Continued U.S interfering with foreign airlines
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
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Hmmm, as the requirements are reserved for certificated pilots, and aim to foster appreciation in potential airline applicacants career choices...where is the problem?
The USA will absolutely never be understood by those in the UK/Europe, so have decided to go their own way with regard to security of alrline flight operations.
Hardly surprising...and if those outside the USA don't like it, or indeed understand same, then that is their problem.
In short, abide by the security regulations imposed for flights to America...or don't fly to America.
Should be clear to all in the UK/Europe (and elsewhere) who choose to fly here....otherwise, too bad...because it ain't gonna change anytime soon, period.
The USA will absolutely never be understood by those in the UK/Europe, so have decided to go their own way with regard to security of alrline flight operations.
Hardly surprising...and if those outside the USA don't like it, or indeed understand same, then that is their problem.
In short, abide by the security regulations imposed for flights to America...or don't fly to America.
Should be clear to all in the UK/Europe (and elsewhere) who choose to fly here....otherwise, too bad...because it ain't gonna change anytime soon, period.
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Right or Wrong...Your Country!
That's not enough 411 !
Why not another preemptive war against these Pain in the A... countries which break the "not queuing for toilets" law?
You may consider it some kind of WMD...Would not you ?
Why not another preemptive war against these Pain in the A... countries which break the "not queuing for toilets" law?
You may consider it some kind of WMD...Would not you ?
Controversial, moi?
...and if those outside the USA don't like it, or indeed understand same, then that is their problem.
In short, abide by the security regulations imposed for flights to America...or don't fly to America
In short, abide by the security regulations imposed for flights to America...or don't fly to America
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...and if those outside the USA don't like it, or indeed understand same, then that is their problem.
The uniting of Europe into a true power block and the US certainly would not like the results of that.
"Ha ha ha ha, he he he he he he, ho ho ho ho ho ho, ha ha ha ha ha, he he he...."
That, folks, is the sound of bin Laden and his mates, sitting on the Afghan/Paki border, watching the Western world completely losing the plot........
That, folks, is the sound of bin Laden and his mates, sitting on the Afghan/Paki border, watching the Western world completely losing the plot........
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411A
You trying to demonstrate, yet again, your arrogant streak? What are you on about? We are talking about a general security 'arrangement' now! The banning of UK visitors to the US without a visa or biometric ID. And you know what? Tom Ridge has decided that no-one here, and in other EU states, cannot apply before the deadline of 26th October this year. Do you want to tell us what that means? No, don't bother, I'll tell you.
Anyone who has booked to fly to the US on or after 26th October will now not be able to do so unless they have a visa. How the hell are they going to do that? The airlines will have empty seats for weeks and the industry will have what amounts to melt down.
Trouble is that Tom Ridge and a whole lot of people like him have no conception of what is involved in this industry and go right ahead and make a draconian move like this. What is he on? He will have the whole of Europe turn against the US this way.
But let us hope that the he sees sense and changes it. But I wouldn't hold your breath.
It would help 411A if you could cut your understandable altruistic attitude a little and understand what it means to the UK in particular. But I expect you will again adopt your insular approach.
This will help you understand: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3378057.stm
You trying to demonstrate, yet again, your arrogant streak? What are you on about? We are talking about a general security 'arrangement' now! The banning of UK visitors to the US without a visa or biometric ID. And you know what? Tom Ridge has decided that no-one here, and in other EU states, cannot apply before the deadline of 26th October this year. Do you want to tell us what that means? No, don't bother, I'll tell you.
Anyone who has booked to fly to the US on or after 26th October will now not be able to do so unless they have a visa. How the hell are they going to do that? The airlines will have empty seats for weeks and the industry will have what amounts to melt down.
Trouble is that Tom Ridge and a whole lot of people like him have no conception of what is involved in this industry and go right ahead and make a draconian move like this. What is he on? He will have the whole of Europe turn against the US this way.
But let us hope that the he sees sense and changes it. But I wouldn't hold your breath.
It would help 411A if you could cut your understandable altruistic attitude a little and understand what it means to the UK in particular. But I expect you will again adopt your insular approach.
This will help you understand: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3378057.stm
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To all the tourists who will not wish to travel to the United States now...you will find a very warm welcome in South Africa. A big thankyou to the US government for their actions, from the South African travel industry.
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These regulations are over the top. For them to be respected they have to be effective and implementable otherwise people will ignore them and, more importantly, others regs that are effective.
Lets be honest, as many people have said that since 9/11:
Passengers now understand the implications of highjack and this has got to be the best deterrent and in my mind why we have not seen another effective attempt since. Passenger action also proved effective, without an air marshal, against the shoe bomber. I also agree with previous posters - I hate to think what willhappen when the terrorists get hold of the Air Marshall's gun.
So back to the point in question, what value does this new directive give on security? None. What value does it do to the "rule makers" - negative - it just shows they are not thinking straight on what will be effective and just arse covering.
We should focus on them and not a US - v rest of the world.
Lets be honest, as many people have said that since 9/11:
passengers have killed people who have attempted to get in the cockpit
So back to the point in question, what value does this new directive give on security? None. What value does it do to the "rule makers" - negative - it just shows they are not thinking straight on what will be effective and just arse covering.
We should focus on them and not a US - v rest of the world.
Brunel to Concorde
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This may be a crafty ploy on the part of the US administration to p*ss off the rest of the world so much that the only people on flights to the USA will be American citizens and terrorists.
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The attitude of 411A and many other US nationals in this particular instance is typical of a nation that has not fully understood the responsibilities of being the most powerful in the world.
What we should all remember here is that the information to fuel this latest frenzy is being passed by the same organisations that kept a completely innocent grandfather festering in a South African jail for a few weeks while they thought he was an international fraudster and on the FBIs most wanted list.
I for one am TOTALLY satisfied that their info is accurate!!!!
What we should all remember here is that the information to fuel this latest frenzy is being passed by the same organisations that kept a completely innocent grandfather festering in a South African jail for a few weeks while they thought he was an international fraudster and on the FBIs most wanted list.
I for one am TOTALLY satisfied that their info is accurate!!!!
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Have to say that I agree with 411A on this.
Unless things have changed in the last few months, pretty much any wannabe in the UK or Europe could hire a full-size simulator for sim check preparation etc., without having to prove anything. There are companies who buy spare sim time and use it for "management training", or simply for fun.
Similarly, the US approach to sky marshals, although not agreed with in the UK, is absolutely the prerogative of the US. The UK pilots may not like it, but the UK government does and that is pretty much "all she wrote", to coin an American phrase.
Are the current measures "window dressing"? Yes. Are they highly unlikely to stop a terrorist with any intelligence at all? Again, yes. Are they badly though out? Yes. Are they here to stay? Yes.
So maybe it would be better to find a way forward that satisfies the US need to protect their borders and citizens, and the sensibilities of those nations not wedded to the idea that "might is right".
Face it, this is going to happen. It is a done deal. Time to look ahead a little.
If I was a terrorist, I wouldn't be fooling with aircraft anyway. There are far more effective ways to achieve the destruction of targets in America, that require little or no effort getting around security.
Unless things have changed in the last few months, pretty much any wannabe in the UK or Europe could hire a full-size simulator for sim check preparation etc., without having to prove anything. There are companies who buy spare sim time and use it for "management training", or simply for fun.
Similarly, the US approach to sky marshals, although not agreed with in the UK, is absolutely the prerogative of the US. The UK pilots may not like it, but the UK government does and that is pretty much "all she wrote", to coin an American phrase.
Are the current measures "window dressing"? Yes. Are they highly unlikely to stop a terrorist with any intelligence at all? Again, yes. Are they badly though out? Yes. Are they here to stay? Yes.
So maybe it would be better to find a way forward that satisfies the US need to protect their borders and citizens, and the sensibilities of those nations not wedded to the idea that "might is right".
Face it, this is going to happen. It is a done deal. Time to look ahead a little.
If I was a terrorist, I wouldn't be fooling with aircraft anyway. There are far more effective ways to achieve the destruction of targets in America, that require little or no effort getting around security.
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The point is to make sure that the fellow that shows up at the port of entry with the visa is, in fact, the same fellow who obtained the visa at the consulate.
Not once was my passport examined for less than 5 minutes by an immigration officer and all of my papers were ALWAYS in order. My appearance was always cared for, there was never an instance where my trip would be considered unusual (student visa entries coinciding with school breaks, work visa entries from major economic hub airports). All questions were answered in a respectful and legible manner. Yet, never did the review of my passport and visa last less than 5 minutes.
Should I mention the barcodes and engraving of the US visas ?
And even an easier question, if passports are so easy to forge, why not them forging a US or any passport that does not require a visa, and no fingerprinting, at all ???
Fingerprinting, especially by electronic sensors, can be fooled as well, and that isn't too hard, certainly takes less commitment than having flying lessons like some of the terrorists of 9/11 had. Of course you could make the requirements very hard and get about 50% of false positives due to smudging of prints or even rather stupid cuts on someone's fingers.
Beware the traveller that has actually burned his fingers by grabbing a hot pot lets say !!!
Off course the terrorists could always just sail into a small port or illegally enter the country any other way, and then just use an internal flight like 9/11.....
Anyways, the "fingerprinting" measure is at least more reasonable than the "congregate" rule which this thread was based on. I have yet to see a reasonable arguement behind that. And yes, terrorists managing to get on the same flight with no problems and then needing to meet before they act, as such providing a warning by the violation of this rule, does seem unreasonable.
As for 411, yes your point is totally understood, comply or stay out. Now this the attitude we want to see in captains making command decisions.
Let's just all wonder what will happen if all of the EU members decide to make the opposite rule a reality ???
Anyone knows where I can buy stock in the corporations owning the airports in Iceland and Norway ? Is Canada an option ???
Or better yet, let us all close all of our borders and see the world economy, with the airline industry first, reach the stone age....
I am probably breaking a new law right now, doubting the new security measures....
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The point has been made already, but bears repeating; what is the benefit to security if the photos and prints are taken AFTER the flight has landed?
Raw Data: I did not understand the legality of the US directing airlines to prohibit smoking for flights to and from the US, takeoff to landing. Especially if the airline is not registered in the US and is flying over international airspace. But they caved, and now the US can direct anything it likes since the precedent has been set. Maybe if a united stand is taken to tell the US it has no such rights, freedom can be regained. But I guess that is too much to hope for. I have been in aviation for over forty years and I have never seen such a concerted effort by regulators to destroy the industry.
Mrs Head is a US housewife, exposed to TV, and she accepts all this crap completely. Won't fly commercial any more, because of the hassles, but thinks I am crazy to object to what is "obviously" thought out by people a lot smarter than me, and is designed to protect the American public. Dunno what makes me more sad, really.
Raw Data: I did not understand the legality of the US directing airlines to prohibit smoking for flights to and from the US, takeoff to landing. Especially if the airline is not registered in the US and is flying over international airspace. But they caved, and now the US can direct anything it likes since the precedent has been set. Maybe if a united stand is taken to tell the US it has no such rights, freedom can be regained. But I guess that is too much to hope for. I have been in aviation for over forty years and I have never seen such a concerted effort by regulators to destroy the industry.
Mrs Head is a US housewife, exposed to TV, and she accepts all this crap completely. Won't fly commercial any more, because of the hassles, but thinks I am crazy to object to what is "obviously" thought out by people a lot smarter than me, and is designed to protect the American public. Dunno what makes me more sad, really.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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......unbelievable...!! I support most of the initiatives the US gov has come out with...but this one defies belief (and common sense). The sky marhal issue is one I endorse, makes sense and there is a defined security benefit. Ordering foreign airline Captains to make an announcement regarding 'loo' conduct would be comical if it weren't so sad....
Message to the TSA: get real.
Making ourselves the laughing stock of world aviation isn't going to do much to help the 'fight against terrorism'.
Message to the TSA: get real.
Making ourselves the laughing stock of world aviation isn't going to do much to help the 'fight against terrorism'.
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I have a couple of questions for our American Cousins..and for all interested parties.
1. It is illegal to carry a firearm on board an aircraft in the UK. How many US airlines have notified the UK and other countries that they are carrying a Sky Marshal on board, in contravention to the national laws and would they remove the sky marshal if requested to do so by the state of destination?
2. How many American, United, Northwest, or Delta international flights have been cancelled or delayed because of concern about passenger names??
3. Do American Carriers supply the British Department of Transport with a full list of booked passengers prior to departure?
America does not have God-given right or knowledge on airline security, but are now employing bully boy tactics to impose on others. You will pardon us if we seem a little tetchy at this attitude.
1. It is illegal to carry a firearm on board an aircraft in the UK. How many US airlines have notified the UK and other countries that they are carrying a Sky Marshal on board, in contravention to the national laws and would they remove the sky marshal if requested to do so by the state of destination?
2. How many American, United, Northwest, or Delta international flights have been cancelled or delayed because of concern about passenger names??
3. Do American Carriers supply the British Department of Transport with a full list of booked passengers prior to departure?
America does not have God-given right or knowledge on airline security, but are now employing bully boy tactics to impose on others. You will pardon us if we seem a little tetchy at this attitude.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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jmc-man,
1. Change the regulations. Gee, what a novel idea.
2. A couple in the last two weeks. No cancellations.
3. Yes, if requested to do so.
America only has requirements for flights to/from America, nowhere else.
Suggest foreign aircarriers get their act together. The provisions to carry an air marshall do not in any way undermine the Captains authority on the flight.
A good start for the UK airlines would be to get some of the well trained SAS chaps in the new air marshall program.
Ah...they are well trained, aren't they?
1. Change the regulations. Gee, what a novel idea.
2. A couple in the last two weeks. No cancellations.
3. Yes, if requested to do so.
America only has requirements for flights to/from America, nowhere else.
Suggest foreign aircarriers get their act together. The provisions to carry an air marshall do not in any way undermine the Captains authority on the flight.
A good start for the UK airlines would be to get some of the well trained SAS chaps in the new air marshall program.
Ah...they are well trained, aren't they?
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JMC-Man,
Any country can impose any rules, and the other airlines would have to follow. If the UK said that any flight to London would have to have five air marshals that look like Austin Powers, we would have to comply. That would be groooooovy baby! And if they did not, your Gov't could look at us and say, "Beeehave!!"
Any country can impose any rules, and the other airlines would have to follow. If the UK said that any flight to London would have to have five air marshals that look like Austin Powers, we would have to comply. That would be groooooovy baby! And if they did not, your Gov't could look at us and say, "Beeehave!!"
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New question.
What is supposed to happen, when a foreign BA or AF or DL or AZ flight escorted by jet fighters get an accidental depressurisation leading to an emergency descent not far from a protected site in USA?
A big chance to reach the ground in more than one piece, don't you think?
Better chose a slow descent negotiated with ATC, NORAD,and every cowboy concerned!
A big chance to reach the ground in more than one piece, don't you think?
Better chose a slow descent negotiated with ATC, NORAD,and every cowboy concerned!