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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:22
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How many AW169's are operating in the UK?
Have any AW169 operators received an AD from Augusta Westland relating to checking the TR or transmission drive train since the crash?

A brief search of previous AW169 AD's didn't bring up much with it being a new type. Nothing related to the TR or drive train that I could see?
The second AD AD 2018 -0197 was published on the 5th Sept 2018, and relates to the Emergency Exit Windows.

B/E Aerospace Fischer GmbH Attendant Seats and Pilot

https://services.casa.gov.au/airwort.../2017-0255.pdf

https://services.casa.gov.au/airwort.../2018-0197.pdf

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-201...2018-19736.pdf

Last edited by Cabby; 29th Oct 2018 at 15:38. Reason: AD - nothing noted re a TR AD on the web.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:26
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Very little is known about this accident so I am not going to engage with your speculation about variables which may or may not have contributed. But you did ask a question about the profile, which I chose to answer. For what it is worth I will also rise to the bait on your comment that a take-off inside the stadium was influenced by vanity rather than good decision-making:

The stadium was a well-lit, large, controlled environment with a flat, well- prepared surface. Got a lot going for it over the options outside the stadium I would say.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:42
  #203 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
AOX. its a rumour network! Rumours are OK...……..apparently!
Well, the rumour about tall floodlight towers has been shown to be false, as the lights are in the front edge of the stand roof, as already mentioned here yesterday, and as seen on video of takeoff, yet now someone is suggesting it again.

The much speculated tail rotor has been anything between failed and already stationary while still in the air, or damaged by hitting the ground while still turning.

The hero pilot has been fighting the controls until the last moment, avoiding hitting the huge crowds, despite that the takeoff is about an hour after the end of the match, by which time most of them are at home, in the pub, or a few miles away by car ...

Proper accident diagnosis doesn't involve rumour.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:46
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk
The stadium was a well-lit, large, controlled environment with a flat, well- prepared surface. Got a lot going for it over the options outside the stadium I would say.
So staistically speaking at night a stadium departure IS the better choice compared to the "parking lot" outside, understood.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:46
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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The Daily Mail has just published this, apparently new, CCTV footage:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ter-crash.html
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:54
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Landing Pad Risk Analysis

Originally Posted by Reely340
Onyl partly understood. In both towering and Cat-A, you are at nil or negative horizontal speed and need to pick up forward speed to try and flare.
I merely suggested the towering (vertical) takeoff to reduce risk of drift at night, (which definitely is an issue with Cat-A backwards climb).
I must admit I don't know the crosssection of such a stadium:
when the inner roof tips are arched far inwards then climbing in any other location than smack dab in the middle of the stadium would be asking for building contact, I can see that.


My take is that climbing vertically or Cat-A style for whatever reason into a tailwind location nils TR failue recovery.
With the TR "gone", MR torque and tailwind will do to the airframe whatever they see fit, nullifying any Cat-A dep. "recovery options".
That is if there are any "recovery" options at all for "serious TR loss at the end of a Cat-A climb in confined locations", I doubt that, any takers?

So taking one step back, I'd say this accident is a case of "vanity killed the cat", considering that right outside his stadium there are plenty of better, not confined takeoff spots.
Given that fact that even the PPRuNe pros here have confirmed that in this kind of scenario a serious TR failure is next to impolssible to recover, and comparing alternatives right outside the stadium one can't help but wonder why this kind of showing-off departure got green lighted in the first place.
We have to assume the operator of the helicopter had previously undertaken a detailed risk assessment of the landing/take-off site and had concluded that a CAT A rearwards climb out was an appropriate manoeuvre for the helicopter, payload and weather conditions. Equally we must assume that the operator communicated all of this to the pilot on the day and that the pilot had current knowledge of the operator's SOPs for this site. I note the AAIB have dispatched 4 teams to the site, one of which is the Operations Team so this aspect will be thoroughly investigated. Until we know otherwise it seems reasonable to assume that the pilot was operating in accordance with the limitations set out in the operator's SOP's for this site and that those SOP's were put together after rigorous risk assessment and analysis.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 15:59
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Well done the Daily Mail, the preceding advert was at least in bad taste.

It certanly shows a normal back up, then loses sight of the machine before it reappears out of control.

I’d recommend caution before viewing. It is not nice.

SND
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:16
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
Well done the Daily Mail, the preceding advert was at least in bad taste.

It certanly shows a normal back up, then loses sight of the machine before it reappears out of control.

I’d recommend caution before viewing. It is not nice.

SND
It also appears that the aircraft was on fire before it hit the ground
Having watched the video again following replies below, I would agree, it looks like the aircraft lights.

Last edited by bbrown1664; 29th Oct 2018 at 17:27.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:27
  #209 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bbrown1664
It also appears that the aircraft was on fire before it hit the ground
I didn't assume that.

It's bright from other background lighting as it climbs, and about the same descending. There's a much brighter flicker, but this could be a forward facing landing light lining up with the camera for an instant. Think of a lighthouse on the coast, and watch again.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:32
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aox
I didn't assume that.

It's bright from other background lighting as it climbs, and about the same descending. There's a much brighter flicker, but this could be a forward facing landing light lining up with the camera for an instant. Think of a lighthouse on the coast, and watch again.
It also appears that the aircraft didn't come into contact with the stadium roof.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:33
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Originally Posted by bbrown1664
It also appears that the aircraft was on fire before it hit the ground
I would suggest it's the landing light.

I think the theory of a tailwind influence could also been ruled out , as the helicopter seems to be on a normal climbout way above the arena.

skadi
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:44
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like something went catastrophically wrong close to TDP.
At least it seems to prove the Pilot did not hit the Stadium on the way back.
Sobering video as a lot of us do this technique everyday, in one form or another.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:50
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bbrown1664
It also appears that the aircraft was on fire before it hit the ground
Caution.
Landing and nav lights can appear this way on cctv cameras in low light mode.

The large light flare is accompanied by a seperate and distinct flare on the tail.

mjb
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 17:30
  #214 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by anchorhold
OvertHawk... Are you saying that for this flight a flight plan would not be filled?
There is no requirement to file a flight plan for this type of flight.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 17:44
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
To my untrained eye that TR looks like it's whacked something whilst under power.

Well I agree it has definitely hit something and it does look like it has been sheared off.

But that on its own doesn't help. The picture alone can't explain if the damage was; a potential cause of the accident, or simply caused by the accident. The impact with the ground will also have been very violent and it could for example have been sheered off by the main rotor blades.

For the picture to be meaningful we need to know when it happened and what it hit.

The AAIB will be able to determine the correct sequence of events as there will be traces of whatever it hit on both the rotor and external objects.

Last edited by birmingham; 29th Oct 2018 at 17:56.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 18:08
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Also studying the picture I keep asking why the TGB is orientated to the bottom of the aircraft, you can even see one blade bent over what is either the stab or a small wall / lip. I guess this could have happened on impact but worse is that it came detached in flight, perhaps the blade damage could have been an impact with the H-stab?

Last edited by FlightSpanner; 30th Oct 2018 at 06:46. Reason: Spelling
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 18:49
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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The footage has steered me away from the tailwind theory I must admit. As rare as they are it does look like a TR failure I must admit. Hopefully there will be an early initial report especially if the CVFDR is sound.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 18:51
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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As for the discussion re departure from stadiums v Carpark etc -
The risk assessment and sop for this regular site will be in the operators’ Part NCC Ops Manual.
Personally, if I had the performance I’d opt for large secure lit stadium rather than a crisp-packet strewn car park anytime

Last edited by EESDL; 29th Oct 2018 at 19:02.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 18:58
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aox
I didn't assume that.

It's bright from other background lighting as it climbs, and about the same descending. There's a much brighter flicker, but this could be a forward facing landing light lining up with the camera for an instant. Think of a lighthouse on the coast, and watch again.
The camera footage is in night mode (infrared).
That's not easy to watch, something catastrophic happened out of frame, unlikely anyone would have survived that impact.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 19:06
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I have today spoken to a friend who is a freelance cameraman for BT sport who although did witness the collision with the ground did not pay that much notice to the helicopter lifting off as such a regular thing at Leicester games. But he does clearly remember a noise before it went out of control which he described as a grinding noise like when you try and put a car into reverse while driving along he has confirmed that BT do have more footage of it lifting out of the stadium which has been passed to the Police
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