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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:01
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Would be interesting if the club has a model of the stadium, then the AAIB could put it in a wind tunnel and see the effects of wind shear across the top of the stadium.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:08
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BigEndBob
North and north easterly winds here in the Midlands so lifting out with a tailwind crosswind across the top of the stadium?
And what are those metal triangle structures above the stadium, could they have struck tail rotor on one of those?
.
The triangles are the cantilever supports for the roof - means a clear sightline for spectators
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:09
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MATELO
..If the main rotor failed, could it stop straight away?? & would t/r put the helicopter in a spin if that was still working??
1. You mean, can the main rotor stop/seize in flight? Yes, and if it does the main rotor head with blades attached will shear off and fly away to wherever they end up. So in this instance not applicable.
2. Yes. For example, TR servo fail to full extension/retraction will cause it to spin one way or the other (very unlikely however, the other servo would probably need to have an undetected internal leak as well).
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:33
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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Irrespective of the cause I imagine there are many pilots contemplating why oh why billionaires and/or their staff accept pseudo 2-crew ops?
I have to admit that several years ago I sat ‘in the left’ to give the impression of 2 pilot ops for a corporate job - but atleast I was an ATPL(H), PIC on similar sized machine and it was a day VFR.
Not for one minute am I saying that the end result would have been any different if it was operated by a qualified ‘crew’ but why would the flight not have been operated as such - for all sorts of reasons?
Are we (the industry) our own worst enemy?
I also hasten to add that this ‘practice’ is not just restricted to rotary as a recent biz-jet ‘overun’ Incident in US has highlighted

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Old 29th Oct 2018, 10:55
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL
Irrespective of the cause I imagine there are many pilots contemplating why oh why billionaires and/or their staff accept pseudo 2-crew ops?
I have to admit that several years ago I sat ‘in the left’ to give the impression of 2 pilot ops for a corporate job - but atleast I was an ATPL(H), PIC on similar sized machine and it was a day VFR.
Not for one minute am I saying that the end result would have been any different if it was operated by a qualified ‘crew’ but why would the flight not have been operated as such - for all sorts of reasons?
Are we (the industry) our own worst enemy?
I also hasten to add that this ‘practice’ is not just restricted to rotary as a recent biz-jet ‘overun’ Incident in US has highlighted

Its been going on for years , although I believe now stopped in the airline world - Loganair Twin Otters around Scotland had " Pilots assistant" for years. The KingAir 200 was another in the VIP world. I have flown 2 crew in a Navajo PA31 because the customer insisted on it ( The other "pilot" was a passenger). there are lots of examples.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:03
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Firstly I'm merely a recreational S300C Pilot, who only once could experience a Cat-A takeoff demonstration during someone's EC135 rating renewal. (of course during daylight, at an airfiled)
I can't help but challenge the departure. I would have recommended/conducted
a) a vertical towering take off at the farthest possible place of the stadium so that the "Cat-A emergency path in front of me" would be as long as possible,
b) and of course from a position where the vertical takeoff would render the AC in headwind, once above stadium height..
Reasons:
Climbing vertically, the necessary amount of attitude change to "emergency nose down" is less than when being in the nose up "climb backwards portion" of a CAT-A dep.
Being at the farthest possible downwind position at takeoff would give me the longes possible headwind emergency escape.

Pls point out any errors in my "suggested" stadium takeoff.

Last edited by Reely340; 29th Oct 2018 at 11:22.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:04
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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I have some points to throw into the pot. I don't mean to imply they have any relevance to this accident but are perhaps useful while everyone is thinking TR. Many years ago I lost drive to the TR in an A109 Mk1. I was in the cruise at 5,000' when it went. Here are the things I learned …
  • Although I instantly and without a doubt knew what it was, I found it hard to shake off (I'm talking fractions of a second here) the parallel conviction that I had somehow caused it and that there might be an action I could take that would reverse it. It ultimately turned out to be a crystalline fracture that originated during manufacture, so that obviously wasn't the case.
  • I'd been filming at low level and low speed all day over the Isle of Skye but fate (good fate) dictated that it sheared in forward flight; when the big fin of the 109 would have put the TR at minimum stress.
  • My usually appalling memory speeded up to a level it's never operated at before or since. In a handful of seconds I recalled, processed and prioritised literally every piece of paper and conversation I'd ever been exposed to about tail rotors. If you'd asked me to recall most of them ten minutes earlier I couldn't have done it. It's all buried in there somewhere!
  • I had the luxury of experimenting with this new flying machine for over 25 minutes during my descending transit to Teeside airport for a running landing. During that time I realised I was going to run out of hands at the critical moment. I therefore had to train my left seat passenger, a film producer, to shut down the engines from the overhead panel when I called for it. Thankfully he was a good learner as there was no way I could have taken my left hand off the collective at that moment.
  • Final tip - the speed at which the nose swung through the runway heading when the throttles were chopped defied belief. I had allocated 10 feet as the chop height, in reality left it until 5 feet, and still only just had time to get it down onto the tarmac before it had swung too far to avoid a roll-over.

In the end, if I'm honest, there was an awful lot of luck involved.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:10
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Another thing that amazes me while reading the posts in this thread are the numerous suggestions the a/c ended up in tailwind once it cleared the stadium walls.
These clearly can only be wrong speculations. Would one consider any takeoff, being towering or Cat-A, that has the a/c end up in tailwind after the climb, gross neglect?
Given the crew's reputation I can't imagine any condition, that would have them choose a climb into tailwind, or am I just a PPL(H) missing something?

Last edited by Reely340; 29th Oct 2018 at 11:24.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:11
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tartare
Well in this case it appears he might have.
I'd like to think so, but the reality of sudden TR drive failure at 200' with high power and low airspeed, and at night, the world outside starts spinning at such a rate that you can't comprehend what's outside, and you have no sensible directional control of the helicopter, and no amount of conscious effort will head you where you might wish to go. You just arrive at the scene of the accident wherever the course of events takes you. Even the most skilled pilot almost becomes a passenger. The best you can hope for is to drop the collective to the floor, shut off the engines, apply collective when ground contact is imminent, and do your best to keep it upright with cyclic. You most certainly will not be able to steer it in any direction of choice if it is spinning all the way down. If you have height and speed in your favor then you have more options.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:17
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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One would assume it would spin downwind, as looks in this case.
Or would point of failure cause a resonance or bias as it pitches up and down.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:28
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Reely340
..I can't imagine any condition, that would have them choose a climb into tailwind...
You'd only do it with a tail wind if you had a significant power margin, and the direction of take-off afforded you the lowest obstacle that needed to be cleared. And even then, I'd be doing it into wind (and in any event the RFM prohibits the Ground Level Back-up Take Procedure with a tail wind component).

Last edited by gulliBell; 29th Oct 2018 at 13:26.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:38
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme
Is there any reason that there has been no official confirmation of who was on board?
The police do not normally report the names of fatalities until next of kin have been informed. For this to happen, there needs to be positive identification. Press reports say that the fire took 20 minutes to put out. In these circumstances, identification would have been challenging.
RIP
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 11:55
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightlessParrot
...For this to happen, there needs to be positive identification...
Not really. The passenger manifest is sufficient. Positive identification in all likelihood wouldn't have happened yet.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:02
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hargreaves99
- hitting an obstacle on departure (main rotor or tail rotor)
To my untrained eye that TR looks like it's whacked something whilst under power.

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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:22
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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There has been some comment on the decision to take off from a inside the stadium. Two things strike me. This has been standard practice for this flight for many years, so I would imagine most scenarios would have been considered. Secondly operating in confined spaces would appear to be part of standard training for helicopter pilots. Near where I was working a few years ago, there was a copse with a small clearing in the middle. Regularly we would see helicopter training flights drop into the clearing and manoeuvre inside. There wasn't much room and occasionally we would hear twigs being broken... So I imagine that a pilot of the experience involved in this flight would have had the competence required to conduct the take off. Further it appears that as reported earlier in this thread that the video which has attracted much comment was not filmed on the night of the accident.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:36
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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The usual suspects are making statements of certainty already.....as is their habit...despite knowing nothing of what caused the accident.

Would you rocking chair experts give it a rest and at least have the courtesy to stipulate that you are working off pure fantasy.

Perhaps ya'll might just put a sock in it until some real facts are provided where by you might begin to have a reasonable basis for your conjecture.

Yes....this is pprune but even that does not excuse some of the posts being. made.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:41
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Originally Posted by Dawdler
There has been some comment on the decision to take off from a inside the stadium. Two things strike me. This has been standard practice for this flight for many years, so I would imagine most scenarios would have been considered. Secondly operating in confined spaces would appear to be part of standard training for helicopter pilots. Near where I was working a few years ago, there was a copse with a small clearing in the middle. Regularly we would see helicopter training flights drop into the clearing and manoeuvre inside. There wasn't much room and occasionally we would hear twigs being broken... So I imagine that a pilot of the experience involved in this flight would have had the competence required to conduct the take off. Further it appears that as reported earlier in this thread that the video which has attracted much comment was not filmed on the night of the accident.
All true.
At my prof.check in 2017 the FI had me land in a clearing in the woods and do a towering takeoff.
Of course it was the size of two tennis courts as he's the owner of the ATO and the helos, so he positively does not want me whack any twigs.

The video just proves that there were departures done from the stadium as vertical takeoffs as well as Cat-A departures. What is missing is
- actual takeoff position and type done that night
- reliable information about wind right above/around the stadium,
- the information flow (phone,hand signals, word-of-mouth, online internet-lookup of rooft-top stadium weather station, close by ATC, whatever) of wind parameters to the crew
hence the enormous amount of specualtion. But thats what PPRuNe is designed for, right?
Those who only want "official" facts should resort to the AAIB website.

Last edited by Reely340; 29th Oct 2018 at 12:58.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:48
  #178 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by gulliBell
Not really. The passenger manifest is sufficient. Positive identification in all likelihood wouldn't have happened yet.
There was unlikely to have been a requirement for a passenger manifest.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 12:49
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Originally Posted by gulliBell
Not really. The passenger manifest is sufficient. Positive identification in all likelihood wouldn't have happened yet.
Do you really for one second imagine that there was a pax manifest for that flight? Private VVIP transfer involving no international element? I'd be utterly stunned if there was any kind of manifest. There might be a trail of emails before the flight with the proposed pax list but as to who actually turns up and gets on? It can be anybody's guess. Just shove em in and go.

I'm not saying it's right but I am saying that it's the way it is for the vast majority of private / corporate helicopter flights in UK.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 13:14
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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In
reply to those questioning , nothing unusual in the flight from the KP happens nearly every home game
As a regular supporter myself the chairman is often in and out the stadium and nearby Belvoir drive training ground surrounded by houses and structures

We have also had for the remembrance game Griffins landing with the match ball and taking off in a packed stadium

One thing no one has mentioned is the huge number of swans and geese that overfly the whole area being right next to the river Soar and nature reserves. I am sure AAIB will already have a fairly good idea if this was the case as the flight envelope is in a very compact area to South East corner covered by decent CCTV around the ground and scores of nearby buildings. If there was a TR collision with a structure on the stadium (the support pillars are not that high above the roof line and there are no lighting towers and the national grid lines are well away from where it was operating at the front North and west of the stadium or object in the air although the fact the AAIB press conf due for 0900 is now over 3 hrs late sounds like something in the initial brief is being still worked on or cleared for release As some have brought up, there are drones up during and after the games but I would have expected them to be grounded while the helicopter is operating Again AAIB will already know if it was a drone. After the Clutha tragedy though, nothing is going to be a quick answer


UPDATE AAIB progress link just released https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...ccident-g-vskp
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