UK SAR 2013 privatisation: the new thread
seniortrooper,
I'm not naive enough to believe that the MOD is particularly interested in the individual
needs of the SAR fraternity and yes, you are right, managed transition is primarily for the benefit of military manning. I just wanted to put the brakes on a panic-fest until all the facts are out in the open. I still believe that Bristow will have to recruit an element of locally experienced military guys to make the whole thing work. How many is 'the elephant in the room' as you aptly put it.
I'm not naive enough to believe that the MOD is particularly interested in the individual
needs of the SAR fraternity and yes, you are right, managed transition is primarily for the benefit of military manning. I just wanted to put the brakes on a panic-fest until all the facts are out in the open. I still believe that Bristow will have to recruit an element of locally experienced military guys to make the whole thing work. How many is 'the elephant in the room' as you aptly put it.
Tightgit
OPC (to CAA standards ie external!), LPC (to company standards ie as per the RAF SARF!), simulator rides etc.
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I couldn't agree more with what Seniortrooper has written.
It seems clear to me that Bristow have a requirement for experienced, reliable and safe rearcrew; 'managed transition' will work well for ensuring the provision of winch-ops and winchmen. However, it's a different kettle of fish for the front-enders. The requirements for captains, not least 250hrs oil and gas, mean that few, if any, mil pilots could feasibly get through the requisite trg in time to find a captain's seat on a shiny new S92 or AW189. Remember that under 'managed transition' the RN/RAF will be retaining them until the vinegar strokes of mil SAR. (A complete cynic might suggest that Bristow's motivation for setting down some of these requirements might be seen here!) A few ex-mil pilots might get into a co-pilot's seat but that will be about that. And after all, given that they are only advertising for 50 capts and 50 co-pilots, the market is relatively awash with available pilots, many type-qualified, who might feasibly be able to describe themselves as 'SAR-qualified'*.
The roadshow that will visit the SAR flights is all about Bristow AFAIK, but I bet SARF, Cdr SK and Manning are all praying that it all sounds convincing, else the much-feared race to PVR will start soon after! Certainly for the pilots anyway.
* not necessarily SAR-current and probably have only thought about SAR as a 'secondary role' with 'Andrew', but from Bristow's perpective they are close enough to being SAR pilots I guess.
It seems clear to me that Bristow have a requirement for experienced, reliable and safe rearcrew; 'managed transition' will work well for ensuring the provision of winch-ops and winchmen. However, it's a different kettle of fish for the front-enders. The requirements for captains, not least 250hrs oil and gas, mean that few, if any, mil pilots could feasibly get through the requisite trg in time to find a captain's seat on a shiny new S92 or AW189. Remember that under 'managed transition' the RN/RAF will be retaining them until the vinegar strokes of mil SAR. (A complete cynic might suggest that Bristow's motivation for setting down some of these requirements might be seen here!) A few ex-mil pilots might get into a co-pilot's seat but that will be about that. And after all, given that they are only advertising for 50 capts and 50 co-pilots, the market is relatively awash with available pilots, many type-qualified, who might feasibly be able to describe themselves as 'SAR-qualified'*.
The roadshow that will visit the SAR flights is all about Bristow AFAIK, but I bet SARF, Cdr SK and Manning are all praying that it all sounds convincing, else the much-feared race to PVR will start soon after! Certainly for the pilots anyway.
* not necessarily SAR-current and probably have only thought about SAR as a 'secondary role' with 'Andrew', but from Bristow's perpective they are close enough to being SAR pilots I guess.
Llamaman
I hear you, and see your point of view. As for me, tours at 4 of the 6 RAF SAR flights, plus time in NI.
Managed trandition is a myth. I know what I am talking about. Apply to Bristow and see for yourself.
How blunt can I be?!! I must have said 5 x, ask Bristow! Crap scaremongering, asking guys to get the facts ffs!!!
Perhaps rsality is too unpleasant for some. Bristow are recruiting NOW, and when they are full, they are full. Fact.
The RAF created MT to stop people leaving. Fact
As the yanks say...'you do the math'.
I hear you, and see your point of view. As for me, tours at 4 of the 6 RAF SAR flights, plus time in NI.
Managed trandition is a myth. I know what I am talking about. Apply to Bristow and see for yourself.
How blunt can I be?!! I must have said 5 x, ask Bristow! Crap scaremongering, asking guys to get the facts ffs!!!
Perhaps rsality is too unpleasant for some. Bristow are recruiting NOW, and when they are full, they are full. Fact.
The RAF created MT to stop people leaving. Fact
As the yanks say...'you do the math'.
Baldeep,
A rather fraught and error-strewn rant, a couple of drinks maybe? My aim was to try and offer a slightly more balanced view and not create panic amongst what is already a somewhat worried group of aviators. As for me, application to Bristow is not an option I'm afraid so I have no axe to grind, just an interested observer. What somebody at Bristow may have told you might not apply to all and may only be loosely based on fact.
A rather fraught and error-strewn rant, a couple of drinks maybe? My aim was to try and offer a slightly more balanced view and not create panic amongst what is already a somewhat worried group of aviators. As for me, application to Bristow is not an option I'm afraid so I have no axe to grind, just an interested observer. What somebody at Bristow may have told you might not apply to all and may only be loosely based on fact.
Last edited by llamaman; 4th Apr 2013 at 20:39.
No drinks, just a phone with a tiny screen that only shows half of what I have written. Still, your dig at my grammar shows the level of serious rebuttal that you have at your disposal. The uncomfortable truth hurts, I get that.
You have singularly failed to address the points I have raised. Why would you assume I 'have been told' something by Bristow? Every post I have made has been written to HELP RAF guys get jobs.
It could be that I am no longer in the RAF, and in a position to KNOW. That said, the arrogance and complacency of those in the SAR force saddens me. If you believe that MT will work, then crack on. I wish you well. The SAR force are professional, and very good at their jobs. They are also mistaken in their belief that nobody else can do it, apart from them. SAR crews rescue people all over the world, doing it 'their way'. It might be different, but it isn't wrong. The ridiculously inflated heirarchy of the SAR force (A sqn in size, no more) has created an idea that does not meet reality. Ancient aircraft, off state and ops only on a regular basis, rearcrew working shifts left, right and chelsea in order to keep the whole house of cards from collapsing...what part can civvies not do better?!
The elephant in the room, by the way, is rearcrew. Without them, SAR dies. The job of the pilot is to put the winchop in a position where he can put the winchman where he wants to be. And rearcrew are at crisis level. They are the ones to worry about.
I will leave the forum now, and not return. I believe those in the RAF will get what they deserve. If you believe in MT, then go for it. I used to believe in the tooth fairy.
You have singularly failed to address the points I have raised. Why would you assume I 'have been told' something by Bristow? Every post I have made has been written to HELP RAF guys get jobs.
It could be that I am no longer in the RAF, and in a position to KNOW. That said, the arrogance and complacency of those in the SAR force saddens me. If you believe that MT will work, then crack on. I wish you well. The SAR force are professional, and very good at their jobs. They are also mistaken in their belief that nobody else can do it, apart from them. SAR crews rescue people all over the world, doing it 'their way'. It might be different, but it isn't wrong. The ridiculously inflated heirarchy of the SAR force (A sqn in size, no more) has created an idea that does not meet reality. Ancient aircraft, off state and ops only on a regular basis, rearcrew working shifts left, right and chelsea in order to keep the whole house of cards from collapsing...what part can civvies not do better?!
The elephant in the room, by the way, is rearcrew. Without them, SAR dies. The job of the pilot is to put the winchop in a position where he can put the winchman where he wants to be. And rearcrew are at crisis level. They are the ones to worry about.
I will leave the forum now, and not return. I believe those in the RAF will get what they deserve. If you believe in MT, then go for it. I used to believe in the tooth fairy.
Last edited by Baldeep Inminj; 4th Apr 2013 at 21:07.
Baldeep,
Like I said, I'm not intending to apply therefore you're 'bet you never work with me though' statement is not applicable and somewhat juvenille. Likewise your accusation of arrogance and complacency within the SAR force is a little strong and I'd be interested to hear your evidence to back that up.
The bottom line is that this is a turbulent and stressful time for all those who are considering a military to civilian transition and I wish them the best of luck. It's not the time for panic-inducing rhetoric from 'experts' on PPRune, some hard facts from those in a position to actually implement any changes will be more useful. Let people hear the spiel from the recruitment road-shows then make up their own minds. Anyone who hits the PVR button tomorrow based on your advice would be jumping the gun somewhat.
Like I said, I'm not intending to apply therefore you're 'bet you never work with me though' statement is not applicable and somewhat juvenille. Likewise your accusation of arrogance and complacency within the SAR force is a little strong and I'd be interested to hear your evidence to back that up.
The bottom line is that this is a turbulent and stressful time for all those who are considering a military to civilian transition and I wish them the best of luck. It's not the time for panic-inducing rhetoric from 'experts' on PPRune, some hard facts from those in a position to actually implement any changes will be more useful. Let people hear the spiel from the recruitment road-shows then make up their own minds. Anyone who hits the PVR button tomorrow based on your advice would be jumping the gun somewhat.
6 months not 9
Al-bert,
Fear not, the OCU is not planned to take 9 months, only 6. This may still seem a lot but things have changed a great deal since your day. The front line requirement is now for a new crew member to arrive with an LCR cat and the training to achieve this was increased to include exercises that used to form part of Sqn acceptance. Couple this with a full procedural course for pilots and medical exercises for rear crew as well as work with external agencies and you easily get to 6 months. The upside is that the front line receive a product pretty much ready for duty on day 1. If a course over-runs, as has been known, it is usually down to a lack of assets, aircraft and personnel, which are used to bolster the 2 Sqns, and the difficulty in maintaining an aging fleet with a limited supply chain.
I will agree that the SAR Force is a much bigger affair than the good old SAR Wing that we knew and loved, but that is the price of progress and it has at least allowed some of our brighter guys to get noticed without having to move to the SH Force.
On a slightly different topic and hoping for some reasoned debate, can anyone flying S92/AW 139 etc explain why it could take 250 hours or more to get used to a glass cockpit? My understanding was that modern helicopters were more user friendly and MFDs made life easier, so why so long to adapt?
Fear not, the OCU is not planned to take 9 months, only 6. This may still seem a lot but things have changed a great deal since your day. The front line requirement is now for a new crew member to arrive with an LCR cat and the training to achieve this was increased to include exercises that used to form part of Sqn acceptance. Couple this with a full procedural course for pilots and medical exercises for rear crew as well as work with external agencies and you easily get to 6 months. The upside is that the front line receive a product pretty much ready for duty on day 1. If a course over-runs, as has been known, it is usually down to a lack of assets, aircraft and personnel, which are used to bolster the 2 Sqns, and the difficulty in maintaining an aging fleet with a limited supply chain.
I will agree that the SAR Force is a much bigger affair than the good old SAR Wing that we knew and loved, but that is the price of progress and it has at least allowed some of our brighter guys to get noticed without having to move to the SH Force.
On a slightly different topic and hoping for some reasoned debate, can anyone flying S92/AW 139 etc explain why it could take 250 hours or more to get used to a glass cockpit? My understanding was that modern helicopters were more user friendly and MFDs made life easier, so why so long to adapt?
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On a slightly different topic and hoping for some reasoned debate, can anyone flying S92/AW 139 etc explain why it could take 250 hours or more to get used to a glass cockpit? My understanding was that modern helicopters were more user friendly and MFDs made life easier, so why so long to adapt?
I will agree that the SAR Force is a much bigger affair than the good old SAR Wing that we knew and loved, but that is the price of progress and it has at least allowed some of our brighter guys to get noticed without having to move to the SH Force
Crews always did come out of SKTU with a LCR CAT after 3 1/2 months (in my day). I was on shift as a co-pilot two days after my arrival at Brawdy. As far as working with outside agencies goes, my local lifeboat is lucky if they see a helicopter more than once a year, compared with once a month at least in the past.
As I'm sure you are aware, SAR Wing was commanded by one Wg Cdr. There were two Sqns commanded by two Sqn Ldrs and a total of nine flights. Any reasonable 'bright guy' would have perhaps suggested that one Sqn of six flights was perfectly feasible; up the rank to Sqn Ldr Flight Commanders and make the boss a WgCo if you must. The only real improvements which occured during my time on SAR was the paramedic qual for winchmen and the adoption of NVG's. Procedural IR's were a complete waste of time and money and were instigated by other bright guys with eyes on civil licences.
Sadly the IR doesn't appear to count outside!
Last edited by Al-bert; 4th Apr 2013 at 22:19.
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Sadly the IR doesn't appear to count outside!
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Come to think of it, why do RAF SAR need procedural IR's (even one's which aren't recognised by EASA!)?
Are ther any SAR missions requiring recovery to hospitals via airways and holds?
The amount of credence they attach to their Procedural tickets is disturbing if they don't get used in anger.
Surely it isn't a pre-requisite for the job, because the RN don't use them and have never found the need to introuduce them over the decades of doing SAR.
Anyone?
Are ther any SAR missions requiring recovery to hospitals via airways and holds?
The amount of credence they attach to their Procedural tickets is disturbing if they don't get used in anger.
Surely it isn't a pre-requisite for the job, because the RN don't use them and have never found the need to introuduce them over the decades of doing SAR.
Anyone?
You'd still have to pass an IR on any new aircraft in any case
seniortrooper - I refer you to my previous post ie
and I was a flight IRE 
Procedural IR's were a complete waste of time and money and were instigated by other bright guys with eyes on civil licences
Last edited by Al-bert; 4th Apr 2013 at 22:36. Reason: typo
It can take that long to have seen most of the more important warning captions.....
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We did discover that the Helikopter Services Puma Sim would only allow seven failures at once. Staff training sorties only though, done mainly for amusement of the QHI in the back pressing the buttons. Aka: "stitch your mate" time. Now, enough of this thread drift! 
... There will be a whole raft of key performance indicators (KPIs) that will indicate the success or otherwise of the contractors solution and I'm sure JimF could find them online. ...
This Schedule 8.2 (Contract Incentive Scheme (KPIs)) is aimed at supporting the development of Service Level Categories that can be effectively measured to provide an evidence base supporting the quality of service provided by the Contractor. The Department is primarily concerned with receiving good service. However the Department does not wish to pay for a contracted level of service that is not being delivered and an appropriate Service Credit regime is required to incentivise and support service delivery. The Service Level and Service Credit regime must be a means to achieve these objectives and not an end itself.
[The contractor proposes the format of a range of KPI based on the following Service Level Categories. These are in addition to Mandated KPI for Availability and Responsiveness.]
SERVICE LEVEL CATEGORIES
Transition In
- Infrastructure
- Information Communications Technology
- Personnel
- Regulatory
- Airframes
Steady State Service
- Response
- Service Availability
- Service Resilience
- Infrastructure
- Information Communications Technology
Transition Out
- Infrastructure
- Personnel
- Information/Data transfer
AVAILABILITY
For each Base, a monthly activity report twithin five Working Days of the end of each Month.
Below 98%: charges. Greater than 24 hrs: investigation.
Availability is partial in the following circumstances.
Lacking a Crew member or any one of the following items of equipment on the Aircraft is unserviceable:
(i) autohover;
(ii) FLIR;
(iii) search radar;
(iv) long range communications; or
(v) one of the hoists (but the other hoist is still serviceable),
RESPONSIVENESS
For each Base, a consolidated mission report within five ... ... . Includes percentage of missions airborne within 15 / 45 minutes of alert.
Below 85%: charges. Below 65%: investigation.
[OK snake, where do I send the invoice?]
I have lost count of the jobs where procedural IF - esp ILS was the only way to either get home or get the casualty to hospital.
ISTR the SH force, esp Chinook and Merlin have been doing procedural IF for many many years and I don't think that was about licences - more about professional capability and being allowed into big boys airspace where PARs don't exist.
The RN never had the kit fitted to their Sea Kings hence no Procedural IR - however, I believe Culdrose is finally having an ILS installed.
There will be a few people who will miss the Chivenor ILS/DME when the flight closes and the kit is moved elsewhere (police, AA, AW etc)
ISTR the SH force, esp Chinook and Merlin have been doing procedural IF for many many years and I don't think that was about licences - more about professional capability and being allowed into big boys airspace where PARs don't exist.
The RN never had the kit fitted to their Sea Kings hence no Procedural IR - however, I believe Culdrose is finally having an ILS installed.
There will be a few people who will miss the Chivenor ILS/DME when the flight closes and the kit is moved elsewhere (police, AA, AW etc)