AS332L2 Ditching off Shetland: 23rd August 2013
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Search is continuing of Garth's Ness this morning, a small local craft, the Ruby May ( not on AIS ) is now involved. :-
Bibby Polaris & Ruby May IMG_8313 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
also taking up some of the slack, S92 G-WNSF operating out of Sumburgh today :-
S92 G-WNSF IMG_8305 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Bibby Polaris & Ruby May IMG_8313 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
also taking up some of the slack, S92 G-WNSF operating out of Sumburgh today :-
S92 G-WNSF IMG_8305 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
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I would advise anyone interested to get fixed wing rating
plenty of jobs around in se asia and conditions good
I was on the super puma 1982 onwards, it was a worry then
went fixed wing and never looked back
still current on R44 though
helicopters that behave are fun
plenty of jobs around in se asia and conditions good
I was on the super puma 1982 onwards, it was a worry then
went fixed wing and never looked back
still current on R44 though
helicopters that behave are fun
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First of all, RIP the four.
I've been following this thread with interest and some good information has come out.
I work offshore and the way I get there is by helicopter, I've been a passenger from the Arctic to the South Atlantic and a lot of regions in between - I accept this and have absolute faith in the pilots and the maintenance crews regardless of what type of helo it is or where it is.
If the pilots are happy to fly the helo, then I'm happy to be a passenger.
If a helo is delayed due to "technical" issues - well, good call, check it out and resume operations when the issue is resolved.
All involved in the flying and maintenance are professionals - are you going to knowingly put yourselves at risk? Is the maintenance team going to put you and the passengers at risk? The answer is no!
Every form of transport has risks, from walking to flight. We all accept this, so why the hysteria at the moment towards the Puma fleet of all types? Totally illogical in my eyes.
I'm flying out of Aberdeen tomorrow morning, do I have any reservations?
No. I'm in the hands of professionals.
So to the teams that get us to and from work, thank you.
Al
I like the term SLF
I've been following this thread with interest and some good information has come out.
I work offshore and the way I get there is by helicopter, I've been a passenger from the Arctic to the South Atlantic and a lot of regions in between - I accept this and have absolute faith in the pilots and the maintenance crews regardless of what type of helo it is or where it is.
If the pilots are happy to fly the helo, then I'm happy to be a passenger.
If a helo is delayed due to "technical" issues - well, good call, check it out and resume operations when the issue is resolved.
All involved in the flying and maintenance are professionals - are you going to knowingly put yourselves at risk? Is the maintenance team going to put you and the passengers at risk? The answer is no!
Every form of transport has risks, from walking to flight. We all accept this, so why the hysteria at the moment towards the Puma fleet of all types? Totally illogical in my eyes.
I'm flying out of Aberdeen tomorrow morning, do I have any reservations?
No. I'm in the hands of professionals.
So to the teams that get us to and from work, thank you.
Al
I like the term SLF
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With regard to high level floats, I was involved in some R & D work for such a system, the overall theory being that the high level floats would trigger on one side only (Higher level Saline switch maybe?) thus preventing total capsize and allowing escape routes to open air. The technology is very simple, however key challenges were flot bag deformation around doors and rotors leading to swift puncture and also where to actually stow the bags. There isn't a lot of room up around the gearbox to house the size of bags you'd actually need for the system to be effective.
The other solution is to mount the main flot gear higher abover the water line and go for a partial sinking of the cabin as a trade off for stability, this technique was suggested for the Apache, however egress from a partially submerged cockpit was an issue.. I think the use of a canopy MDC was mooted.?
As I recall the high level floats project was shelved in 2009 due to lack of interest from CAA / Operators / Manufacturers. I hasten to add that was only from a GKN perspective. I do know others such as Dart and AeroSekur also looked at the idea, but not sure they got much traction either. I'm no longer in the Emer Flot Gear business so my intel may not be current.
The other solution is to mount the main flot gear higher abover the water line and go for a partial sinking of the cabin as a trade off for stability, this technique was suggested for the Apache, however egress from a partially submerged cockpit was an issue.. I think the use of a canopy MDC was mooted.?
As I recall the high level floats project was shelved in 2009 due to lack of interest from CAA / Operators / Manufacturers. I hasten to add that was only from a GKN perspective. I do know others such as Dart and AeroSekur also looked at the idea, but not sure they got much traction either. I'm no longer in the Emer Flot Gear business so my intel may not be current.
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How much of an uproar would it cause if helicopter passengers were told, 'You're a big guy, so sit by the door. You're a slim guy, so sit by the removable window. You can fit through it easily, and agile enough to do it quickly.'?
My guess is that the slimmer passengers would complain like mad that they are being moved away from the larger exit, despite the fact that such a process would give a greater chance of getting everyone out alive, and it wouldn't have crossed their minds if it hadn't been brought to their attention.
There are some aspects of improving flight safety that, whilst valid, are likely never to see the light of day...
My guess is that the slimmer passengers would complain like mad that they are being moved away from the larger exit, despite the fact that such a process would give a greater chance of getting everyone out alive, and it wouldn't have crossed their minds if it hadn't been brought to their attention.
There are some aspects of improving flight safety that, whilst valid, are likely never to see the light of day...
I immediately pursued this with our customer (for offshore work the pax are users, the oil company is the customer) and I was told unequivocally that this was a lawsuit they had already lost and that if we wished to remain on contract, we would carry him offshore.
Quote:
How much of an uproar would it cause if helicopter passengers were told, 'You're a big guy, so sit by the door. You're a slim guy, so sit by the removable window. You can fit through it easily, and agile enough to do it quickly.'?
Really? You haven't seen our " emergency exit ring" then. Its a template of a type 4 exit. If it fits over you, OK. If not, no fly.
How much of an uproar would it cause if helicopter passengers were told, 'You're a big guy, so sit by the door. You're a slim guy, so sit by the removable window. You can fit through it easily, and agile enough to do it quickly.'?
Really? You haven't seen our " emergency exit ring" then. Its a template of a type 4 exit. If it fits over you, OK. If not, no fly.
As good as the Pilot accounts shall be....they do not necessarily tell the whole and entire truth of the event. Not that they are being intentionally deceitful....not at all....just that they were deluged with inputs, sounds, lights, physical forces, and as is common in very serious emergency situations....took actions that were a result of training and experience that they may not even recall having done.
The CVR and Data Recorder does not suffer from those Human weaknesses....the wee digital memory they use retains everything without any emotion or psychological constraints. They too have their weaknesses but when combined with all of the evidence the AAIB shall discover.....the Truth of this tragedy will very likely be found.
The CVR and Data Recorder does not suffer from those Human weaknesses....the wee digital memory they use retains everything without any emotion or psychological constraints. They too have their weaknesses but when combined with all of the evidence the AAIB shall discover.....the Truth of this tragedy will very likely be found.
=======
Also FWIW, the first person I saw after waking up in hospital was a man in a suit who asked me only "was it a problem with the aircraft that we need to tell everybody about" (or words close and to that effect). I said no, it was us. The rest of the world didn't receive any additional information for some time, because they didn't need to.
I wasn't considered fit for any other "interview", due to injuries, for about a week as I recall.
=======
The info the FDR told me about what we did and didn't do right was amazing!
Last edited by pilot and apprentice; 28th Aug 2013 at 10:22.
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Nail on the head?
I've been following this thread with great interest and like many, I'm very interested in the factors leading/contributing to this sad accident. Let's hope we can take away something good so the 4 lives are not lost for nothing....
Emotions are running high which is understandable but the industry will benefit as a whole if we try to focus on facts and the 'big picture'.
With that in mind I found the post of 26500lbs #604, very informative and non-judgemental.
Imho he hit the nail on the head!
ND
Emotions are running high which is understandable but the industry will benefit as a whole if we try to focus on facts and the 'big picture'.
With that in mind I found the post of 26500lbs #604, very informative and non-judgemental.
Imho he hit the nail on the head!
ND
HC, what about the other end?
IMO one of the most precise bits of flying required is when approaching a single platform at night with no wind and no horizon. It’s a perfect blend of visual and instrument flying that requires inputs that still renders offshore flying a skills based profession. Ok, there’s not many days when there’s no wind on the NS but the requirement for hands on flying is evident. I haven’t flown the 225, but I venture to suggest the requirement still exists. Until the industry comes up with an offshore approach aid equivalent to the ILS, then I think every chance should be taken to practice manual flying in actual conditions, as opposed to the simulator – particularly approaches. And that includes the ILS - you state that there has only been one occasion when a manual ILS had to be flown due to equipment failure, but on how many occasions has flying a manual ILS resulted in an accident? None, I believe. Maybe a good idea to look at the threads regarding automated flying in the FW world – aka Asiana for example.
IMO one of the most precise bits of flying required is when approaching a single platform at night with no wind and no horizon. It’s a perfect blend of visual and instrument flying that requires inputs that still renders offshore flying a skills based profession. Ok, there’s not many days when there’s no wind on the NS but the requirement for hands on flying is evident. I haven’t flown the 225, but I venture to suggest the requirement still exists. Until the industry comes up with an offshore approach aid equivalent to the ILS, then I think every chance should be taken to practice manual flying in actual conditions, as opposed to the simulator – particularly approaches. And that includes the ILS - you state that there has only been one occasion when a manual ILS had to be flown due to equipment failure, but on how many occasions has flying a manual ILS resulted in an accident? None, I believe. Maybe a good idea to look at the threads regarding automated flying in the FW world – aka Asiana for example.
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I had a passenger a few years ago whose weight was in excess of 450 lbs
Si
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I left the N Sea many years ago now and have since defected to FW but am very interested in the remarks that have been made here about the use of automation, especially a "requirement" to use coupled ILS, autopilot on takeoff and no manual practice outside day VMC. Have I got that right?
Could someone put my understanding on N Sea automation policy right as there are parallels with FW and the situation is causing much debate on that side of the fence too. It would be most instructive to know how you guys do it nowadays as a comparison, inc the FO development sims mentioned.
Could someone put my understanding on N Sea automation policy right as there are parallels with FW and the situation is causing much debate on that side of the fence too. It would be most instructive to know how you guys do it nowadays as a comparison, inc the FO development sims mentioned.
Wasp flotation? I would prefer to be in a helicopter that stayed the right way up in heavy seas ,even if I did have to wait until the blades stopped and clamber out on the roof/ into a life raft from a semi submerged position, than trying to reorientate myself from an upside down cabin also full of water. It's a no brainer to me .
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The possibility of CFIT has been raised a few times, but there is also a weather phenomenon which hasn't been mentioned, probably because it is extremely unlikely to have played a part. It is the waterspout, which most of us have seen, but never at this time of year that I can recall.
Some 10 years ago a helicopter was returning to Shetland from the Basin and was flying inside cloud. Suddenly it swung violently, so much so that the pilots thought they had lost drive to the tail rotor. Immediately they entered autorotation and commenced the drills for a power-off ditching.
Shortly their descent brought them out of cloud and the handling pilot began to feel that he still had control of the tail rotor with his pedals. Very fortunately they had not yet shut down the engines, as required in a tail rotor drive failure and gingerly pulled out of the descent until they found themselves back in normal flight.
The aircraft landed safely back at base and was eventually given a complete overhaul and replacement of any components which might have been overstressed. The investigation concluded that a waterspout was to blame.
The weather last Fiday wasn't of the kind where I might expect waterspouts. The wind was quite strong from about 140 degrees, so at 2 miles on final approach to 09, they were 3 miles downwind of Sumburgh Head and probably descending a few hundred feet above the surface.
We have all experienced the effect of the Grampian mountains giving strong up and down air currents, even beyond 80 miles out to sea when the wind is strong westerly. What's the possibility of being caught in a strong downdraught when only 3 miles from Sumburgh Head?
Yes, it's all too far-fetched, but I want our passengers to appreciate that there are other possibilities than aircraft failure.
Some 10 years ago a helicopter was returning to Shetland from the Basin and was flying inside cloud. Suddenly it swung violently, so much so that the pilots thought they had lost drive to the tail rotor. Immediately they entered autorotation and commenced the drills for a power-off ditching.
Shortly their descent brought them out of cloud and the handling pilot began to feel that he still had control of the tail rotor with his pedals. Very fortunately they had not yet shut down the engines, as required in a tail rotor drive failure and gingerly pulled out of the descent until they found themselves back in normal flight.
The aircraft landed safely back at base and was eventually given a complete overhaul and replacement of any components which might have been overstressed. The investigation concluded that a waterspout was to blame.
The weather last Fiday wasn't of the kind where I might expect waterspouts. The wind was quite strong from about 140 degrees, so at 2 miles on final approach to 09, they were 3 miles downwind of Sumburgh Head and probably descending a few hundred feet above the surface.
We have all experienced the effect of the Grampian mountains giving strong up and down air currents, even beyond 80 miles out to sea when the wind is strong westerly. What's the possibility of being caught in a strong downdraught when only 3 miles from Sumburgh Head?
Yes, it's all too far-fetched, but I want our passengers to appreciate that there are other possibilities than aircraft failure.
Last edited by Colibri49; 29th Aug 2013 at 10:35.
P2K4, assuming you mean the offshore landing, this is conducted at night using the automation until a very late stage, 200' above deck height when the final "sight picture" approach is commenced, or even later. It is still a visual approach, its just that one is driving via the IAS, ALT, VS, HDG trims as opposed to the pole. This results in a much more stable flight path, much less stress for the pax, and much safer as I think any Bristow 225 driver will agree. Not sure of the policy of the other operators.
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Helicopter Accidents - Helicopter Database
This database shows 44 accidents on the Puma family in 30ish years. In fact the frequency has been consistent and contrary to popular belief the Norwegians have been effected by gravity as well!
The bears are angry as they have been subjected to a bizarre random phenonmena of 4 accidents in the uk in short time frame, to which they want an answer which will not be found.
It's still more dangerous to drive to the heliport then to fly offshore!
This database shows 44 accidents on the Puma family in 30ish years. In fact the frequency has been consistent and contrary to popular belief the Norwegians have been effected by gravity as well!
The bears are angry as they have been subjected to a bizarre random phenonmena of 4 accidents in the uk in short time frame, to which they want an answer which will not be found.
It's still more dangerous to drive to the heliport then to fly offshore!
HC
Thanks for the reply. I can understand the company requiring the use of the "safer" autopilot approach it protects them should a pilot make a manual approach and have a problem.
I am, however, still concerned that helicopter flying is becoming too like fixed wing where there seems to be a disconnect between managing a computer environment and the outside world.
Things do go wrong - the Air France Atlantic crash being an example. The handling pilot had circa 3000hrs, if you take off say 600hrs for hands on training and he does 15hr trips Paris/Brazil where he is handling pilot then he gets 80 trips of which he may get 10mins manual flying/trip about 14hrs. No wonder he didn't use power/attitude/trim to stabilise the a/c he just pulled back on the side stick with tragic consequences.There have been too many autopilot influenced crashes which were totally avoidable, I don't want that to creep into the NS environment.
Don't misunderstand me I am a great fan of using the modes in bad weather. I remember well doing single pilot night shuttles with cloud base near minimums and having my track on radar so I could position at 1500ft long finals to the rig and engage either speed or rate of descent along with the heading bug and motor down my approach track monitoring rather than flying - at the bottom aids off land on manually-no problem. I could, however, do it all manually if our pimitive coupling threw a wobbly.
HF
Thanks for the reply. I can understand the company requiring the use of the "safer" autopilot approach it protects them should a pilot make a manual approach and have a problem.
I am, however, still concerned that helicopter flying is becoming too like fixed wing where there seems to be a disconnect between managing a computer environment and the outside world.
Things do go wrong - the Air France Atlantic crash being an example. The handling pilot had circa 3000hrs, if you take off say 600hrs for hands on training and he does 15hr trips Paris/Brazil where he is handling pilot then he gets 80 trips of which he may get 10mins manual flying/trip about 14hrs. No wonder he didn't use power/attitude/trim to stabilise the a/c he just pulled back on the side stick with tragic consequences.There have been too many autopilot influenced crashes which were totally avoidable, I don't want that to creep into the NS environment.
Don't misunderstand me I am a great fan of using the modes in bad weather. I remember well doing single pilot night shuttles with cloud base near minimums and having my track on radar so I could position at 1500ft long finals to the rig and engage either speed or rate of descent along with the heading bug and motor down my approach track monitoring rather than flying - at the bottom aids off land on manually-no problem. I could, however, do it all manually if our pimitive coupling threw a wobbly.
HF
Last edited by Hummingfrog; 28th Aug 2013 at 11:22.
I could, however, do it all manually if our pimitive coupling threw a wobbly.
HF - but that's the point. On the 225, the coupling isn't primative, doesn't throw a wobbly and so those skills you cherish are less important. Certainly not worth exposing the passengers to increased risk. If we need to improve our manual flying skills in bad weather, it should be done in the Sim.
FW suffers from rules requiring use of automation regardless of weather, up to say FL100, have such things as auto-land and in general fly manually far less than we do. At least we retain the skills of hovering and flying the first / last bits of every takeoff/landing so whilst automation dependancy and loss of flying skills may be an issue, I don't thinks its as significant a one as faced by FW.
FW suffers from rules requiring use of automation regardless of weather, up to say FL100, have such things as auto-land and in general fly manually far less than we do. At least we retain the skills of hovering and flying the first / last bits of every takeoff/landing so whilst automation dependancy and loss of flying skills may be an issue, I don't thinks its as significant a one as faced by FW.
Last edited by HeliComparator; 28th Aug 2013 at 11:48.
AB - I have just received a PM correcting me on a couple of points, one is that manual practice of approaches is disallowed only when the weather is close to minima, so nothing wrong with practicing manual approaches by day or night in reasonable weather. I was getting a bit carried away! By the way, this only applies to the Bristow EC225 - I don't know what other's policy is.
The fact is that the automation is so much better than the pilots, that most people elect to use it anyway, and therefore have more time for the "big picture" aka situational awareness.
Another correction is that the co-pilot development which used to be a routine feature for many years until recently, did have a go at restarting but unfortunately it transpires that the pilots are currently too busy to be spared for it. That is BAD BAD BAD and we need to up our game! I for one found it most beneficial when I was a baby copilot (seems like only last week!). So yes, we are now running the risk of a new generation of can't-fly pilots. Shame on us!
The fact is that the automation is so much better than the pilots, that most people elect to use it anyway, and therefore have more time for the "big picture" aka situational awareness.
Another correction is that the co-pilot development which used to be a routine feature for many years until recently, did have a go at restarting but unfortunately it transpires that the pilots are currently too busy to be spared for it. That is BAD BAD BAD and we need to up our game! I for one found it most beneficial when I was a baby copilot (seems like only last week!). So yes, we are now running the risk of a new generation of can't-fly pilots. Shame on us!
Last edited by HeliComparator; 28th Aug 2013 at 12:08.
HC
I think I have made my concerns known and of course I haven't used the new generation of autopilots.
I am not advocating manual flying in bad weather just the ability to practice on those nice sunny days we get.
What I hear is now second hand but if on one particular a/c type it is SOP to engage autopilot at Vy then a chance to manually fly to cruise height and level off has been lost for no apparent safety reason.
I will end the debate now and wish everybody the best and hope the SP family of a/c is back flying soon. The 332L was fun to fly but not as much as the 365N2
HF
I think I have made my concerns known and of course I haven't used the new generation of autopilots.
I am not advocating manual flying in bad weather just the ability to practice on those nice sunny days we get.
What I hear is now second hand but if on one particular a/c type it is SOP to engage autopilot at Vy then a chance to manually fly to cruise height and level off has been lost for no apparent safety reason.
I will end the debate now and wish everybody the best and hope the SP family of a/c is back flying soon. The 332L was fun to fly but not as much as the 365N2
HF