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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 29th Oct 2018, 03:46
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
..In the sim, expecting things to go wrong a failure in the cruise can be hard work, effectively in the transition a lot of things are going to happen very fast, with good training and skill luck is still going to play a big part.


Yes, that's right. The most difficult part is that initial transition and MR speed control. Practice is required, and the only place you can do that is the simulator. Attempting to simulate it in flight doesn't come remotely close to what the real malfunction would look like.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 03:59
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Definitely not.
Can you please expand on that? Is it not a good idea to have a set of hands on the throttles for that maneuver? Was a pax in the other front seat or was a helicopter rated pilot in the other front seat? I can't see why a complex twin like that would not have 2 highly trained pilots flying, especially in and out of a highly visible confined area, at night with VIP's.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 04:32
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sikpilot View Post
Can you please expand on that? Is it not a good idea to have a set of hands on the throttles for that maneuver? Was a pax in the other front seat or was a helicopter rated pilot in the other front seat? I can't see why a complex twin like that would not have 2 highly trained pilots flying, especially in and out of a highly visible confined area, at night with VIP's.
There is no malfunction in a helicopter that requires an immediate shutdown of an engine, so having a set of hands on an engine control during a flight maneuver is pointless. Whether the crew comprises one or 2 pilots is equally a RFM and regulatory matter. If either requires it, it's required. If only one pilot is required it then becomes the choice of the operator or client whether a 2nd pilot is carried. Having a 2nd pilot on board when a 2nd pilot is not required is extra weight which is unhelpful if you are performance limited. Having a crew of 2 pilots at night is operationally sensible...but I'd rather have the performance to zoom out of a tight spot rather than the extra weight of a 2nd pilot. Tell the boss he has to drive somewhere else and have the helicopter meet him there, rather then struggle out of a confined area...even if you could zoom out of a confined area OEI at night I'd be inclined to suggest the boss to take that drive.

In this instance, my guess, having a 2nd pilot onboard would have had little bearing on the outcome.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 05:20
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
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The crew of the 139 that lost the TRGB on/just after rotation in Hong Kong managed to recognise the problem, get the engines off and successfully ditch. Not impossible for a well trained and coordinated crew, but fortune favoured them with a clear if somewhat wet area to touch down .
Heres hoping to never finding out how well Id do.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 05:36
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
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I know that I should not bother, but people have lost their lives in this accident and still there are idiots that write crap like the following:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ans-curve.html
  1. He may have been caught in a 'dead man's curve' - a dangerous situation even for experienced pilots
  2. A dead man's curve is when the aircraft flies too slowly and at too low an altitude to shut down the engines

Last edited by Old Farang; 29th Oct 2018 at 06:22. Reason: correct spelling
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 05:55
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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The AW169 has no throttles. It has dual channel FADEC control per engine and no manual reversion switches on the collective.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 06:30
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Sorry to digress a little in this thread.

Reminds me of an accident in 2005 which can been seen on Youtube - search under "Helicopter Crash at Stadium a Bell 206 Twin Ranger Chopper Crashes in Bullfighting Ring Madrid Spain".
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 06:32
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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I may have missed it in earlier posts - but have there been any comments as to what the wind was like around the stadium at the time?
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 06:46
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Experienced pilot experienced with the mission, modern helicopter with all the latest technology. Occam's Razor (that good monk from Surrey) would suggest nothing mechanical "failed". The backup profile is related to PC1 and only addresses an engine failure (statistically insignificant) but nevertheless an airline industry mantra for regulators to focus on. And in itself it isn't harmful if you have bags of power and unless you back into something. A statistician might argue that the extended exposure and resultant velocity in the wrong direction negates any possible benefit of maintaining a reject area in view, but the Jim Lyons of the world have already beat this one to death. Likewise a tail rotor failing in a modern aircraft is statistically not a factor. I don't know the tailwind limitations of a 169, but design criteria is usually 30 knots, and the same pilot was just in and coming back out, so no unknowns there. I've flown out of stadiums, they are large, well-lit, and with good references, my idea of low risk. The AAIB does excellent work and will methodically arrive at a cause in good time - it is unfortunate that they still get so many accidents like this to investigate.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 07:02
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Yep - very puzzling accident.
Clearly a highly experienced pilot apparently operating to SOPs - LTRE wouldn't seem to be a factor.
An almost brand new and very sophisticated machine - that one would assume was impeccably maintained.
Could there have been some sort of one off assembly or manufacturing fault that caused a catastrophic drive shaft or gearbox failure?
But then you'd think there'd be multiple independent checks of components at time of assembly?
Very strange...
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 08:09
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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I don't have anything to add on this sad accident itself (I agree that it is somewhat baffling at this stage - but I'm sure this very modern aircraft was equipped with all sorts of recorders that will yield useful input to the investigation) but, not living in the UK, I muss confess that I am surprised that this sort of operation would be allowed on what seems to be regular basis.
Is it really possible to get authorisation to land your helicopter pretty much wherever you want ? I would have thought that one would need to use designated helipads ?
I am not implying anything here - just curious about what the regulations are.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 08:34
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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North and north easterly winds here in the Midlands so lifting out with a tailwind crosswind across the top of the stadium?
And what are those metal triangle structures above the stadium, could they have struck tail rotor on one of those?
The tail rotor looks relatively intact, barely spinning on ground contact, but the tips have caught something.

Last edited by BigEndBob; 29th Oct 2018 at 09:32.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 08:52
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
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We know that P1 was a FI(H) but there are questions to be asked about the role of the occupancy of the pax in the left hand seat?

(a) As all ready mentioned was she in a pilot's uniform, if so why?
(b) Under public transport operations would the collective and control column not be removed from the left hand side?
(c) Was this in anyway an instructional flight, to which the owner was not aware?
(d) Why would this flight not be operated at all times to public transport standards and with a two man (person) crew?

In respect of bigendbob, the possibility of lifting out from the stadium in still air and transitioning into a tailwind really does raise the possibility of the aircraft striking the roof structure. No doubt engineers will inspect this soon and give us a better idea of what happened.

Last edited by anchorhold; 29th Oct 2018 at 09:08.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:05
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by Sikpilot View Post
Can someone confirm if this was a single pilot flight or was the girlfriend a rated copilot. I would think a rated copilot would be required and have their hands on the throttles for this kind of takeoff to insure that there would be an immediate reduction of the throttles in case of a TRF.
Izabela Lechowicz was a fixed wing pilot (Gulfstream 450/550) not a rotary. I think the media are jumping on the fact that she was a pilot and assuming she was a co pilot on this flight.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:09
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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From the bystander videos, the flood-lit compound is a walk-though on match days, linking the main car park with the staff car park. It appears that there were no cars parked there.
The portable flood light was on and remains beside the wreckage.

The compound is a split level of approx 2 feet, with a low wall separating the two levels.
The tail rotor with gearbox separated and is on the upper level, a few feet to the right of the tail which appears to have impacted the low wall.

The video shows the two policemen did their best with a 1.5Kg extinguisher and bare hands, god bless them.

The compound appears to be the clearest spot for some distance, it is surrounded by occupied car parks, a treed reserve, and industrial buildings.

Mjb
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:27
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Just a quick ask for info following something a witness said.

If the main rotor failed, could it stop straight away?? & would t/r put the helicopter in a spin if that was still working??

thanks.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:29
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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East Mids nearest to Leicester.

EGNX 272120Z 34011KT 9999 BKN025 04/00 Q1019=
EGNX 272050Z 35012KT 9999 BKN024 04/M00 Q1018=
EGNX 272020Z 34011KT 9999 BKN025 04/M01 Q1018=
EGNX 271950Z 35011KT 9999 BKN025 04/M00 Q1018=
EGNX 271920Z 34011KT 9999 BKN026 04/M00 Q1018=
EGNX 271850Z 36008KT 320V040 9999 BKN028 05/00 Q1018=

Cold evening so just a few hundred feet up wind could be 20 kts plus.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:45
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Here we go again in the press... Hero pilot steers helicopter away from crowds/city/hotel/school
"Witnesses said...."
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:46
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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An Army parachutist told me they hated doing display jumps into stadiums because of wind shear.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 09:51
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HarryMann View Post
Here we go again in the press... Hero pilot steers helicopter away from crowds/city/hotel/school
"Witnesses said...."
Well in this case it appears he might have.
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