Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
Georgina Hunter-Jones just made a good point on Sky
These things are always precluded by the presumption that regulations weren't tight enough or something needs to be banned but all considerations need to be considered by AAIB/CAA - including things like would the option to land somewhere else be safer (e.g. a park in London - which is currently prohibited).
Nevertheless it is very unfortunate that something so tragic has happened to such an experienced pilot.
These things are always precluded by the presumption that regulations weren't tight enough or something needs to be banned but all considerations need to be considered by AAIB/CAA - including things like would the option to land somewhere else be safer (e.g. a park in London - which is currently prohibited).
Nevertheless it is very unfortunate that something so tragic has happened to such an experienced pilot.
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Grenville,
I think responsibility for identifying a qualifying sources for the media, actually rests with the media. For example, I do in part agree with you, however as the "Spokesperson" in an incident such as today, you as a responsible aviation professional would decline to comment until facts are established.. Like the AAIB do. That would not satisfy media demand for immediate sensational news, and comment to fill broadcasts, so muppets like Ferguson will always get airtime.
Catch 22 sadly.
I think responsibility for identifying a qualifying sources for the media, actually rests with the media. For example, I do in part agree with you, however as the "Spokesperson" in an incident such as today, you as a responsible aviation professional would decline to comment until facts are established.. Like the AAIB do. That would not satisfy media demand for immediate sensational news, and comment to fill broadcasts, so muppets like Ferguson will always get airtime.
Catch 22 sadly.
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Dont normally post here but the biased sensationalist TV coverage of this tragedy by organisations that use helicopters has driven me to comment.
I too have also complained to the BBC about Mr Ferguson's comments.
There are so many knowledgeable real industry experts that the BBC could have drawn on, why not use them?
I too have also complained to the BBC about Mr Ferguson's comments.
There are so many knowledgeable real industry experts that the BBC could have drawn on, why not use them?
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I am a low hour fixed-wing (private) pilot and have never flown a helicopter or in the London LFA....however if you are flying (a helicopter) in the London CTR and are unable to maintain sight of the surface or the required 1,000m in-flight visibility, would the correct course of action be to immediately declare an emergency and climb to a safe altitude (MSA albeit in IMC)? Or if you were in sight of the surface (and presumably a suitable landing location), would you not try to put it down - even landing on the water if necessary?
Looking at the television footage the ceiling (at the location of the crane at least) looks about 400-500ft (not the 600ft required for helicopters inbound to LGLW) - of course I realize things can happen very quickly and hind-sight is 20-20!
Looking at the television footage the ceiling (at the location of the crane at least) looks about 400-500ft (not the 600ft required for helicopters inbound to LGLW) - of course I realize things can happen very quickly and hind-sight is 20-20!
Last edited by awqward; 16th Jan 2013 at 14:37.
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..however if you are flying (a helicopter) in the London CTR and are unable to maintain sight of the surface or the required 1,000m in-flight visibility, would the correct course of action be to immediately declare an emergency and climb to a safe altitude (MSA albeit in IMC)?
Or if you were in sight of the surface (and presumably a suitable landing location), would you not try to put it down - even landing on the water if necessary?
Re obstruction lighting, it seems the accident occured around 0800, which would be about the time for 'official day' so its possible the obstruction lights were only recently turned off (assuming they were serviceable and only lit at night).
I'd like to think that in poor daylight weather there'd be a procedure to have these lights illuminated, and at what definition is used for 'night'.
I'd like to think that in poor daylight weather there'd be a procedure to have these lights illuminated, and at what definition is used for 'night'.
Chopperchappie.....my comment was directed at an American EMS pilot who complained about the numbers of NOTAMs he had to read at the start of each shift when he began work at his US Based EMS base.
Don't try to apply that exchange to the UK or this morning's tragedy please.
Don't try to apply that exchange to the UK or this morning's tragedy please.
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Please use this dedicated thread to record any condolence messages or tributes to Pete Barnes.
Thank you in advance.
Thank you in advance.
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Not sure what kind of lighting the crane had but there is no substitute for a good white strobe like the Canary Wharf building has albeit on a smaller scale.
Once all the sensationalism and waste of time eye-witness reports quieten down then the AAIB will quietly get on and draw their conclusions in the months ahead. They do an excellent job in very difficult circumstances.
From all accounts this crane was an accident waiting to happen given its proximity to the heliport and the nearby river.
As professionals within this industry I think we know which way this will go and common sense will prevail but sadly too late for Pete.
Once all the sensationalism and waste of time eye-witness reports quieten down then the AAIB will quietly get on and draw their conclusions in the months ahead. They do an excellent job in very difficult circumstances.
From all accounts this crane was an accident waiting to happen given its proximity to the heliport and the nearby river.
As professionals within this industry I think we know which way this will go and common sense will prevail but sadly too late for Pete.
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John R81 posted
I believe he said he did not know if that particular aircraft had a black box
THe H4 routes along the river so why is that inappropriate? I know that as a twin the route was not compulsory, but with this morning's cloudbase it might have been the only option.
Jim Ferguson "aviation expert" who did not know whether these aircraft have a black box. He also thought that the river was the appropriate route
THe H4 routes along the river so why is that inappropriate? I know that as a twin the route was not compulsory, but with this morning's cloudbase it might have been the only option.
Last edited by Lon More; 16th Jan 2013 at 15:35.
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Official Announcement by RotorMotion
RotorMotion can confirm the identity of the pilot who was killed in this morning's tragic accident in London.
Captain Peter Barnes, aged 50 from the Reading area, has been flying with RotorMotion since it was established over 15 yeas ago. He was a very highly skilled pilot, one of the most experienced in the UK, with over 12,000 flying hours.
We are devastated by the loss of a highly valued colleague and very dear friend.
Our thoughts and condolences are with Peter's wife and children.
Captain Philip Amadeus
Chief Pilot and Managing Director
RotorMotion
Captain Peter Barnes, aged 50 from the Reading area, has been flying with RotorMotion since it was established over 15 yeas ago. He was a very highly skilled pilot, one of the most experienced in the UK, with over 12,000 flying hours.
We are devastated by the loss of a highly valued colleague and very dear friend.
Our thoughts and condolences are with Peter's wife and children.
Captain Philip Amadeus
Chief Pilot and Managing Director
RotorMotion
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The support cables on the back of a crane that size would be at least 20mm steel cable. I dont see the helicopter "cutting them". That lattice structure on the other hand is only designed to take forces straight down. It would make more sense that he contacted the area on the black box on the photos.
In the US white lights are supposed to be used in rural areas on towers over 500' but red lights are used in urban areas due to "light pollution" concerns. Is it the same in the UK?
In the US white lights are supposed to be used in rural areas on towers over 500' but red lights are used in urban areas due to "light pollution" concerns. Is it the same in the UK?
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Lon More
I believe that he said that he did not know. I agree. Hopefully an "expert" would know that they do not.
The machine was not using the helirouts. Hopefully an "expert" (as some others did) would note that the Thames is a designated route for singles but as this was a twin they are not relevant. Anything else, you have the "expert" adding to confusion.
I believe that he said that he did not know. I agree. Hopefully an "expert" would know that they do not.
The machine was not using the helirouts. Hopefully an "expert" (as some others did) would note that the Thames is a designated route for singles but as this was a twin they are not relevant. Anything else, you have the "expert" adding to confusion.
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Apart from the 'obvious answer', could any experienced heli drivers tell me how they would route in a twin, Redhill-Elstree in those conditions? A23-A5?
Last edited by BOAC; 16th Jan 2013 at 16:45.
MSA not always an option.
Not always possible to climb to MSA or safe altitude because of icing levels. Not saying this is the case here but like most helicopters the 109 does not have an icing clearance and therefore staying VFR is the option if icing is likely to exist above.
Flying in this county during this time of year icing is often a consideration.
Flying in this county during this time of year icing is often a consideration.
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r44raven
Was that statement true? If so I know where my next email is headed having held off through their 'journalism' throughout the day.
I think an open letter from people (members of the industry and indeed this site) that actually know what they are doing/talking about needs to be sent to news outlets to stop sensationalist stories and comment being made. I have seen some experienced voice on the airwaves talking sense then being drowned by 'experts' - We all know who they are.
Its like driving on a motorway and passing an accident then all of a sudden because you drive or have experience peripheral of driving you are suddenly an accident investigation inspector. Too soon and not fair and doesn't make things any clearer for anyone let alone the persons affected desperately dealing with things and answers.
I am not a rotary operator however have operated jets in to the likes of swiss airfields that require total commitment, knowledge and awareness, all of the facets that Pete would have had. Something went wrong, tragically in this case and I think people who know and operate in this industry and know the man will realise. We are all bound by the nature of this business by rules, strict and enforced for a reason and I am not beyond being subjective I don't feel by stating that. I am not saying that anyone personally is beyond a mistake however this is for the AIB to determine based on what they discover through doing their job.
I dont think it is beyond the pale to suggest that journalists do their job either but deliver a balanced, INFORMED view on matters within their knowledge instead of sending wannabe's hurtling around Vauxhall questioning the risk of carbon fibre danger to the public. Look at their sources and the so called experts they employ, a majority of which are not respected amongst a very close knit, informed community with expertise in their everyday job.
All this reporting does is damage a well run, well regulated industry whom dont have an outlet to show the good and benefit they deliver through a platform such as channel number **** BUT most importantly it doesn't reflect the pain, loss and suffering to the families involved in this tragic accident and that has to be held paramount in this circumstance.
Whilst I have met Pete numerous times in one way or another and have his number I never had the opportunity to meet the family behind the man which I can only imagine were a testament to whom he was and for them I feel totally gutted and empty for.
Sky News, BBC and whomever manifests off these feeds now spare a thought for the 2 people that wont be walking through their front doors tonight to their family or the people visited in hospital. For the so called 'experts' put your feet up on another day of being as useful as the steam off my p1ss to the industry and the public tonight. You know who you are and the people that despise you.
I think an open letter from people (members of the industry and indeed this site) that actually know what they are doing/talking about needs to be sent to news outlets to stop sensationalist stories and comment being made. I have seen some experienced voice on the airwaves talking sense then being drowned by 'experts' - We all know who they are.
Its like driving on a motorway and passing an accident then all of a sudden because you drive or have experience peripheral of driving you are suddenly an accident investigation inspector. Too soon and not fair and doesn't make things any clearer for anyone let alone the persons affected desperately dealing with things and answers.
I am not a rotary operator however have operated jets in to the likes of swiss airfields that require total commitment, knowledge and awareness, all of the facets that Pete would have had. Something went wrong, tragically in this case and I think people who know and operate in this industry and know the man will realise. We are all bound by the nature of this business by rules, strict and enforced for a reason and I am not beyond being subjective I don't feel by stating that. I am not saying that anyone personally is beyond a mistake however this is for the AIB to determine based on what they discover through doing their job.
I dont think it is beyond the pale to suggest that journalists do their job either but deliver a balanced, INFORMED view on matters within their knowledge instead of sending wannabe's hurtling around Vauxhall questioning the risk of carbon fibre danger to the public. Look at their sources and the so called experts they employ, a majority of which are not respected amongst a very close knit, informed community with expertise in their everyday job.
All this reporting does is damage a well run, well regulated industry whom dont have an outlet to show the good and benefit they deliver through a platform such as channel number **** BUT most importantly it doesn't reflect the pain, loss and suffering to the families involved in this tragic accident and that has to be held paramount in this circumstance.
Whilst I have met Pete numerous times in one way or another and have his number I never had the opportunity to meet the family behind the man which I can only imagine were a testament to whom he was and for them I feel totally gutted and empty for.
Sky News, BBC and whomever manifests off these feeds now spare a thought for the 2 people that wont be walking through their front doors tonight to their family or the people visited in hospital. For the so called 'experts' put your feet up on another day of being as useful as the steam off my p1ss to the industry and the public tonight. You know who you are and the people that despise you.
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A sad day but don't let journalists get you worked up
The media and journalists will always say something for a story and there is nothing one can do to stop what is a sad fact of life. Some will be responsible and find someone who actually knows what they are talking about but anyone who does will say very little at this point and as it won't be "newsworthy" speculation, most journalists will be under time or other pressure to find someone who will say something. With twitter now routinely quoted as a news source (why?!) this will only ever get worse. I say this as someone who has been quoted in the media in my own day job and seen utter rubbish said by other supposed experts. As a non professional pilot with a helicopter, I have had several people ask me if I knew anything about this (why would I, just because I happen to have a helicopter?) and I have said in a measured way no but it's unfortunate and it would be good if people didn't rush to want to say something, resisting the temptation myself to make my own comments about vis or NOTAMS or twin engine IMC etc in case that is somehow taken as authoritative and passed on as "well a pilot said...".
So the point of what I'm saying is something tragic happened to someone who by all accounts was a good man, lots of people will publish stuff that will wind you up (I was pleased to see not a lot said here fell into that category (yet?)) and the best those who care can do is not rise! Having a professional spokesman for the industry might help a bit, but you can't force media looking for a sensational story to talk to someone who won't give them one.
So the point of what I'm saying is something tragic happened to someone who by all accounts was a good man, lots of people will publish stuff that will wind you up (I was pleased to see not a lot said here fell into that category (yet?)) and the best those who care can do is not rise! Having a professional spokesman for the industry might help a bit, but you can't force media looking for a sensational story to talk to someone who won't give them one.
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How much has that tower grown in recent months and what is the process by which the ever-increasing height is relayed to the aviation community, how often and in what documentation?