Continued U.S interfering with foreign airlines
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Continued U.S interfering with foreign airlines
An airline not a million miles from here has just sent out a notice to flight crew along the lines of the following.
"US security now require you to include this in your pre-flight announcement on flights to or from the USA."
"The US State Department demands that passengers are not allowed to congregate in groups around the toilets nor anywhere in the aircraft."
The notice adds that this is binding.
This is an outrageous attack on the sovereignty of a foreign registered aircraft. The jurisdiction of an aircraft in flight has been well established in law in most countries of the world and in general usage by IATA.
What else are they going to try to mandate under the (un)Patriot act? No drinks in first class because the president is teetotal? Lower standards of maintenance to help high cost US carriers?
You know the rest of the world might just turn around and say stuff you. We won't fly to you, you don't fly to us. It will hit us 15% of bottom line but we can live with that. It will however destroy your aviation industry.
"US security now require you to include this in your pre-flight announcement on flights to or from the USA."
"The US State Department demands that passengers are not allowed to congregate in groups around the toilets nor anywhere in the aircraft."
The notice adds that this is binding.
This is an outrageous attack on the sovereignty of a foreign registered aircraft. The jurisdiction of an aircraft in flight has been well established in law in most countries of the world and in general usage by IATA.
What else are they going to try to mandate under the (un)Patriot act? No drinks in first class because the president is teetotal? Lower standards of maintenance to help high cost US carriers?
You know the rest of the world might just turn around and say stuff you. We won't fly to you, you don't fly to us. It will hit us 15% of bottom line but we can live with that. It will however destroy your aviation industry.
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Lavatory procedure - Part 1
"The US State Department demands that passengers are not allowed to congregate in groups around the toilets nor anywhere in the aircraft."
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
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Are we going to have tickets with sequence numbers?
Im amazed that they havent accused Al´Qaida of contaminating that cow with BSE
What´s the next rule
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Funny enough Airway I have been awaiting just that to be said 
Like when I was stopped by a BAA security guard at a London airport photographing my company's acft. 'FAA rules and they require it'
Pointed out that this was a Russian aircraft under UK DOT, Police and UK CAA jurisdiction...didn't have an answer to that
Although the US may require this statement to be made any enforcement on a non US aircraft/carrier would be totally at the discretion of the non US carrier...and one can see any further escalation and/or bans resulting in a variety of retaliatary actions by other states to US carriers due Chicago Convention, bilaterals etc.
Pathetic
Like when I was stopped by a BAA security guard at a London airport photographing my company's acft. 'FAA rules and they require it'
Pointed out that this was a Russian aircraft under UK DOT, Police and UK CAA jurisdiction...didn't have an answer to that
Although the US may require this statement to be made any enforcement on a non US aircraft/carrier would be totally at the discretion of the non US carrier...and one can see any further escalation and/or bans resulting in a variety of retaliatary actions by other states to US carriers due Chicago Convention, bilaterals etc.
Pathetic
Life's too short for ironing
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We flew yesterday to the USA from the UK with a UK carrier, and the poor captain had to run through all this stuff in his introductory PA. It did sound a bit half-baked, as the flight was full, with plenty of children, so the loos were busy, as were the aisles. He explained that it was a request from the US authorities.
As I watched folk come and go to the loo/children and adults stretch their legs, I did wonder how the US authorities felt they would be able to monitor the no-congregating etc rules they have come up with. Are they planning to put a "prefect" on every flight and if they are not pleased with the conduct, the crew get their knuckles rapped? Plus, if the cockpit door is secure, what use is the non-congregating rule......
Oh dear, I'm afraid that this addition to the many necessary security measures smacks of paranoia and, speaking for myself, reduces what little faith I had in the authorities' ability to protect us all.
As I watched folk come and go to the loo/children and adults stretch their legs, I did wonder how the US authorities felt they would be able to monitor the no-congregating etc rules they have come up with. Are they planning to put a "prefect" on every flight and if they are not pleased with the conduct, the crew get their knuckles rapped? Plus, if the cockpit door is secure, what use is the non-congregating rule......
Oh dear, I'm afraid that this addition to the many necessary security measures smacks of paranoia and, speaking for myself, reduces what little faith I had in the authorities' ability to protect us all.
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I haven't seen this myself but, if true, it is more than a little reminiscent of the laws of totalitarian states such as Nazi Germany. It is paranoia taken to a ludicrous level, and should be resisted by all means possible.
I have no problems with skymarshals, but I won't accept the USA telling me to whom I may talk when on a flight.
I have no problems with skymarshals, but I won't accept the USA telling me to whom I may talk when on a flight.
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Next they will be asking people not to congregate at check in!!!!
or when you are trying to disembark the aircraft ( one at time please)
I don`t trust american security anymore, surely the best way is simplicity, not so many rules that are impossible to impose or just plain stupid. I think the safest place nowdays is on the plane
rather than in the terminal or in the city unless they are going to shoot you down from the approach
Golf India Bravo
or when you are trying to disembark the aircraft ( one at time please)
I don`t trust american security anymore, surely the best way is simplicity, not so many rules that are impossible to impose or just plain stupid. I think the safest place nowdays is on the plane
rather than in the terminal or in the city unless they are going to shoot you down from the approach
Golf India Bravo
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Ok, heres one that will pis off lots of people....even greenpeace. A flight left the US yesterday and was given clearance to push. Then approaching the runway ATC asked it to hold at the holding point. Ok fair enough says the Pilots, we are a couple of minute ahead of our departure time....10 minutes later, 'tower any news on take-off time'?? Reply, 'note on our computer says you can't go yet'.
In the end the flight was sitting on the tarmac for 50 minutes just waiting....wonder what for? Hmmm.
For those who are intrested, the 747 sitting on the tarmac for 50mins burn't more fuel than the average car burns in say, a year.
But, what also gets me is how plenty of US carriers passed by. Even one that was going to LHR! Did they get a delay. Hell No!
One very mad Expedite
p.s Wino, have edited the confusion over slots for you. Oh and i've calmed down now.
off lots of people....even greenpeace. A flight left the US yesterday and was given clearance to push. Then approaching the runway ATC asked it to hold at the holding point. Ok fair enough says the Pilots, we are a couple of minute ahead of our departure time....10 minutes later, 'tower any news on take-off time'?? Reply, 'note on our computer says you can't go yet'. In the end the flight was sitting on the tarmac for 50 minutes just waiting....wonder what for? Hmmm.
For those who are intrested, the 747 sitting on the tarmac for 50mins burn't more fuel than the average car burns in say, a year.
But, what also gets me is how plenty of US carriers passed by. Even one that was going to LHR! Did they get a delay. Hell No!
One very mad Expedite
p.s Wino, have edited the confusion over slots for you. Oh and i've calmed down now.
Last edited by FlyUK; 5th Jan 2004 at 00:07.
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Again, this is a tough one.
On september 11th 5 men got together on 3 different aircraft congregated and then said "This is a hijacking".
I was going to copy the actual regulation/security directive here but it has been deamed sensitive and right at the top of the page it says not to be distrubuted or copied. But the long and the short of it is, the announcement is the least of your problems and if that is all you have been notified of, your company has dropped the ball and deprived you of some very vital information that might save your life.
If you have been notified of the rest then you are simply having a go at America, and why not, everyone else is
Expedite,
If airspace you were scheduled to fly through suddenly closed, (IE missle shot off of Cape Canaveral) they might hold you on the ground or reroute you to the west of the airspace, assuming you were carrying enough fuel for a Major addition of miles to your leg. If that is what happened, the other flight heading to LHR might have been filed around the airspace in the first place.
Cheers
Wino
PS Edited to remove slot references, Sorry mate... BTW what airport were you coming out of?
On september 11th 5 men got together on 3 different aircraft congregated and then said "This is a hijacking".
I was going to copy the actual regulation/security directive here but it has been deamed sensitive and right at the top of the page it says not to be distrubuted or copied. But the long and the short of it is, the announcement is the least of your problems and if that is all you have been notified of, your company has dropped the ball and deprived you of some very vital information that might save your life.
If you have been notified of the rest then you are simply having a go at America, and why not, everyone else is
Expedite,
If airspace you were scheduled to fly through suddenly closed, (IE missle shot off of Cape Canaveral) they might hold you on the ground or reroute you to the west of the airspace, assuming you were carrying enough fuel for a Major addition of miles to your leg. If that is what happened, the other flight heading to LHR might have been filed around the airspace in the first place.
Cheers
Wino
PS Edited to remove slot references, Sorry mate... BTW what airport were you coming out of?
Last edited by Wino; 5th Jan 2004 at 00:18.
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'Hunt for UK terror cell
Hijack gang 'have British passports'
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/Distr...115870,00.html
I believe foreign security services used to call London 'Londonistan' as after Afghanistan it had the second highest number of terrorist organisations operating there. It's not surprising they are singling BA out.
Hijack gang 'have British passports'
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/Distr...115870,00.html
I believe foreign security services used to call London 'Londonistan' as after Afghanistan it had the second highest number of terrorist organisations operating there. It's not surprising they are singling BA out.
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Well, if you operate into Taiwan, you are required to make an announcement that drug smuggling is a capital offense. Where is the pseudo-indignation for this PA?
This is all part of international aviation.
You'll get used to it...
This is all part of international aviation.
You'll get used to it...
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Anyone flying on US carriers will know that this has been going on for a while already and makes not a jot of difference. Cabin crew still let people stretch their legs and often you get small groups congregating by the loos or the galley areas. The captain makes an announcement pre-flight, but I've yet to see it enforced. The crews just keep a discreet eye on it because as before they presumably don't want throngs of people blocking various areas anyway. I'd be interested if anyone has actually seen this directive enforced.
Wino wrote...
Does anyone know exactly what went on in the cabins of those aircraft? Surely the men had planned how they were going to take over the aircraft in advance and consequently didn't need to congregate in a group around the toilet to discuss what they were going to do?
Terrorists intent on hijacking an aircraft will surely just ignore the rule and congregate around the toilet anyway if that's part of their plan.
Again, this is a tough one.
On september 11th 5 men got together on 3 different aircraft congregated and then said "This is a hijacking".
On september 11th 5 men got together on 3 different aircraft congregated and then said "This is a hijacking".
Terrorists intent on hijacking an aircraft will surely just ignore the rule and congregate around the toilet anyway if that's part of their plan.
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Totally Agree
NOW is the time to ensure exact balace of controls and restrictions between USA and UK.
What is good for them must be good for us as we are all good friends.....This works both ways.......Let enforce the same restrictions thast we are putting up with.
Is it not yet time for Europe to work together for our own good, and let the Americans do the same...They have their own idea of an ideal world, so let them have it......trade embargos et al..
Spleen vented......may I go to the toilet now please Captain....
What is good for them must be good for us as we are all good friends.....This works both ways.......Let enforce the same restrictions thast we are putting up with.
Is it not yet time for Europe to work together for our own good, and let the Americans do the same...They have their own idea of an ideal world, so let them have it......trade embargos et al..
Spleen vented......may I go to the toilet now please Captain....
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Ah well it's simple then. Now the terrorists know that they aren 't allowed to congregate, nothing will happen. What a relief.
Of course if anybody does congregate, they are clearly terrorists and we can expect to see the sky marshal (well- probably not) stepping in.
It's nonsense. If the threat is real enough for such half-assed measures to be of any use, why is the aircraft in the air in the first place.
The answer is that the US authorities, gripped by paranoia, are clutching at straws.
By the way, wino, what you see here is not America-bashing, as you like to percieve it. It is sensible people completely unable to fathom the increasingly frantic nonsense emanating from your government.
You, on the other hand, accuse non-US airlines of deliberately witholding information vital to the safety of the flight, from the flight crew. If you really believed it was so vital, you might consider sharing it as in all probability, the bad guys already know their own plans.
Of course what will result is the new directive being treated with the derision it deserves, particularly by those who are not American and apparently blind to the sheer lunacy of this stuff...
Of course if anybody does congregate, they are clearly terrorists and we can expect to see the sky marshal (well- probably not) stepping in.
It's nonsense. If the threat is real enough for such half-assed measures to be of any use, why is the aircraft in the air in the first place.
The answer is that the US authorities, gripped by paranoia, are clutching at straws.
By the way, wino, what you see here is not America-bashing, as you like to percieve it. It is sensible people completely unable to fathom the increasingly frantic nonsense emanating from your government.
You, on the other hand, accuse non-US airlines of deliberately witholding information vital to the safety of the flight, from the flight crew. If you really believed it was so vital, you might consider sharing it as in all probability, the bad guys already know their own plans.
Of course what will result is the new directive being treated with the derision it deserves, particularly by those who are not American and apparently blind to the sheer lunacy of this stuff...