Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
SKY-NEWS
After just asking guests if helicopters should be banned in/around London - now showing LIVE pictures of the scene from the SKY-HD Helicopter - doh!
Not to mention the police, air-ambulance, queen, MPs that might use them!
After just asking guests if helicopters should be banned in/around London - now showing LIVE pictures of the scene from the SKY-HD Helicopter - doh!
Not to mention the police, air-ambulance, queen, MPs that might use them!
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Chris Yates "expert", on BBC -
1 Good question whether helicopter should have been flying at all this morning. Pilot had asked to divert to Battersea - were all obstructions notified to him when he asked for that diversion?
2 Nav lights on the crane should have been visible 24H (interesting that NOTAM says "lit at night") so question of whether correctly illuminated?
3 On the question of safety of A109- very safe; helicopter travel overall is relatively safe.
4 He thinks KH has a point about looking into what and who can fly helicopters over London.
1 Good question whether helicopter should have been flying at all this morning. Pilot had asked to divert to Battersea - were all obstructions notified to him when he asked for that diversion?
2 Nav lights on the crane should have been visible 24H (interesting that NOTAM says "lit at night") so question of whether correctly illuminated?
3 On the question of safety of A109- very safe; helicopter travel overall is relatively safe.
4 He thinks KH has a point about looking into what and who can fly helicopters over London.
Moderator
Very sad.
Perhaps the media should speculate less on how many helicopters fly over London, and consider the apparently (considering Grenville's fine photo) that London is encroaching upward into the helicopter's airspace!
When I used to fly along the Frazer river near Vancouver, there is a span of wires to be crossed. As you near them, your comm, no matter what frequency tuned, will receive with increasing intensity as you near: "wires....wires...wires...wires..." It is a very effective reminder. If you cannot confirm visually that you are going over them, you slow down and turn around. I presume that there is a transmitter right there, which transmits on a wide range of comm frequencies.
Perhaps tall cranes could have a similar "crane...crane..."
Perhaps the media should speculate less on how many helicopters fly over London, and consider the apparently (considering Grenville's fine photo) that London is encroaching upward into the helicopter's airspace!
When I used to fly along the Frazer river near Vancouver, there is a span of wires to be crossed. As you near them, your comm, no matter what frequency tuned, will receive with increasing intensity as you near: "wires....wires...wires...wires..." It is a very effective reminder. If you cannot confirm visually that you are going over them, you slow down and turn around. I presume that there is a transmitter right there, which transmits on a wide range of comm frequencies.
Perhaps tall cranes could have a similar "crane...crane..."
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Two questions for users of the heli-lanes
Does a twin engine machine have to stay 'over the river' on that route?
In 'Grenvilles' (first) picture, does that suggest the jib was sticking out towards the river?
Does a twin engine machine have to stay 'over the river' on that route?
In 'Grenvilles' (first) picture, does that suggest the jib was sticking out towards the river?
Avoid imitations
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Does a twin engine machine have to stay 'over the river' on that route?
No. But final approaches into the heliport, from either direction (03 or 21) are offset and must be flown over the centre of the river.
This tragedy should work to remind us all of the increase in risk that flying in marginal weather creates.
From a few posts it appears the Pilot involved is very well thought of...is considered to very Professional and quite capable. That is how I would like to talked about should something like this happen to me.
As any accident, this event must be examined to determine the chain of events that led to the crash. If it can happen to someone as Professional and capable as it did....then all of us are vulnerable.
My Condolences to the Next of Kin, the friends, and colleagues of the people lost in this sad tragedy.
From a few posts it appears the Pilot involved is very well thought of...is considered to very Professional and quite capable. That is how I would like to talked about should something like this happen to me.
As any accident, this event must be examined to determine the chain of events that led to the crash. If it can happen to someone as Professional and capable as it did....then all of us are vulnerable.
My Condolences to the Next of Kin, the friends, and colleagues of the people lost in this sad tragedy.
I am an outsider here, however:
Vale 109 pilot and the other victim, there but for the grace go I.
From the outside, I am disturbed by the focus on NOTAMS. It is as if posting a NOTAM absolves everyone else of any blame at all. Just post the NOTAM and it is suddenly 100% the pilot who "should have known"
As an EMS pilot, the area I have to brief myself on each day often has upward of 80 NOTAMs. Can I really take that on? Almost 99% of them are completely irrelevant but require detailed reading to determine that. By that stage my brain is so overloaded, what are the chances of finding, then remembering the one that counts??? Bugger all.
Then try and remember a NOTAM that applied to somewhere you were not even headed - a diversion in flight: common, but how to imagine retaining all the relevant NOTAMs for every possible iteration? it is just simply beyond human limitations to retain all possible destination NOTAMS all the time, just in case you have to go there.
But no one cares - the pilot is always at fault because The NOTAM was put up.
Why is it that I have to put a complicated costly work method and risk management statement in every time I want to do an operation in built up areas (non EMS)? I have to consider everything - why dont cranes?
Why are cranes of that height -clearly and predictably in the helicopter environment, not required by legislation to fit a transponder and high intensity strobing?
Let's read their risk management strategy and work method statement. Why did they not have a transponder?
This is also a cultural question - pilots have a great job therefore they should be responsible. Crane operators don't, therefore as long as they write a note to add to the other 400 they are sweet. But it is also one of human limitations - the most appropriate question should be how we can better design a system so overwhelmed by arse covering as to make it ineffectual? NOTAMs need a review.
Lets try and apply aviation safety requirements to cranes. There is a start, and good luck - I doubt any other industry would tolerate what aviation has to go through, certainly not one that wants to make money.
Vale 109 pilot and the other victim, there but for the grace go I.
From the outside, I am disturbed by the focus on NOTAMS. It is as if posting a NOTAM absolves everyone else of any blame at all. Just post the NOTAM and it is suddenly 100% the pilot who "should have known"
As an EMS pilot, the area I have to brief myself on each day often has upward of 80 NOTAMs. Can I really take that on? Almost 99% of them are completely irrelevant but require detailed reading to determine that. By that stage my brain is so overloaded, what are the chances of finding, then remembering the one that counts??? Bugger all.
Then try and remember a NOTAM that applied to somewhere you were not even headed - a diversion in flight: common, but how to imagine retaining all the relevant NOTAMs for every possible iteration? it is just simply beyond human limitations to retain all possible destination NOTAMS all the time, just in case you have to go there.
But no one cares - the pilot is always at fault because The NOTAM was put up.
Why is it that I have to put a complicated costly work method and risk management statement in every time I want to do an operation in built up areas (non EMS)? I have to consider everything - why dont cranes?
Why are cranes of that height -clearly and predictably in the helicopter environment, not required by legislation to fit a transponder and high intensity strobing?
Let's read their risk management strategy and work method statement. Why did they not have a transponder?
This is also a cultural question - pilots have a great job therefore they should be responsible. Crane operators don't, therefore as long as they write a note to add to the other 400 they are sweet. But it is also one of human limitations - the most appropriate question should be how we can better design a system so overwhelmed by arse covering as to make it ineffectual? NOTAMs need a review.
Lets try and apply aviation safety requirements to cranes. There is a start, and good luck - I doubt any other industry would tolerate what aviation has to go through, certainly not one that wants to make money.
Quote:
In 'Grenvilles' (first) picture, does that suggest the jib was sticking out towards the river?
- anyone to comment?
On all pics from the past the jib was almost vertical. Go on google street view and you can see that crane.
In 'Grenvilles' (first) picture, does that suggest the jib was sticking out towards the river?
- anyone to comment?
On all pics from the past the jib was almost vertical. Go on google street view and you can see that crane.
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I have to agree that the Pilot involved was one of the nicest, most knowledgeable/professional blokes I have ever come across in the industry and it was always a pleasure to have worked with him, to the point I looked forward to his company. one for us all to look up to.... A Vary sad day for aviation as one of the true good guys have left us.
The question is could this been prevented? was the boom was lit ? NOTAM only says crane lit at night ? should it of been lit in bad Viz?
I can imagine looking at the conditions that numerous factors have all contributed & as always the media have no idea. But still there are questions to be asked.
The question is could this been prevented? was the boom was lit ? NOTAM only says crane lit at night ? should it of been lit in bad Viz?
I can imagine looking at the conditions that numerous factors have all contributed & as always the media have no idea. But still there are questions to be asked.
As an EMS Pilot you have a requirement to read the Notams each time you come to work....every time. If you cannot remember all of the important ones that affect your area of operation....you make notes, or copy the notams and high light them by marking them by direction of flight or find some way to retain and use the pertinent information. That is part of your job....like it or not. Cranes, Advertising Balloons and other Temporary Obstacles are a part of Life....and you certainly are not going to change anything except the way you approach your Job and the Duties it requires.
Do you mark your map with known temporary obstacles and assign a Minimum Safe Height for those hazards? Do you maintain a list of known obstacles at your base....do you have preplanned routes to all of the places you go regularly that include minimum safe heights, Do you have a Map posted at your base showing all of the Obstacles in your area....have you amended the MSA data on the maps to incorporate the Obstacles....and do you fly at or above those Amended MSA's?
If you fly at the Minimum Safe Heights prescribed by your OpSpec's using the Obstacle Clearance requirements they require....there should not be a problem to begin with.
If you cannot maintain your Minimum enroute height, along the route you planned while considering all of the obstacles along your route....then you should abort the flight or find another route that meets all your requirements.
When it comes to running into Cranes....or Cranes running into us (as has happened offshore more than few times)....Cranes always win.
Do you mark your map with known temporary obstacles and assign a Minimum Safe Height for those hazards? Do you maintain a list of known obstacles at your base....do you have preplanned routes to all of the places you go regularly that include minimum safe heights, Do you have a Map posted at your base showing all of the Obstacles in your area....have you amended the MSA data on the maps to incorporate the Obstacles....and do you fly at or above those Amended MSA's?
If you fly at the Minimum Safe Heights prescribed by your OpSpec's using the Obstacle Clearance requirements they require....there should not be a problem to begin with.
If you cannot maintain your Minimum enroute height, along the route you planned while considering all of the obstacles along your route....then you should abort the flight or find another route that meets all your requirements.
When it comes to running into Cranes....or Cranes running into us (as has happened offshore more than few times)....Cranes always win.
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This tragedy should work to remind us all of the increase in risk that flying in marginal weather creates.
Everyone should know by now that helicopters and marginal weather simply don't work - unless you're flying like a fixed-wing, airport to airport as an IFR category flight.
one of the nicest, most knowledgeable/professional blokes I have ever come across in the industry
Another expert:
A former mercenary and army officer saw the helicopter moments before it crashed, Simon Mann said:
"I’m a member of a gym in Battersea and was walking there as usual this morning. I checked into the gym at 7.37 – I know it was that time exactly because the electronic card system we use tells us.
Shortly before then I was walking along, minding my own business. As I got close to the gym this morning I saw an extraordinary sight that very much stuck with me.
I spent decades in the military, around both helicopters and airlines, and indeed am a qualified instrument pilot who has been on some very hairy flights.
What I saw this morning was not good: a helicopter flying at about 500ft eastbound along the Thames helicopter route. As it was just passing over Chelsea Bridge I saw it disappear into the cloud, and definitely into what we call IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions. In other words, very poor conditions for flying.
Visibility must have been zero or close to it.
I expected the flight to disappear behind a block of flats I could see in front of me. But instead it did a really bizarre thing: the helicopter flew straight into dense fog. I immediately thought about how risky it looked. After all, the good thing about a helicopter is that you can stop, hover, and quickly turn around - all things you can't do in a "fixed wing" (i.e. an aeroplane). This struck me as very peculiar, to put it mildly.
I checked into the gym, changed into my running gear, and stepped onto the treadmill. The next thing I know the news screens were covered with breaking news of a helicopter crash in Vauxhall.
Naturally it’s far, far too soon to speculate on the causes of this morning’s tragic accident. But what I remember - that helicopter flying into dense fog – will stay with me forever."
Simon Mann is the author of Cry Havoc, an account of his experience as a mercenary and prisoner in Africa after an attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea.
Shortly before then I was walking along, minding my own business. As I got close to the gym this morning I saw an extraordinary sight that very much stuck with me.
I spent decades in the military, around both helicopters and airlines, and indeed am a qualified instrument pilot who has been on some very hairy flights.
What I saw this morning was not good: a helicopter flying at about 500ft eastbound along the Thames helicopter route. As it was just passing over Chelsea Bridge I saw it disappear into the cloud, and definitely into what we call IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions. In other words, very poor conditions for flying.
Visibility must have been zero or close to it.
I expected the flight to disappear behind a block of flats I could see in front of me. But instead it did a really bizarre thing: the helicopter flew straight into dense fog. I immediately thought about how risky it looked. After all, the good thing about a helicopter is that you can stop, hover, and quickly turn around - all things you can't do in a "fixed wing" (i.e. an aeroplane). This struck me as very peculiar, to put it mildly.
I checked into the gym, changed into my running gear, and stepped onto the treadmill. The next thing I know the news screens were covered with breaking news of a helicopter crash in Vauxhall.
Naturally it’s far, far too soon to speculate on the causes of this morning’s tragic accident. But what I remember - that helicopter flying into dense fog – will stay with me forever."
Simon Mann is the author of Cry Havoc, an account of his experience as a mercenary and prisoner in Africa after an attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea.
SASless
"If you fly at the Minimum Safe Heights prescribed by your OpSpec's using the Obstacle Clearance requirements they require....there should not be a problem to begin with."
Granted - but the heliport the aircraft was diverting to (possibly because of low cloud/bad weather) is obviously on the ground (well on the river actually) - so with the combination of being somewhere you don't exactly expect to be and conditions not being brilliant I could imagine it's not quite that straight forward.
That given - one has to (also) question the grant of building planning permission of a very tall building quite close to a heliport !
"If you fly at the Minimum Safe Heights prescribed by your OpSpec's using the Obstacle Clearance requirements they require....there should not be a problem to begin with."
Granted - but the heliport the aircraft was diverting to (possibly because of low cloud/bad weather) is obviously on the ground (well on the river actually) - so with the combination of being somewhere you don't exactly expect to be and conditions not being brilliant I could imagine it's not quite that straight forward.
That given - one has to (also) question the grant of building planning permission of a very tall building quite close to a heliport !
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Given that the river is the designated helicopter route it seems quite bizarre to allow a building of that size to be built on the river bank, and as just said, in vicinity of a heliport!
I'm sad that a fellow pilot has been lost but you only have to see the earlier TV pictures to realise that the weather conditions were not suitable for helicopter flying in that area. It's likely the flight wasn't that essential so sadly all this was preventable.
I've been in low vis, most of us have I'm sure, and I've got out of it damned quick and counted myself lucky. The workload is too high, it's unsafe and we shouldn't do it! NOTAMs are useless if you can't see.
I'm sad that a fellow pilot has been lost but you only have to see the earlier TV pictures to realise that the weather conditions were not suitable for helicopter flying in that area. It's likely the flight wasn't that essential so sadly all this was preventable.
I've been in low vis, most of us have I'm sure, and I've got out of it damned quick and counted myself lucky. The workload is too high, it's unsafe and we shouldn't do it! NOTAMs are useless if you can't see.
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The issue of poor representation to the media by experts who are not has been going on for about 20+ years or more by my count.
If the industry is serious about wanting proper representation it needs to get together and appoint and handful of spokespersons for the various sectors such as offshore, EMS, Police, general charter/VIP etc.
These spokespersons then need to be introduced to the media as the UK industry's recommended helicopter commentators possibility through some existing organisation like GAPAN, RAeS, etc.
It could do a lot for the industry if managed properly.
If the industry is serious about wanting proper representation it needs to get together and appoint and handful of spokespersons for the various sectors such as offshore, EMS, Police, general charter/VIP etc.
These spokespersons then need to be introduced to the media as the UK industry's recommended helicopter commentators possibility through some existing organisation like GAPAN, RAeS, etc.
It could do a lot for the industry if managed properly.
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I suppose that if we were allowed to use City Airport as a diversion it might prevent us having to choose the least bad of some very poor options!!
As much as we like getting the job done, we are mostly taking folk to work!
If they are a bit late then never mind there is always tomorrow!
As much as we like getting the job done, we are mostly taking folk to work!
If they are a bit late then never mind there is always tomorrow!