Helicopter Jobs 2023
I really don't know why they bother with all the HR, interviewing and advertising stuff, it would be much easier for everyone if they just had an arrangement with the uk military to take ex-mil pilots, as that is what they really want.
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Letting down below to VMC from an IFR transit at a job location isn’t something that can be guaranteed. Certainly not legal in a public transport aircraft of any type if a descent below SALT is involved. This was one question I pondered over when the push to replace a large number of police helicopters with fixed wing became the fashion.
For an organisation with such breadth you’d think that they would realise that both camps have mutually beneficial experience that all could learn from. Recruitment using a standardized series of flight tests monitored by independent persons might gain more fruit that the current system.
It is not a military organisation. They work with civilians. To civilian rules. In a civilian flight environment. But hey, what would us mere mortals know.
Insist on an IR and any ex-mil pilot has to fork out £20K plus to get one - don't insist on IR and take ex-mil pilots with previous procedural IF experience and the problem goes away.
How often does the weather require an IMC transit with a let down to VMC? Unless all the jobs are in the vicinity of an airport with an ILS it would seem better to remain VMC.
How often does the weather require an IMC transit with a let down to VMC? Unless all the jobs are in the vicinity of an airport with an ILS it would seem better to remain VMC.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Insist on an IR and any ex-mil pilot has to fork out £20K plus to get one - don't insist on IR and take ex-mil pilots with previous procedural IF experience and the problem goes away.
How often does the weather require an IMC transit with a let down to VMC? Unless all the jobs are in the vicinity of an airport with an ILS it would seem better to remain VMC.
How often does the weather require an IMC transit with a let down to VMC? Unless all the jobs are in the vicinity of an airport with an ILS it would seem better to remain VMC.
During my time in police aviation we weren’t allowed to transit IMC and as you say, there is no point and it’s impractical anyway. When the fixed wing were being proposed, the ability to do so was very dubiously tabled as an advantage over rotary wing aircraft. It’s total bull shine.
Difficult to think of a mil pilot who hasn't had to pass an IRT (whether procedural or not) and demonstrate competence of handling IMC way beyond that of a standard IR.
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CRAB@SAAvn......"Difficult to think of a MIL PILOT who hasn't had to pass an IRT (whether procedural or not) and demonstrate competence of handling IMC way beyond that of a standard IR? Not just higher standard of IMC handling Crab, but obviously higher standards than all other mere mortals........Please see below! 
On 24 January 1990, a Bell 206 JetRanger helicopter G-EYEI covering for the unavailable Strathclyde PoliceMBB Bo 105 helicopter crashed in a snow storm (hit a block of flats)! at Eastwood Toll, Giffnock, Glasgow. One police officer observer was killed, the pilot and two other police officer observers survived
On 29 November 2013, a Eurocopter EC135 T2+ helicopter G-SPAO operated by the Police Scotland Air Support Unitcrashed into the roof of The Clutha Vaults pub in Glasgow City Centre. The three crew (comprising two police officer observers and one pilot) were killed along with seven people on the ground.
On 28 October 2010, a Eurocopter AS355 helicopter G-SEWP on lease to the Police Service of Northern Ireland crashed whilst approaching a hill top landing site. The helicopter was being used to transport officers and equipment to the site of another helicopter crash which had occurred on 23 October 2010. The four on board (three police officers and one pilot) survived with minor injuries but the aircraft was destroyed
On 17 February 2002, a Eurocopter EC135 T1 helicopter G-SPAU operated by Strathclyde Police crashed in a field at Muirkirk, East Ayrshire whilst searching for a possible missing child. The cause of the accident was not positively identified by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch. The three crew survived the accident with a range of non life-threatening injuries
On 25 December 2001, an Agusta A109 helicopter G-DPPH operated by Dyfed-Powys Air Support Unit crash landed near Cross Hands in Carmarthenshire when both engines stopped due to fuel starvation. The fuel starvation resulted from a defective fuel pump and incorrect measures taken to manage cross feeding arrangements between the fuel tanks fitted to the helicopter.
On 9 October 1998, a Eurocopter AS355 Twin Squirrel helicopter G-EMAU operated by the East Midlands Air Support Unit crashed shortly after takeoff from its base at Sulby, near Welford in Northamptonshire. One police officer observer was killed, the pilot and one other police officer observer survived the accident.
On 24 January 1990, a Bell 206 JetRanger helicopter G-EYEI covering for the unavailable Strathclyde PoliceMBB Bo 105 helicopter crashed in a snow storm (hit a block of flats)! at Eastwood Toll, Giffnock, Glasgow. One police officer observer was killed, the pilot and two other police officer observers survived
On 29 November 2013, a Eurocopter EC135 T2+ helicopter G-SPAO operated by the Police Scotland Air Support Unitcrashed into the roof of The Clutha Vaults pub in Glasgow City Centre. The three crew (comprising two police officer observers and one pilot) were killed along with seven people on the ground.
On 28 October 2010, a Eurocopter AS355 helicopter G-SEWP on lease to the Police Service of Northern Ireland crashed whilst approaching a hill top landing site. The helicopter was being used to transport officers and equipment to the site of another helicopter crash which had occurred on 23 October 2010. The four on board (three police officers and one pilot) survived with minor injuries but the aircraft was destroyed
On 17 February 2002, a Eurocopter EC135 T1 helicopter G-SPAU operated by Strathclyde Police crashed in a field at Muirkirk, East Ayrshire whilst searching for a possible missing child. The cause of the accident was not positively identified by the Air Accidents Investigation Branch. The three crew survived the accident with a range of non life-threatening injuries
On 25 December 2001, an Agusta A109 helicopter G-DPPH operated by Dyfed-Powys Air Support Unit crash landed near Cross Hands in Carmarthenshire when both engines stopped due to fuel starvation. The fuel starvation resulted from a defective fuel pump and incorrect measures taken to manage cross feeding arrangements between the fuel tanks fitted to the helicopter.
On 9 October 1998, a Eurocopter AS355 Twin Squirrel helicopter G-EMAU operated by the East Midlands Air Support Unit crashed shortly after takeoff from its base at Sulby, near Welford in Northamptonshire. One police officer observer was killed, the pilot and one other police officer observer survived the accident.
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The last mentioned was the accident that I mentioned at #42 above. The pilot attempted to land back after encountering night IMC shortly after departure. I remember it well because I was CP at the next nearest unit and had also gone IMC a few hours before, but my contingency plan was successful. The weather forecast was very much incorrect and we had no cloud base indicator and were required to operate from an unlit grass field for our helipad back then. Seems ridiculous in retrospect but that was the way things were a quarter of a century ago.
Those other accidents had little to do with the pilot having an IR or not.
Those other accidents had little to do with the pilot having an IR or not.
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IFR flying is an extremely perishable skill set, which in helicopters should only apply to aircraft with a 3 or 4 axis autopilot and a instrument rated monkey boy up front. I did 13 years as a police/hems driver and I can count on one hand the times I needed to transit from or to IMC to complete a tasking. Bond insisted we had a current instrument rating on the Bolkow and a fat lot of good that did us in **** weather…..
Flying in Denmark offshore however required a superior IFR skill set due to daily procedural ILS requirements, I wouldn’t get confused and mix the two up…..
Flying in Denmark offshore however required a superior IFR skill set due to daily procedural ILS requirements, I wouldn’t get confused and mix the two up…..
Brutal - apart from replying like a bit of a nob, are you saying someone with only civilian IF experience would have fared any better in any of those accidents.
The Clutha one had nothing to do with IF at all.
My point is that mil pilots will have done a lot of IF during basic and advanced training as well as lots of continuity training and requirements to maintain currency both sim and actual.
There are also a lot who have been IRIs and IREs who have to demonstrate even better IF skills. Try being put into a UA/UP IMC at 3 miles on the ILS by a foreign student and you will know what I mean.
Doesn't mean someone can't screw up - as Griffo points out, IF is a perishable skill, whoever you are.
The Clutha one had nothing to do with IF at all.
My point is that mil pilots will have done a lot of IF during basic and advanced training as well as lots of continuity training and requirements to maintain currency both sim and actual.
There are also a lot who have been IRIs and IREs who have to demonstrate even better IF skills. Try being put into a UA/UP IMC at 3 miles on the ILS by a foreign student and you will know what I mean.
Doesn't mean someone can't screw up - as Griffo points out, IF is a perishable skill, whoever you are.
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"Difficult to think of a MIL PILOT who hasn't had to pass an IRT (whether procedural or not) and demonstrate competence of handling IMC way beyond that of a standard IR?"
I'm sorry Crab, but you stated that NPAS shouldn't insist on an I.R. but just take ex-mil with their procedural I.F. and the problem goes away? Really??
I didn't say anything about civilian pilots would have faired better. I wouldn't be so derogatory (unless my buttons were pushed, like with your dig at the lower standards of the civil I.R.) to state Mil pilots do not have I.F. skills like civil pilots, or are not up to the same standards as a civil I.R. rated pilot..I think that was your words the other way around. Hence my reaction, and to point out the multiple crashes by ex-mil in the police role? (I know some were nothing to do with IMC, but you get my drift).
Your point is that mil pilots have done loads of I.F. training blah blah and continuity blah blah to maintain currency! What the *&%$ do you think civil I.R. rated pilots are doing then? Have you flown the N.Sea? Do you know how often these skills are utilised/tested etc?
The I.R. in the police role is dangerous, as ANY pilot that utilises a skill so rarely as they would do in the police is full of risks due to, as it's already been pointed out, a perishable skill.
B.
I'm sorry Crab, but you stated that NPAS shouldn't insist on an I.R. but just take ex-mil with their procedural I.F. and the problem goes away? Really??
I didn't say anything about civilian pilots would have faired better. I wouldn't be so derogatory (unless my buttons were pushed, like with your dig at the lower standards of the civil I.R.) to state Mil pilots do not have I.F. skills like civil pilots, or are not up to the same standards as a civil I.R. rated pilot..I think that was your words the other way around. Hence my reaction, and to point out the multiple crashes by ex-mil in the police role? (I know some were nothing to do with IMC, but you get my drift).
Your point is that mil pilots have done loads of I.F. training blah blah and continuity blah blah to maintain currency! What the *&%$ do you think civil I.R. rated pilots are doing then? Have you flown the N.Sea? Do you know how often these skills are utilised/tested etc?
The I.R. in the police role is dangerous, as ANY pilot that utilises a skill so rarely as they would do in the police is full of risks due to, as it's already been pointed out, a perishable skill.
B.
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As I mentioned, U.K. police pilots were required to carry out IF training on a monthly basis, with a safety pilot in the left seat, at least they were during my time in the job. Has this changed?
I'm sorry Crab, but you stated that NPAS shouldn't insist on an I.R. but just take ex-mil with their procedural I.F. and the problem goes away? Really??
I'm not doubting that N Sea flying is demanding but so is a whole lot of mil flying which, I'm guessing from your indignation, you haven't done.
I didn't say anything about civilian pilots would have faired better.
What we agree on is that an IR for police work is unnecessary and since they are still (or were up to a few months ago when a colleague was working for them) required to do as Shy says, monthly IF practice.
So if you are NPAS, and you don't require an IR for your pilots, which group will have demonstrated the requisite skills over many years - the ex mil or the civ self starter? And who do you want on the controls when IIMC or difficult conditions are encountered - the person with years of similar experience or the person who has flown only straight line from A to B followed by an ILS?
Tightgit
Crab, Not all civvy pilots just pole around doing offshore work. Pipeline and power survey pilots are knocking around the country at 500 ft or less and corporate pilots landing and departing from some soggy grouse moor at dark O’Clock are also plentiful (although I doubt the latter group would take the drop in salary). Either of those groups are probably capable of carrying out the police role during the day (and probably at night). I think it is the night work out in the sticks that is probably the area where those pilots who are going to have issues with the role, find that out. As for the IR issue, I still think that as an employer you go for the best qualified of the most suitable candidates first. If you then need to drop your preferred requirements, so be it. Personally, I do see a case for police pilots having an IR, especially if whatever NPAS becomes remains a national organisation rather than an individual force organisation that we used to have pre-NPAS.
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What we agree on is that an IR for police work is unnecessary and since they are still (or were up to a few months ago when a colleague was working for them) required to do as Shy says, monthly IF practice
And herein is the problem crab, which provoked my reaction in the first place Quote "the person with years of similar experience or the person who has flown only straight line from A to B followed by an ILS"? So that again, is another dig at civil pilots....Thats all you do, straight line a to b?
No shuttling at night with no horizon in crap weather, and landing on tiny decks or ships unaided without HELIVAS landing systems, harpoons, nvg etc.
Again, I didn't say anything about Mil flying not being demanding?
In regards to a group having the pre-requisite skills. If one left the military, and had been flying overland only day/night nvg, and they joined the North sea, they would be Trained to fly offshore, procedural, non nvg night, IMC, ARA's etc. So how about the Police do a little training?
In regards to (non wealthy ) self starters, it takes more effort, work, gusto, resilience to work full time and then some, stress over finances, to get whatever hours you can, over possibly years to try to gain enough experience to get that first job, learning everything the hard way with zero support than it does being sponsored through a professional program or the military. Most of the time these guys and gals just need a break and someone to teach/show them some of the required skills? It's not rocket science but if you have never hovered at 2000' at night you need to be shown what to look for etc. Then test them to the required standard and I'm sure they would be a great asset to a unit. ( And no, I am not a self improver, but I have flown with virtually hundreds of pilots, both Mil and civil over the years to know what I am referring too).
And if you think I am biased against Mil/ex-Mil from my posts you are wrong. You just really pushed my buttons... I have flown with some excellent mil guys over the years, and some were just about average on their best day and wouldn't know what to do in IMC or be able to work out their situation in a month of Sundays...However, I can say absolutely the same in regards to some civvie pilots.
and at the end of the day, we are all fallible.
B.
No shuttling at night with no horizon in crap weather, and landing on tiny decks or ships unaided without HELIVAS landing systems, harpoons, nvg etc.
Again, I didn't say anything about Mil flying not being demanding?
In regards to a group having the pre-requisite skills. If one left the military, and had been flying overland only day/night nvg, and they joined the North sea, they would be Trained to fly offshore, procedural, non nvg night, IMC, ARA's etc. So how about the Police do a little training?
In regards to (non wealthy ) self starters, it takes more effort, work, gusto, resilience to work full time and then some, stress over finances, to get whatever hours you can, over possibly years to try to gain enough experience to get that first job, learning everything the hard way with zero support than it does being sponsored through a professional program or the military. Most of the time these guys and gals just need a break and someone to teach/show them some of the required skills? It's not rocket science but if you have never hovered at 2000' at night you need to be shown what to look for etc. Then test them to the required standard and I'm sure they would be a great asset to a unit. ( And no, I am not a self improver, but I have flown with virtually hundreds of pilots, both Mil and civil over the years to know what I am referring too).
And if you think I am biased against Mil/ex-Mil from my posts you are wrong. You just really pushed my buttons... I have flown with some excellent mil guys over the years, and some were just about average on their best day and wouldn't know what to do in IMC or be able to work out their situation in a month of Sundays...However, I can say absolutely the same in regards to some civvie pilots.
and at the end of the day, we are all fallible.
B.
Brutal, you do seem determined to take offence - probably my fault since the written word can be interpreted by the reader differently to the author's intent.
Again, I didn't say the N Sea wasn't demanding flying but the standard IR is pretty much A to B with an ILS - what your company gets you to do as part of your training after that depends on where you fly - yours is a specialised skill set for a particular environment.
There is a reason that they prefer ex-mil pilots for police work - it is more like mil flying than pretty much any other civilian role and the mil pilots will have completed lots of IF throughout their training and careers, where does that happen for a non IR civ pilot?
I'm not for an instant claiming that every ex-mil pilot is a God on the controls or an IF guru but there is a base level standard there before you add in company training - that makes it cheaper for NPAS.
I admire all those self-starters/funders but don't fall into the trap of thinking mil flying is a comfy ride - fail to achieve the standard in the required hours and you are out - and that is after you have been strictly filtered and tested before getting anywhere near an aircraft - calling it sponsored is just not representative of the truth.
Again, I didn't say the N Sea wasn't demanding flying but the standard IR is pretty much A to B with an ILS - what your company gets you to do as part of your training after that depends on where you fly - yours is a specialised skill set for a particular environment.
There is a reason that they prefer ex-mil pilots for police work - it is more like mil flying than pretty much any other civilian role and the mil pilots will have completed lots of IF throughout their training and careers, where does that happen for a non IR civ pilot?
I'm not for an instant claiming that every ex-mil pilot is a God on the controls or an IF guru but there is a base level standard there before you add in company training - that makes it cheaper for NPAS.
I admire all those self-starters/funders but don't fall into the trap of thinking mil flying is a comfy ride - fail to achieve the standard in the required hours and you are out - and that is after you have been strictly filtered and tested before getting anywhere near an aircraft - calling it sponsored is just not representative of the truth.
212 man - Yes, I believe it is for IIMC recovery only
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Crab, Not all civvy pilots just pole around doing offshore work. Pipeline and power survey pilots are knocking around the country at 500 ft or less and corporate pilots landing and departing from some soggy grouse moor at dark O’Clock are also plentiful (although I doubt the latter group would take the drop in salary). Either of those groups are probably capable of carrying out the police role during the day (and probably at night). I think it is the night work out in the sticks that is probably the area where those pilots who are going to have issues with the role, find that out. As for the IR issue, I still think that as an employer you go for the best qualified of the most suitable candidates first. If you then need to drop your preferred requirements, so be it. Personally, I do see a case for police pilots having an IR, especially if whatever NPAS becomes remains a national organisation rather than an individual force organisation that we used to have pre-NPAS.
Therefore if you want the best qualified people because they need less training then you would most likely select the ex-mil people for the police role.
If NPAS had an unlimited bucket of money they might look to develop pilots in house but since NPAS was designed to save money it ain't going to happen.
Tightgit
Thanks for that crab, I do have a rough idea of what is required for police work, but that aside and not wishing to get into a pprune he said/she said discussion (which is one of the reasons I don't really spend much time here anymore! The point is that there are civilian pilots who could adapt to police flying pretty much as quickly as military pilots. In particular, the ones I mentioned doing power line or oil pipe surveys or the ones doing surveys for rail track. all operating in aircraft similar to or pretty much the same type as NPAS, some even equipped with camera systems similar to the NPAS fit and pretty much all operating a crewing concept, (at least with regard to the front seats), very much the same as NPAS. That is not to say that NPAS shouldn't recruit military pilots (I was one erm, many years ago). But there are a reasonable number of purely civilian trained pilots flying around the UK at the moment whose training requirement (should they want to join NPAS), would be no more or less that than an ex military pilot.