to speak up when I saw BMA managers breaking not only their own company rules, but regulations and laws. I wouldn't have even spoken up if they were doing such things in a responsible way with the greater good of the company, staff or passengers in mind.
You can count me as one of the people that loved my job, loved working with highly motivated and proffessional colleagues and worked for much less money than I could have earned somewhere else. I won my share of gongs for good performance and devotion to the company, I did my share of overtime, sometimes as much as 120 hours in a month to cover the fact that BMA continually failed to recruit, train or keep enough staff to cover the operation.
While I was sold off to Aviance, the writing was on the wall. The only way I can explain it is to describe the last 3 managers I worked under;
BB was like many managers because he would put himself down for 30-40 hours overtime a week, but most of it he did from home, i.e. he defrauded the company (and part of my profit share). He looked after his chronies and treated the rest like dirt, denying them leave, overtime or shift swaps "because he didn't like them". He left shortly before the company threw him out for fraud and telling porkies. Ironically, he went to EasyJet and was soon sacked pending prosecution for the same dirty deeds.
Next came DD. An ex-BA despatcher, he was in charge of creating the computer records of our performance. He proudly showed how he could convert BMA's dire performance into glowing statistics ready for the big sell-off. He took lying to a new level at bmi and seemed to be honing his skills for bigger things (scams?). He finally got sacked when someone recorded his attempt to bribe and then threaten a union official.
Then there was (is) CC. A perpetual list maker who never does what his lists tell him to. He would take leave whenever he felt like it, and usually without telling anyone. A serious aerophile (plane spotter), most of his time at work would be spent on the ramp getting numbers. Some of his typical exploits; He took one despatcher from the Iberia contract and sent him to despatch a Qatar flight, even though he had had no training for the entirely different DCS system or the aircraft he was to work on, and from a different terminal with diferent procedures. when the flight went SNAFU and a bin that should have been offloaded wasn't, he tried to discipline said individual for failing to adhere to procedures that he was never taught. // next one is when he binned a report regarding incorrect paperwork onboard an aircraft. The report described how the conversion chart was incorrectly printed and prompted the pilots to set incorrect stab angles for their CG position. to say that this was safety sensitive is an understatement, never the less, despite promises from CC to pass this on to the airline immediately, he threw it away. // The last one was when he went to a bmi aircraft that was delayed because of 20 rush bags. On the very day that the Lockerbie trial was concluding, this joker decides to by-pass security and load said 20 rush bags without screening, over-ruling the despatcher who then refused to sign the loadsheet. Caught red-handed by the DoT inspector, that night he returned to the despatch office and was seen forging the despatchers' signature to make it look like it was her decision.
What makes me sick about this guy, is that he was 'promoted' after every incident. In fact, he has been 'promoted' through almost every department in bmi, and to this day, is wandering around Heathrow on behalf of bmi in a very senior position, spreading his own brand of incompetence, dishonesty and total disregard for safety or procedure.
WHY?
Because there is no accountability within bmi's management structure, which seems to be designed to protect, even encourage this type of behaviour amongst its managers. I could speculate that they want this situation to hide other, more sinister aspects and activities of th next level of management; under the table deals and bungs from contractors, skimming and plain old fraud? who knows, but the rumours have been around for as long as bmi has been at LHR.
I can understand those that just want to do their job and ignore all the 'stuff' that goes on, but I suspect that once all the players have sucked everything out of bmi they can, they will walk away with their huge redundancy deals and secreted profits leaving the workers, i.e. the people that made it work DESPITE management 'interference', to fend for themselves.
I for one believe that the company and the workforce do not deserve this fate; to suffer at the hands of a few greedy, ego stroking individuals.
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Count me in the 'contented pilot bunch' as well. Well said, YP.
I have been flying with bmi for 14 years and I am still enjoying going to work. Like any company there are ups and downs - it is a cyclical industry - but bmi have come through whilst others fell by the wayside.
This thread was started by a dissatisfied person from EDI who has been supported by some who have already left and still harbour their pet grievances. They regurgitate the same garbage every time a bmi thread appears irrespective of the topic. I am not management either but I get pxxxed off by the whinging of the un-informed.
I have just come through the crew room and there was disappointment at the pay rise but of those I spoke to not one was leaving.
We have a good airline in all three divisions with some of the best people. There will always be malcontents and the best thing they can do is leave - but it won't be a mass exodus by any means.
Anne
I have been flying with bmi for 14 years and I am still enjoying going to work. Like any company there are ups and downs - it is a cyclical industry - but bmi have come through whilst others fell by the wayside.
This thread was started by a dissatisfied person from EDI who has been supported by some who have already left and still harbour their pet grievances. They regurgitate the same garbage every time a bmi thread appears irrespective of the topic. I am not management either but I get pxxxed off by the whinging of the un-informed.
I have just come through the crew room and there was disappointment at the pay rise but of those I spoke to not one was leaving.
We have a good airline in all three divisions with some of the best people. There will always be malcontents and the best thing they can do is leave - but it won't be a mass exodus by any means.
Anne
I am another fairly contented employee. I do my job extreemly well because I'm good at it.
However I have my gripes about the company which person doesn't at some stage.
But I do think the company can and should make changes, they want to cut costs and save money, fine, what company doesn't but they should save it in the right places. Get rid of the deadwood managers, pull the GM's in line that flount the company policies for their own means. There are departments within the company that have more chiefs than indians, do you really need a manager, supervisor,and team leader to watch over 2 clerks, no!
If you read the company memos and editorials you get the feeling of being treated like a mushroom, the same old statements are trotted out time after time and no one believes it because it is repetative.
Come on management, wake up and do something about it, instead of sitting back doing nothing and taking your bonuses that you may or may not deserve.
That is my gripe, from what I see happening. I'm not going to leave, why should I.
And to all the whinging posters, some of them who don't even work for the company, if it's that bad you know where the door is and don't let hit you on the @r5e on the way out.
However I have my gripes about the company which person doesn't at some stage.
But I do think the company can and should make changes, they want to cut costs and save money, fine, what company doesn't but they should save it in the right places. Get rid of the deadwood managers, pull the GM's in line that flount the company policies for their own means. There are departments within the company that have more chiefs than indians, do you really need a manager, supervisor,and team leader to watch over 2 clerks, no!
If you read the company memos and editorials you get the feeling of being treated like a mushroom, the same old statements are trotted out time after time and no one believes it because it is repetative.
Come on management, wake up and do something about it, instead of sitting back doing nothing and taking your bonuses that you may or may not deserve.
That is my gripe, from what I see happening. I'm not going to leave, why should I.
And to all the whinging posters, some of them who don't even work for the company, if it's that bad you know where the door is and don't let hit you on the @r5e on the way out.
As a retiree, I've been reading this thread withh great interest.
I have to say that it's quite disheartening to read some of the rubbish that has been prevalent from certain quarters. Young Paul seems to be one of the few who has a comprehensive grasp of the situation.
Sure the airline is going through difficult times with the pressure of the LoCos to contend with. As with BA, BMI is having to make some very hard decisions allied to an almost complete change of tack.It is bound to cause unrest initially but have any of you lost your jobs yet ?
MDB, by inspired manipulation of the Company's business, (which, AC, included acquiring the first LHR slots ' cos he knew he'd need them), kept me in a job for twenty five years.
I admit I was not always pleased with the affect on my existence. In fact there were times when I was hopping mad but reality eventually calmed me down.
Unfortunately this has always been the nature of the business so you'd better get used to it.
BTW, the Viscounts (my first command) were not " grubby". They were a bloody good tool at the time when the nascent airline was finding its feet and needed reliability.
I'd put 'em against anything to get the pax safely into IOM at night in a SW gale
Rgds, Sleeve.
I have to say that it's quite disheartening to read some of the rubbish that has been prevalent from certain quarters. Young Paul seems to be one of the few who has a comprehensive grasp of the situation.
Sure the airline is going through difficult times with the pressure of the LoCos to contend with. As with BA, BMI is having to make some very hard decisions allied to an almost complete change of tack.It is bound to cause unrest initially but have any of you lost your jobs yet ?
MDB, by inspired manipulation of the Company's business, (which, AC, included acquiring the first LHR slots ' cos he knew he'd need them), kept me in a job for twenty five years.
I admit I was not always pleased with the affect on my existence. In fact there were times when I was hopping mad but reality eventually calmed me down.
Unfortunately this has always been the nature of the business so you'd better get used to it.
BTW, the Viscounts (my first command) were not " grubby". They were a bloody good tool at the time when the nascent airline was finding its feet and needed reliability.
I'd put 'em against anything to get the pax safely into IOM at night in a SW gale
Rgds, Sleeve.
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in reference to the comment of job losses, mainline has about 150 fewer pilots than it peaked at.
Sir mike will not be employing anyone in 25 years time, and when his departure comes there will be only one person he will be thinking of.
As for all you contented guys, you make me feel warm inside. I have two good friends who are 14 years in the company and they have been "visiting" other airlines of late.
There is one course of ex oxford graduates where I can say there will be no more than three out of eight still remaining in 1 years time. They all have 5000hrs a couple are current on both airbus and boeing.
I think the bottom line is everyone would love to see the company do well, but we are carrying full flights yet "published" revenues have dropped. we have become a low cost airline with no desire to capture business class.
Add the low cost type flying to the hassles associated with LHR and what you get suits very few of our workforce. People still live in hope, but I think the management have "cried wolf" once too often now.
Oh and by the way, I am not from EDI and this thread was not based on a gripe, it was to try to make the management aware of the potential problem they will face. I would love to see us do well as that would mean that I could continue to work with my excellent collegues, but even I (after almost ten years) feel that I cannot put up with this any longer.
Sir mike will not be employing anyone in 25 years time, and when his departure comes there will be only one person he will be thinking of.
As for all you contented guys, you make me feel warm inside. I have two good friends who are 14 years in the company and they have been "visiting" other airlines of late.
There is one course of ex oxford graduates where I can say there will be no more than three out of eight still remaining in 1 years time. They all have 5000hrs a couple are current on both airbus and boeing.
I think the bottom line is everyone would love to see the company do well, but we are carrying full flights yet "published" revenues have dropped. we have become a low cost airline with no desire to capture business class.
Add the low cost type flying to the hassles associated with LHR and what you get suits very few of our workforce. People still live in hope, but I think the management have "cried wolf" once too often now.
Oh and by the way, I am not from EDI and this thread was not based on a gripe, it was to try to make the management aware of the potential problem they will face. I would love to see us do well as that would mean that I could continue to work with my excellent collegues, but even I (after almost ten years) feel that I cannot put up with this any longer.
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S@W
As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, there has ALWAYS been a 'through put' of pilots to the long haul fleets. Why - because it suits some folks' lifestyles, family commitments and ambitions. If bmi long haul had developed without 9/11 then maybe there would be very experienced people clamouring to join us!
Perhaps ambition is more applicable to Oxford students who have demonstrated their ability to fast-track into the aviation world. Even so, your 5 pilots out of eight must have been with the company for at least five years to have TT of 5000 which is a good return for the company - considering these five only represent 1% of the work force.
As to your own concerns, if you don't like then follow those to BA and VS but watch out for the 'greener' grass
Anne
As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, there has ALWAYS been a 'through put' of pilots to the long haul fleets. Why - because it suits some folks' lifestyles, family commitments and ambitions. If bmi long haul had developed without 9/11 then maybe there would be very experienced people clamouring to join us!
Perhaps ambition is more applicable to Oxford students who have demonstrated their ability to fast-track into the aviation world. Even so, your 5 pilots out of eight must have been with the company for at least five years to have TT of 5000 which is a good return for the company - considering these five only represent 1% of the work force.
As to your own concerns, if you don't like then follow those to BA and VS but watch out for the 'greener' grass
Anne
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The pilot numbers are also lower because there is now somethimg called BMI Baby. BMI (Mainline) is of course smaller but the group is growing by @30 pilots at present due to growth in BMI Baby. (Regional may also be recruiting - I don't know)
As for The Bish' thinking of himself in a few years time, of course he is! This is a business not a lifetime payroll. It has it's problems like all companies.
I stated earlier that if you don't like it here - move. I'm staying because it suites me at present. It's not the best but it's not the worst by a long way.
As for The Bish' thinking of himself in a few years time, of course he is! This is a business not a lifetime payroll. It has it's problems like all companies.
I stated earlier that if you don't like it here - move. I'm staying because it suites me at present. It's not the best but it's not the worst by a long way.
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As above
mainly happy,would just like to hear some comments on the companys direction instead of reading little snips of AR's comments to the press
Little less mushroom treatment,if we dont have the big piture then tell us.
.
rgds K.I.L.
mainly happy,would just like to hear some comments on the companys direction instead of reading little snips of AR's comments to the press
Little less mushroom treatment,if we dont have the big piture then tell us.
.
rgds K.I.L.
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bmi to the Caribbean
I wonder if this will stem the flow.....?
http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/sect...?p=194&rid=377
First time I've heard a rumour come true so far in advance!!
http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/sect...?p=194&rid=377
First time I've heard a rumour come true so far in advance!!
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I wonder if this will stem the flow.....?
I can just hear every bmi pilot under the age of thirty five........
"I know I've got zero chance of getting on to the longhaul fleet.
I also know that if I don't get out of here whilst I'm still young enough, then I'll be stuck here until I rot.
But ooh ! Look where we're flying to !
To heck with my long term career ! Forget what it's like working for this lot. Just look where we're flying to !"
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GGM
In that vein, I think the fact that the company again started talking about synergys with Virgin a few days prior to an underwelming pay offer is more likely to have a material effect, (material to bmi that is!). Difficult call for the FO's to leave and join virgin whilst there is still merger rumours, a nice little number by management. If it ever happens (big IF), its a long way down the road IMHO.
We are after all only mushrooms
In that vein, I think the fact that the company again started talking about synergys with Virgin a few days prior to an underwelming pay offer is more likely to have a material effect, (material to bmi that is!). Difficult call for the FO's to leave and join virgin whilst there is still merger rumours, a nice little number by management. If it ever happens (big IF), its a long way down the road IMHO.
We are after all only mushrooms