munich incident
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This has just run on Reuters. Most interesting.
Austrian changes ice plates after Munich jet scare
VIENNA, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Austrian Airlines is changing the Rolls-Royce-made <RR.L> ice protection equipment on eight of its nine Fokker 70 planes because of doubts over its safety after one such jet made an emergency landing in Munich on Monday.
Austrian <AUAV.VI> said in a statement released on Friday it had decided to change the Rolls-Royce-made equipment, which protects the plane's engines from ice damage, after inspections led to complaints about safety.
The airline has said a preliminary investigation showed that the emergency landing, in which eight people were slightly injured on Monday, was probably caused by so-called "ice impact trays" breaking off.
"New ice protection equipment will be installed by the manufacturer's specialist teams in all engines in which the strength of the ice protection equipment's mounting could not be established beyond doubt," Austrian said in a statement.
"To avoid any risk, the ice protection equipment will be changed on eight aircraft."
Austrian said it had inspected all its Fokker 70 fleet with Rolls-Royce.
"These (inspections) led to complaints," it added, without giving details.
An official investigation into the Munich accident is ongoing.
Austrian changes ice plates after Munich jet scare
VIENNA, Jan 9 (Reuters) - Austrian Airlines is changing the Rolls-Royce-made <RR.L> ice protection equipment on eight of its nine Fokker 70 planes because of doubts over its safety after one such jet made an emergency landing in Munich on Monday.
Austrian <AUAV.VI> said in a statement released on Friday it had decided to change the Rolls-Royce-made equipment, which protects the plane's engines from ice damage, after inspections led to complaints about safety.
The airline has said a preliminary investigation showed that the emergency landing, in which eight people were slightly injured on Monday, was probably caused by so-called "ice impact trays" breaking off.
"New ice protection equipment will be installed by the manufacturer's specialist teams in all engines in which the strength of the ice protection equipment's mounting could not be established beyond doubt," Austrian said in a statement.
"To avoid any risk, the ice protection equipment will be changed on eight aircraft."
Austrian said it had inspected all its Fokker 70 fleet with Rolls-Royce.
"These (inspections) led to complaints," it added, without giving details.
An official investigation into the Munich accident is ongoing.
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There is an update from 8th January with flight recorder info on the german accident investigation website www.bfu-web.de.
All those who don't understand german - get a life!
All those who don't understand german - get a life!
Tsamaya sentle
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Ok., for the English speaking community: According to BFU`s official statement mentioned above, FDR data proves that the crew, after an ice detection alert upon reaching FL 100, had indeed switched on engine anti-ice and air frame anti-ice. 6 minutes later engine vibrations became noticeable and increased considerably, 4 minutes later engine power became insufficient and an emergency landing was initiated. Broken ice impact trays were later found in both engines, causes to be further investigated.
(edited for spelling)
(edited for spelling)
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I don't agree with the readers ot this topic who praise the crew, I think they made a major b@lls up:
-there was a SIGMET warning of moderate to severe icing in their arrival TMA
-it was snowing at their destination
-they didn't preempt ice accumulation removal by earlier selection of anti-ice systems
-they waited until the (notoriously unreliable) ice warning activated before reacting
-they flew level at FL100 for 6 minutes in moderate to severe icing conditions
-this means that they cocked up their descent planning by nearly 30 miles
-yes I know that there are altitude constraints inbound to Munich but severe weather conditions demand decisive action
-they did not follow the correct procedure for engine vibration warnings in icing conditions
-they did not order an evacuation following a crash landing with obvious structural damage (gear ripped off with probable fuel tank damage)
-there was a SIGMET warning of moderate to severe icing in their arrival TMA
-it was snowing at their destination
-they didn't preempt ice accumulation removal by earlier selection of anti-ice systems
-they waited until the (notoriously unreliable) ice warning activated before reacting
-they flew level at FL100 for 6 minutes in moderate to severe icing conditions
-this means that they cocked up their descent planning by nearly 30 miles
-yes I know that there are altitude constraints inbound to Munich but severe weather conditions demand decisive action
-they did not follow the correct procedure for engine vibration warnings in icing conditions
-they did not order an evacuation following a crash landing with obvious structural damage (gear ripped off with probable fuel tank damage)
Last edited by moderatar; 9th Jan 2004 at 22:34.
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Hot Dog,
Im just stating what he told me, I am not stating that everything he told me is 100% correct.
/fritzi
PS: The reason why my english is so good is because I went to the american school here in vienna for 13 years (K-12), from which I graduated in May. However, Swedish is my mother tounge, then comes English, then German, then French.
Im just stating what he told me, I am not stating that everything he told me is 100% correct.
/fritzi
PS: The reason why my english is so good is because I went to the american school here in vienna for 13 years (K-12), from which I graduated in May. However, Swedish is my mother tounge, then comes English, then German, then French.
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fritzi,
Don't fret about the comments of others regarding proficiency in written english.
Have personally spent nearly my entire flying career overseas, many times in non-english speaking countries, yet found the locals always pleased to help with my rather poor foreign language.
Picked up some working thai/arabic/farsi along the way but always realized that the locals were always better at english than I was at the local lingo.
Regarding icing, have done a lot of First Officer line training in heavy jets, and have always advised these guys to get the ice protection on early least problems are found later.
Say for example one engine anti-ice bleed valve decided to go on holiday, and not open when commanded. 'Tis better to find out about this sooner rather than later.
Anyway, whatever the problems with anti-icing, looks to me like the crew did a damn fine job with the off-airport landing.
We should all be so lucky when faced with a similar situation.
Don't fret about the comments of others regarding proficiency in written english.
Have personally spent nearly my entire flying career overseas, many times in non-english speaking countries, yet found the locals always pleased to help with my rather poor foreign language.
Picked up some working thai/arabic/farsi along the way but always realized that the locals were always better at english than I was at the local lingo.
Regarding icing, have done a lot of First Officer line training in heavy jets, and have always advised these guys to get the ice protection on early least problems are found later.
Say for example one engine anti-ice bleed valve decided to go on holiday, and not open when commanded. 'Tis better to find out about this sooner rather than later.
Anyway, whatever the problems with anti-icing, looks to me like the crew did a damn fine job with the off-airport landing.
We should all be so lucky when faced with a similar situation.
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moderatar
The praise for the crew is for what appears a wonderful job of getting that aircraft safely down from the predicament that it was in, whatever the cause. Until the full facts are known, no praise or criticism can be apportioned to anyone as to how the situation occurred in the first place.
ES
The praise for the crew is for what appears a wonderful job of getting that aircraft safely down from the predicament that it was in, whatever the cause. Until the full facts are known, no praise or criticism can be apportioned to anyone as to how the situation occurred in the first place.
ES
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"@moderatar:
I don't agree with the readers ot this topic who praise the crew, I think they made a major b@lls up:
-there was a SIGMET warning of moderate to severe icing in their arrival TMA
-it was snowing at their destination
-they didn't preempt ice accumulation removal by earlier selection of anti-ice systems
-they waited until the (notoriously unreliable) ice warning activated before reacting
-they flew level at FL100 for 6 minutes in moderate to severe icing conditions
-this means that they cocked up their descent planning by nearly 30 miles
-yes I know that there are altitude constraints inbound to Munich but severe weather conditions demand decisive action
-they did not follow the correct procedure for engine vibration warnings in icing conditions
-they did not order an evacuation following a crash landing with obvious structural damage (gear ripped off with probable fuel tank damage)"
Maybe it is someone who THINKS to know it all before the facts turn up who has the b@lls up??
The reason for the thrust loss was the detachment of the ice impact panels in both engines almost at the same time, the panels turning by about 90 degrees behind the fan blades and acting literally like a thrust reverser inside the engine. So it could as well have happened in plenty VMC. No need to blame the crew about engine anti ice, during special checks ALL F70s except one had complaints about these ice impact trays.
Snowing at destination?
If light snow at more than 2000m visibility should be a reason to stop operation I would have had a few days off this week.
Evacuation? The gear ripped off was the NOSE gear, no main gears involved. No fuel tank damage. But 28 pax without their coats on; send them out in the snow for more than half an hour without any necessity, via slippery overwing exits or a half-extended pax door?
I don't agree with the readers ot this topic who praise the crew, I think they made a major b@lls up:
-there was a SIGMET warning of moderate to severe icing in their arrival TMA
-it was snowing at their destination
-they didn't preempt ice accumulation removal by earlier selection of anti-ice systems
-they waited until the (notoriously unreliable) ice warning activated before reacting
-they flew level at FL100 for 6 minutes in moderate to severe icing conditions
-this means that they cocked up their descent planning by nearly 30 miles
-yes I know that there are altitude constraints inbound to Munich but severe weather conditions demand decisive action
-they did not follow the correct procedure for engine vibration warnings in icing conditions
-they did not order an evacuation following a crash landing with obvious structural damage (gear ripped off with probable fuel tank damage)"
Maybe it is someone who THINKS to know it all before the facts turn up who has the b@lls up??
The reason for the thrust loss was the detachment of the ice impact panels in both engines almost at the same time, the panels turning by about 90 degrees behind the fan blades and acting literally like a thrust reverser inside the engine. So it could as well have happened in plenty VMC. No need to blame the crew about engine anti ice, during special checks ALL F70s except one had complaints about these ice impact trays.
Snowing at destination?
If light snow at more than 2000m visibility should be a reason to stop operation I would have had a few days off this week.
Evacuation? The gear ripped off was the NOSE gear, no main gears involved. No fuel tank damage. But 28 pax without their coats on; send them out in the snow for more than half an hour without any necessity, via slippery overwing exits or a half-extended pax door?
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Minimobil:
Of course I'm not suggesting that snow at destination is a reason for cancelling a flight. What I am saying, and here I agree with my learned friend 411a, is that it is good airmanship to anticipate ice accumulation and activate systems in good time.
As for impact tray damage in VMC - what cr@p! Both at the same time? Impossible!
I believe that the sequence was as follows:
The two Fritzis (AUA Nigels) were so involved in discussing the poor industrial relations in Austrian (strikes and walkouts over the last 4 months) that they neglected to look outside and check for airframe icing. Or maybe they were immersed in one of the monster approach briefings that they learned from their former Swiss masters?
The F70 wing is a known ice accumulator, that's why black stripes are painted at 2/3 span so that it can be seen more easily.
When Kurka and Turk finally woke up to the danger it was too late. Application of wing anti-ice sent lumps of ice into the engines, permanently damaging them, a similar situation to the SAS accident in Arlanda.
I maintain that not to order a passenger evacuation after a crash landing is crass incompetence.
Of course I'm not suggesting that snow at destination is a reason for cancelling a flight. What I am saying, and here I agree with my learned friend 411a, is that it is good airmanship to anticipate ice accumulation and activate systems in good time.
As for impact tray damage in VMC - what cr@p! Both at the same time? Impossible!
I believe that the sequence was as follows:
The two Fritzis (AUA Nigels) were so involved in discussing the poor industrial relations in Austrian (strikes and walkouts over the last 4 months) that they neglected to look outside and check for airframe icing. Or maybe they were immersed in one of the monster approach briefings that they learned from their former Swiss masters?
The F70 wing is a known ice accumulator, that's why black stripes are painted at 2/3 span so that it can be seen more easily.
When Kurka and Turk finally woke up to the danger it was too late. Application of wing anti-ice sent lumps of ice into the engines, permanently damaging them, a similar situation to the SAS accident in Arlanda.
I maintain that not to order a passenger evacuation after a crash landing is crass incompetence.
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Modaratar... What a clever guy you are, you do everything perfectly and the others are just sh...
OK then , for your information our company flying F100 equiped whith -620 engines have already experienced two severe engine damage due to these ice pad getting loose and beeing ingested by the engine.
IN BOTH CASES THIS WAS IN CLEAR SKY, NOT USING ANTI-ICING.
I think the crew did a perfect job managing to land this aircraft in a field, they were very unlucky that both engines developped the same problem at the same time.
But What to say about ROLLS ROYCE who was perfectly aware of the problem and did nothing to cure it ? the first engine problem in our company dating more than 2 years and apparently we are the only airline applying specific checks on this part of the engine.
OK then , for your information our company flying F100 equiped whith -620 engines have already experienced two severe engine damage due to these ice pad getting loose and beeing ingested by the engine.
IN BOTH CASES THIS WAS IN CLEAR SKY, NOT USING ANTI-ICING.
I think the crew did a perfect job managing to land this aircraft in a field, they were very unlucky that both engines developped the same problem at the same time.
But What to say about ROLLS ROYCE who was perfectly aware of the problem and did nothing to cure it ? the first engine problem in our company dating more than 2 years and apparently we are the only airline applying specific checks on this part of the engine.
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@Baron rouge:
I agree, thanks
@moderatar:
luckily the investigation will not include arrogant postings like Yours.
Unfortunately I am not allowed to send You a certain picture of the engines; one that tells You all if You still believe it was NOT the disintegrated ice impact trays which led to such a severe thrustloss.
About the evacuation: You would send the pax out in the snow when there is no sign of fire, smoke, sparks? With no suspected rupture of the fuselage and wings?
Preferably via the wet and slippery overwing exits, as the pax door would not extend fully?
I agree, thanks
@moderatar:
luckily the investigation will not include arrogant postings like Yours.
Unfortunately I am not allowed to send You a certain picture of the engines; one that tells You all if You still believe it was NOT the disintegrated ice impact trays which led to such a severe thrustloss.
About the evacuation: You would send the pax out in the snow when there is no sign of fire, smoke, sparks? With no suspected rupture of the fuselage and wings?
Preferably via the wet and slippery overwing exits, as the pax door would not extend fully?
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Just for information:
Both engines did not develop the problem at the same time. The second engine lost power due to ingested "ice prevention tray" at less than 6DME. After this they could not stay on the glidepath and dropped out of the clouds into the snowy field.
Up to 6NM final it looked just like a single engine ILS approach, nobody suspected the second engine to generate the same problem as the first one.
Both engines did not develop the problem at the same time. The second engine lost power due to ingested "ice prevention tray" at less than 6DME. After this they could not stay on the glidepath and dropped out of the clouds into the snowy field.
Up to 6NM final it looked just like a single engine ILS approach, nobody suspected the second engine to generate the same problem as the first one.
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ManaAdaSystem,
yas, according to this: http://www.flygtorget.se/nyheter/nyh...D=1850&KatID=1
Austrian grounded their F70 fleet. For the few of you who dosn't understand swedish, here is a translation:
"According to AUA, problems regarding the antiice systems have been found. Ice damage in the engine have been found (not my words) to be the cause of the forced landing. The remaining eight F70 have now been grounded, the Rolls Royce engines are being inspected and the engine ice protection systems are being replaced. Estimated time for the process is one week."
/FS
yas, according to this: http://www.flygtorget.se/nyheter/nyh...D=1850&KatID=1
Austrian grounded their F70 fleet. For the few of you who dosn't understand swedish, here is a translation:
"According to AUA, problems regarding the antiice systems have been found. Ice damage in the engine have been found (not my words) to be the cause of the forced landing. The remaining eight F70 have now been grounded, the Rolls Royce engines are being inspected and the engine ice protection systems are being replaced. Estimated time for the process is one week."
/FS
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-they flew level at FL100 for 6 minutes in moderate to severe icing conditions
"Zeitgleich mit dem Erreichen der Flugfläche 100 sprach die Eiswarnanlage (Ice Detection) des Flugzeugs an. Die Besatzung schaltete daraufhin die Triebwerksenteisung (Engine Anti-Ice) und die Zellenenteisung (Air Frame Anti-Ice) ein. Die Auswertung der Flugschreiberaufzeichnung bestätigt, dass die Eiswarnanlage angesprochen hatte und die Triebwerksenteisung sowie die Zellenenteisung von der Besatzung eingeschaltet worden war.
Sechs Minuten nach dem Erreichen der Flugfläche 100 kam es zu Triebwerksschwingungen."
So in my opinion the crew immediately switched on the de-icing and it took 6 minutes after reaching FL100 before the engine vibrations (especially the RH) started.
"zeitgleich mit dem Erreichen der Flugfläche 100 sprach die Eiswarnanlage (ice detection) an"
The ice detection warning sounded simultaneously (zeitgleich) with (the aircraft's) arrival in FL100.
(Translation note - "erreichen" is to reach, attain or arrive at, "das Erreichen" is the noun form. Arrival sounds weird in this sense, but "attaining" or "reaching" sounds like climbing in English)
"Die Besatzung schaltete daraufhin die Triebwerkenteisung und die Zellenenteisung ein."
The crew switched on engine and airframe anti-ice immediately after the warning.
(Translation note - daraufhin means "immediately afterwards" or "at that moment" but has a sense of causality. In this sense it suggests to me that they switched on the anti-ice immediately after the warning, but the German is a touch ambiguous - "sofort nach" might have been clearer if that was what was meant, or "unmittelbar nach".)
"Die Auswertung der Flugschreiberaufzeichnung bestätigt, dass die Eiswarnanlage angesprochen hat und die Triebwerksenteisung sowie die Zellenenteisung von der Besatzung eingeschaltet worden war."
Straightforward except for the passive construction. "Examination of the flight data recordings confirms (bestätigen - to confirm) that the ice detection warning sounded and that both the engine anti-ice and the airframe anti-ice were switched on by the crew."
"Sechs Minuten nach dem Erreichen der Flugfläche 100 kam es zu Triebwerkschwingungen."
6 minutes after (the aircraft) reached FL100, engine vibration developed.
The ice detection warning sounded simultaneously (zeitgleich) with (the aircraft's) arrival in FL100.
(Translation note - "erreichen" is to reach, attain or arrive at, "das Erreichen" is the noun form. Arrival sounds weird in this sense, but "attaining" or "reaching" sounds like climbing in English)
"Die Besatzung schaltete daraufhin die Triebwerkenteisung und die Zellenenteisung ein."
The crew switched on engine and airframe anti-ice immediately after the warning.
(Translation note - daraufhin means "immediately afterwards" or "at that moment" but has a sense of causality. In this sense it suggests to me that they switched on the anti-ice immediately after the warning, but the German is a touch ambiguous - "sofort nach" might have been clearer if that was what was meant, or "unmittelbar nach".)
"Die Auswertung der Flugschreiberaufzeichnung bestätigt, dass die Eiswarnanlage angesprochen hat und die Triebwerksenteisung sowie die Zellenenteisung von der Besatzung eingeschaltet worden war."
Straightforward except for the passive construction. "Examination of the flight data recordings confirms (bestätigen - to confirm) that the ice detection warning sounded and that both the engine anti-ice and the airframe anti-ice were switched on by the crew."
"Sechs Minuten nach dem Erreichen der Flugfläche 100 kam es zu Triebwerkschwingungen."
6 minutes after (the aircraft) reached FL100, engine vibration developed.
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Please correct me if I am wrong, as it is a while since I flew the Fokker 100, but the ice detection warning on the aircraft is a 'late' warning for ice build up on the wings/tailplane. In other words, in normal operations, the wing/tail de-ice should already have been switched on. I seem to remember that the engine anti-ice is selected on at 5 degrees C or below in moist air and certainly doesn't rely on the ice detection warning as a reminder to activate it.
What I am trying to say is that, given the conditions that morning, the engine anti-ice should have been selected on for most of the descent and the wing/tail anti-ice selected shortly before the ice warning.
Crew did an excellent job putting it down in one piece once the second engine lost power.
What I am trying to say is that, given the conditions that morning, the engine anti-ice should have been selected on for most of the descent and the wing/tail anti-ice selected shortly before the ice warning.
Crew did an excellent job putting it down in one piece once the second engine lost power.