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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:06
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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Hang on, last time everyone looked, it was an insect
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:09
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GEOALI195
Not insinuating or inferring anything here-merely an observation. I've watched the Sun video several times, paused it and tried (as best as possible) to advance it frame by frame. At 1.20 and 2 or 3 tenths (at a guess), just outside the red circle at about 3 o'clock, is a white dot which then enters the red circle seemingly heading towards the tail. That same white "dot" then seems to be spat out initially to the right but them starts heading rapidly across the screen right to left. At first I was convinced it was just an insect flying close to the camera but now I'm not so sure. What started as a dot now seems to become a very regular (rectangular) shape as it travels across the screen

Birdstrike, a white drone( DJI )..? In that case he would seemingly be downwind since its "spat" downwards and left in screen...?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:16
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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SHYTORQUE "Have you personally experienced this particular failure, or practiced it in a simulator?"

Hi Shy the answer is no, thankfully. For the FSTD yes, quite a bit. Actually just in the last weeks as part of my TRI/TRE revalidations. However, I have not tried TR failures at the top of TDP as the general wisdom would concur, its probably not going to end well. However, in my day job we are in this position on every take-off. VTOL Helipad variable TDP.

You will know the heavy emphasis in EASA land for the promotion of "Startle Effect" and "Resilience" training. The idea being that sound techniques, practiced slowly and deliberately, leading to multiple events in other phases of the training with decreasing notice and increasing distraction in an attempt to over come the "Startle" (I think we used to call this "Over arousal") and build resilience. I but into this and spend a lot of time with candidates/students doing TR failures and Autos. However, up to now, I have ignored this particular trajectory for the TR stuff.

I guess my real point is, does any us feel there is an acceptable solution in the average MEH for a TR drive failure close to VTOL TDP?

For the Hover TR Failure we have been teaching "DON'T DUMPT THE LEVER". Accept the rotation, keep level disc attitude and slowly lower to the surface allowing the wheels/skids to generate friction to slow the rotation. Dumping the lever with a rapid yaw rate we think will cause the wheels/skids to dig in an lead to a roll over crash.

How are other instructors teaching this failure?

I am now wondering how the Hover technique we are peddling above would translate to what is effectively at TDP, a zero speed hover?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:17
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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Don't despair at what you can/can't/imagine to see. The posted Sun video quality isn't as good as their frame photos, so there could be posters/commentators with a better visuals than the unwashed on which to base their comments.

Double Bogey, I teach the same, but there is a technology shift that we have to adapt to: older helicopters had throttles on the collective, instant off and instant (relatively) stop of rotation. All new helicopters have remote throttles you can't reach, and dumping the collective is a crude tool that only takes away part of the torque.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:19
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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I'm still not at all convinced that it's anywhere near the helicopter at any stage. Granted, it does fly right out of where the cab sits in the frame, but I think that's just pure coincidence.

Whatever it is will almost certainly have been elongated in the video because of the slow shutter speed being used on the camera (on account of it being dark above the stadium) and the speed of travel of the object (which if you assume it to have originated from the helicopter must be somewhere in the ballpark of 300mph!).
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:28
  #386 (permalink)  
 
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A paused frame can be said to look like almost anything with a white blob on it.

The context is various white blobs, some moving across, some up, some down, some back and forth...even while the a/c moves over beyond the stadium...They're bugs..
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:29
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Granted, it does fly right out of where the cab sits in the frame, but I think that's just pure coincidence.
As I mentioned above, I think that it is just too much coincidence for an 'insect' to appear to come out of the exact point you would expect if there was a problem with the TR. Yes there are some other light 'flutterings' in the video but nothing like that and I also don't think the camera is focused to give the CCTV type insect images we often see . Given the statement from Tony Cable, I'm pretty much convinced that is something from the TR area letting go. As someone else wrote, it's unlikely he would have said that without some inside knowledge so I guess we'll know soon enough.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:38
  #388 (permalink)  
 
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When eventually the facts are known, it is unlikely that the cause will be anything other than something that has happened before.
This is a very public accident which will sadly reinforce a poor perception that helicopter flying is dangerous.
Hopefully everyone commenting and reading will bear that in mind and remember the incredible things that could not be achieved without rotorcraft, the vast majority of which goes by safely and unnoticed.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:42
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by strake
As I mentioned above, I think that it is just too much coincidence for an 'insect' to appear to come out of the exact point you would expect if there was a problem with the TR. Yes there are some other light 'flutterings' in the video but nothing like that and I also don't think the camera is focused to give the CCTV type insect images we often see . Given the statement from Tony Cable, I'm pretty much convinced that is something from the TR area letting go. As someone else wrote, it's unlikely he would have said that without some inside knowledge so I guess we'll know soon enough.
As crab@ points out, if you are not of the opinion that it's just a bug, you have to concede that whatever it is initially appears behind the helicopter, so is unlikely to be anything letting go from the TR area? I doubt there are too many at this stage not expecting the accident to be related to some kind of TR failure....

Last edited by KarlADrage; 31st Oct 2018 at 18:43. Reason: Typo
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:43
  #390 (permalink)  
 
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In the Bell 412 Sim, while training a very large metropolitan police force's aviation section, at their insistence we experimented with several interesting scenario's involving Tail Rotor failures of all kinds, main drive shaft failures, and even broken MR Pitch link failures at various hover heights .

Some were very high AGL as there are some very tall buildings in that particular city.

The interest was due to their doing various kinds of work involving hovering, hoisting/winching, and fixed line hauls of tactical personnel.

The 412 has an advantage....collective mounted hand throttles which aided in the Pilot being able to move the Collective AND simultaneously roll off the Engine RPM.

Knowing the failure was coming certainly added to the success rate in achieving a good outcome.

Height above ground, Indicated airspeed in the hover, and aircraft gross weight also played a role.

Not knowing the failure was coming and also not knowing what the failure was played a strong role in reducing the positive outcomes....but after a lot of training time....the outcomes were better than when experienced on the first flight where failures were random and a surprise.

The thing to remember....Simulators are just that....Engineers best guesses as to how the actual aircraft will react.

Some critical failures require very quick and exactly appropriate reactions....delay or apply the wrong technique and it does not end well.



I watched a TRE/IRE follow his company's SOP and kill himself (in the sim thankfully) due to the Emergency Checklist and SOP being incorrectly written.

He had been advised of the problem with his Company's procedures and copped a very arrogant and rude attitude and insisted the matter was not up for discussion.

Nothing had to be said in the long drawn out bit of silence as we waited for the Sim to restore itself.

His hat size reduction was only temporary as it is with those kinds of folks.

An observation: Question was raised about stowing the landing gear......why not leave the Landing Gear down until established on your Climb out at Vbroc AND a safe height?

As to holding the Collective and living with the rotation during a Tail Rotor failure at a Hover.....plainly does not fully understand how quickly the rotation accelerates while doing that.

To discuss the better procedure to follow has a lot to do with what Type and Model aircraft that is involved.

Bell products with Collective mounted motorcycle style hand throttles....simply rolling the throttle(s) off and doing a hovering autorotation can be the exact right thing to do.

But that does not work for all tail rotor failures in the hover or very slow speed across the ground.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 18:59
  #391 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by stagger
When thinking about what these specks might be - it is worth noting that this didn't happen during summer. It was a dark, cold evening - you won't find too many insects flying around in these conditions.
plenty of leaves though and lots of air moving around the stadium due to the presence of a departing helicopter.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 19:00
  #392 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
hmmm i dunno...a spiralling out of control helicopter that appears to not hit a thing on its departure??? something somewhere had to have happened.
Got it. Wild guess. Having reviewed John E's video posting(reposting?) I reserve judgment for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is lack of familiarity with that particular model, the local area around the stadium where this flight took place, and no idea of what the load out was. (Full bag of gas or not? etc).
But again, I digress, could have just as easily been a sleepy mechanic not torquing the bolts correctly.
Maybe. I hope not, but it has happened before.
I see lots of things on the pictures and videos that pique my interest.
Me too. But I chose not to leap to conclusions.
What I had hoped in asking that question of you was, since I had a hard time singling anything out in the videos (posted) available to examine, that you had seen something that I had not and could have explained that to me.
leave the thread and don't come back.
You are invited to do likewise if you can't answer my question with a bit more civility.
Having flown helicopters, taught helicopter flying, and having had the opportunity to participate in accident investigations (fatal and not fatal) my interest is professional, not that of a gadfly. As you claim to be involved in maintenance, I can appreciate your interest as well.
The amount of misinformation (and in one case, possible slander or libel) posted during the discussion is disappointing.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 19:10
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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LoneWolf,

unfortunately public forums will never stop with misinformation, thats an impossible task.
everyone is entitled to their opinion, experienced or otherwise.

it is hard to distinguish a persons demeanour thru written words, and if I misunderstood yours, I apologize. I too seek the truth of what happened, everything in the middle of that process is an exercise in patience. I will always participate, even if i end up being wrong.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 19:12
  #394 (permalink)  
 
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The amount of misinformation (and in one case, possible slander or libel) posted during the discussion is disappointing
thats an understatement! I can hardly bear to visit this thread. Iíve never seen such bollocks!!!
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 19:29
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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Ok, I find this forum amazing at provinding information on various accidents that i am interested in when the news outlets "get bored" of reporting information, I follow all the accidents and incidents on here for information from fellow pilots, there is much rumor but everyone is entiltled to speculate on what happed just use your judgement to pick out the bits you feel are key and filter out the "opinions" that you decide are no so.

There is lots of speculation and hear say but thats the world we live in... our papers and news outlets are just as bad on different subjects.

I am a fixed wing pilot and have zero helo knowledge but its been nice to read and learn from heli pilots on here all the various details of heli ops ( i never knew a heli departure was so precise and complex)

Thank you, and RIP and condolences all involved in this terrbile accident
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 20:19
  #396 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
I will always participate, even if i end up being wrong.
My track record for the past ten years is that I do roughly the same; when we are wrong, we can learn something, sometimes. Cheers.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 20:33
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As a man of few words, I fully concur with 212mans’ last sentence.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 21:03
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by finalchecksplease
Offshore oil & gas drifting up & back is a big no no...
Decades ago I was on the MCP01 rig when a departing helicopter did just that, struck the comms mast and was immediately dumped back on to the helideck. It was several days before it was repaired sufficiently to be flown out but with no passengers on board. All movements on and off were made by surface vessel until the helideck was vacated.

However, I came here looking for insight having just watched a Youtube video of this helicopter departure and spin down. Right at the start of the video there is a huge puff of smoke from the exhaust, quickly whipped away, like an old diesel tractor firing up. Not saying this is connected with this accident but is that normal? Not something I have ever seen before.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 21:15
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Originally Posted by Chuck Glider

However, I came here looking for insight having just watched a Youtube video of this helicopter departure and spin down. Right at the start of the video there is a huge puff of smoke from the exhaust, quickly whipped away, like an old diesel tractor firing up. Not saying this is connected with this accident but is that normal? Not something I have ever seen before.
Post 387 above addresses this
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 21:28
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thats an understatement! I can hardly bear to visit this thread. I’ve never seen such bollocks!!![
It is inevitable that an open internet forum will attract all sorts of nonsense whenever an accident occurs. That does mean such discussion is completely valueless. There are experienced rotor jocks posting here (I am not one such) who make a valued contribution to a subject which hopefully makes all helicopter pilots revisit their own emergency drills etc. The dissemination of accident reports and crew room chatter has always been, and will always be, a vital source of flight safety awareness for the professional aviator.

Guys and girls that fly helicopters, or are learning to fly helicopters, will be able to discern the valuable posts from the obvious "b*****ks" or at least ask questions if they require clarification.

Accident debates often offend somebody or other, it is the nature of things...but in all matters aviation it is important - nay, vital - that they continue. Hopefully, soberly, respectfully and advisedly. But it's the internet and sometimes that's not always going to be the case.

As for journalists stepping by and picking up and printing horse manure...seriously who the heck cares? Surely all educated people know that a large percentage of what is printed these days in newspapers is agenda-led, headline-grabbing codswallop, irrespective of the subject matter. Sure it will influence Joe Public, but that's going to happen regardless of anything that is posted on here.
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