Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread

Old 24th Nov 2014, 17:42
  #1261 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Cornwall
Age: 72
Posts: 325
Lee-on-Solent has worked without a ATC let down for the last 25 years
TipCap is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2014, 19:56
  #1262 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
P3 Bellows


It wasn't a point for debate, merely a statement of fact.
The SAR RC is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2014, 21:13
  #1263 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Bidders were required to nominate locations in the vicinity of current SAR flights such as Wattisham but alternative locations were acceptable to the DfT if bidders could demonstrate no overall increase in average response times to incidents throughout the UK.


Bidders had to reach all very high and high risk areas and 75% of the medium risk areas (as defined by the UK SAR Region risk profile map) within 60 minutes of take-off. The DfT used a complex 'Vicinity Tool' to verify evidence for alternate locations.


One has to assume that by moving from Manston to Lydd, Bristow are still able to achieve this, otherwise they would be in breach of the tender requirements.
The SAR RC is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 06:02
  #1264 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,450
And that '60 min after take-off' was where the fudge that allowed a 10-base solution came in.

The criteria should have been 60 min after being scrambled which would have been much more realistic and acceptable.

We always aimed to be airborne inside the RS (15 0800 to 2200 and 45 2200 to 0800) but those Dft figures allow up to 45 mins after scramble and then 60 mins airborne (at 140 to 150 kts) which means that in some areas, the casualties will be waiting for a long, long time before they get their helo.

When everyone saw the 60 minute criteria, they all assumed it was 60 mins from call to arrival and that allowed the 'fudge' to be accepted.

Sadly, members of the RAF helped do this to ourselves = lies, damn lies and statistics.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 07:01
  #1265 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
Vicinity model or no vicinity model, a six year old child could look at the map of the new SAR locations and tell you it was seriously imbalanced. Where once the North Sea coast was covered by the likes of Manston, Coltishall, Leconfield, Leuchars and Boulmer, according to the vicinity model these lighting quick new aircraft can now cover the whole lot from Humberside. Do be serious DfT.
Vie sans frontieres is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 08:52
  #1266 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
To be fair Vie, that six year old probably hasn't looked at the risk level map. This is the first entirely planned such service and the DASA stats for current east coast bases tell their own story. However, I accept Crab's analysis of the timing fudge and a 150 knot aircraft doesn't do 150 when hover taxiing through the snow. Lydd does seem like a step too far.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 09:00
  #1267 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: France
Age: 74
Posts: 119
Has Lydd been named, apart from on here as the alternative? Southend would not be out of the frame, though I can see that to have one on the Dover narrows isn't a bad idea.
Sevarg is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 09:14
  #1268 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: UK
Age: 48
Posts: 10
The basing solution is indeed starting to look very sketchy for the east coast.

As a wider issue, however, I would suggest that the basing solution has always been a complete fudge. I think that the concept of using historical job data was a flawed concept from the start. Helicopter SAR bases will always create their own little hot spots in the local area. Who else remembers Leuchars closing as a SAR Flight? There was much grinding of teeth about 'who will do all those jobs in the Firth of Forth now as Lossie, Boulmer and Prestwick will take too long to get there?'. Well, how many jobs get done by helicopters in the Firth of Forth nowadays in comparison to when Leuchars was there? Not many.

I raised this with the female civil servant who was running the SARH competition (I can't recall her name nowadays) and she was unwilling or unable to grasp the point; the concept of using historical data was clearly ingrained in the process.

The opportunity to start with a fresh sheet of paper and create an innovative and effective basing solution was lost many years ago, and the birds are now coming home to roost on this issue.
Pol Potty mouth is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 11:05
  #1269 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
The Leuchars point makes some sense but beyond that the whole east coast picture is substantially different from the west and the MoD-DASA stats show this quite clearly. Add to this the greater extent of SRR westward and workload differences and the greater number of S-92 on the west is explained. Lossie bucks the trend but if there had been NVIS a/c on a contract with proper land SAR requirements at Stornoway and Sumburgh then Lossie would probably fit the pattern too.


Lochaber and Lakes hotspots are real and significantly distant from bases. Presumably, we will see if self-generated hotspots really exist when Portland shuts.

Last edited by jimf671; 25th Nov 2014 at 15:06.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 12:54
  #1270 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 364
Is Manston really no longer an option? Lee is shut as a commercial airfield but still operates the SAR (and other flying machines). Portland is similar. Surely all Bristow need is the hangar and office space they were planning on building anyway, a fuel supply and a piece of tarmac. Is that not still possible in the future Manston housing estate plan (apart of course from the NIMBYs who will move in and then complain about the noise!)

Perhaps if it does move to Lydd then Lee could shut and keep Portland...
Spanish Waltzer is offline  
Old 25th Nov 2014, 15:13
  #1271 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Inverness-shire, Ross-shire
Posts: 1,207
Bristow require security at MAIN contract bases that was not required as a result of requirements of previous contracts. Secure airside locations are likely to make this easier than some more relaxed sites.
jimf671 is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2014, 18:35
  #1272 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: EGPB/EGPD
Posts: 133
AW189 now carrying a British reg:



shetlander is offline  
Old 26th Nov 2014, 20:42
  #1273 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: England
Age: 53
Posts: 101
East coast SAR provision was a result of the Cold War requirement to cover the North Sea. Another example of a SAR unit hotspot moving occurred when the Manston flight moved to Wattisham.
Clever Richard is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2014, 09:06
  #1274 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Among these dark Satanic mills
Posts: 1,175
Another example of a SAR unit hotspot moving occurred when the Manston flight moved to Wattisham.
Perhaps the first time that 'Wattisham' and 'SAR hotspot' have featured in the same sentence...
TorqueOfTheDevil is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2014, 18:07
  #1275 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Escaped from ABZ...
Posts: 286
Do remember that whilst Wattisham is one of the quieter units, it is the centre of HAS winching excellence!

Last edited by detgnome; 27th Nov 2014 at 23:38. Reason: pesky autocorrect
detgnome is offline  
Old 27th Nov 2014, 21:41
  #1276 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,450
Yes, lots of wincing goes on at Wattisham
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2014, 13:12
  #1277 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Monde
Posts: 368
East coast SAR provision was a result of the Cold War requirement to cover the North Sea
That may be the case and it could be argued that those flights I listed before were a touch of overkill. However, what they did provide was back-up for each other to provide full and continuous SAR coverage for an infamous sea that has seen countless people rescued from its unforgiving waters over the years.

What happens when Humberside go u/s in the new plan? Let's look at a couple of standard North Sea jobs - assume 15 minutes to be scrambled and get airborne on top of what's calculated below and also assume 140 kts airspeed and still wind.

Fishing boat taking on water at Dogger Bank N55 00 00 E003 00 00

Humberside would take 1 hour 5 mins to get there. But they're u/s, so who else have we got?

Lydd - 1 hour 49, Prestwick 1 hour 52, Inverness 2 hours - assuming they can fly in a straight line. Those are not great response times.

How about Man Overboard from a Rig Support Vessel? N57 00 00 E001 30 00 - same conditions as before.

Humberside would take 1 hour 19 to get there, but they're u/s. That leaves Prestwick 1 hour 36 and Inverness 1 hour 35 - again, if they can get there in a straight line. Before you ask, Boulmer would, at 115kts, be there in 1 hour 12.

Now let's look at the English Channel. A boat has hit the rocks off Alderney - that's about as far away as I could plot a position before it was in French territory.

Same conditions as above - 140kts, still air.

Lee-on-Solent would be there in 33 minutes, but they're u/s. So who else can help?

St. Athan would take 48 minutes, Newquay 50 minutes and Lydd 1 hour 01. Compare these times to the North Sea times above.

It took me about half an hour to do that maths. How come the DfT haven't figured out that there's a gigantic imbalance in the planned SAR coverage in the UK? They need to do something about it before it's too late. The North Sea does not give second chances.
Vie sans frontieres is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2014, 13:34
  #1278 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 364
Maybe DfT were assuming that son of JIGSAW could take up some of the North Sea tasking...
Spanish Waltzer is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2014, 15:58
  #1279 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,229
That might be the case.

there are a significant number of people involved in offshore oil and wind on the east coast and the only government provision is this one.

Add in the North Sea ferries and commercial shipping and there is a sizeable population who may need to odd bit of help.
gasax is offline  
Old 28th Nov 2014, 23:15
  #1280 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Somewhere
Age: 45
Posts: 133
But has BP not decided to canx Jigsaw from 2016?

😣
pumaboy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.