Helicopter - v - crane LONDON

[ShyTorque]

City were reportedly on the easterly runway. Aircraft landing there in that circumstance are routinely vectored from the south onto a base leg/closing heading for the ILS "over the top" of the heliroutes. To maintain aircraft separation, the altitude clearance normally given to helicopters routing southbound to Vauxhall bridge is "not above 1000 feet".

There were fog patches and some low cloud, possibly some at 1,000 feet. The pilot would be reluctant to climb above it because he must have been VFR /SVFR and was therefore required to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

[chopjock]

Why would 700 feet be appropriate at that point?

Regardless of vis, destination or intentions, is it not a bit low, even for a twin, over the river

Icing conditions higher up

[chopperchappie]

"Why would 700 feet be appropriate at that point?"

Notwithstanding the NOTAM which declaredthe crane as 770ft

Given the highest obstruction shown on the charts is 332 ft + 500ft = 832 ft and a 1Hpa being 30ft and a pilot's operating capability being 25-50 ft (in bad weather probably less), if you knock 80-100 ft off 832 ft it wouldn't be difficult to think you were 500 ft clear of anything in the vicinity and actually be about 750ft AGL

By my calculations - but I never was good at maths !

[Pittsextra]

I'm not experienced enough to know the issues he would have faced with flying in the area or in that weather, but for sure weather was a factor if for no other reason than in a flight lasting less than 30 mins he was diverting to Battersea heliport (and from some accounts this may have even been the 2nd divert).

Given these strange circumstances and the usual operator/contract pilot arrangement would making the operator more liable for the authorisation of flights would be a good thing?

[wilyflier]

Ice and cheeseholes

Im just asking too(
Freezing level 1000 to 1500,+ airspace limits,cant climb out
picking up ice?
only just daylight Patchy fog worse ahead ?
Rotor vibration? diversion?turning over river back to Battersea? darent climb?
Can't you just stop and hover down onto the river?
Probably not, ouch

[HeliStudent]

What is this minimum height that a helicopter is allowed to fly along the Thames?

[nigelh]

The flight is svfr There is no MSA . Also the metar shows that icing could be encountered even at 100ft . This was only ever going to be vfr I believe.

[A310bcal]

There were fog patches and some low cloud, possibly some at 1,000 feet. The pilot would be reluctant to climb above it because he must have been VFR /SVFR and was therefore required to remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

I see a number of references to icing conditions and some one posted the 08.20Z weather for City Airport giving scattered at 100' , temp and dew point -3'C.....and I wonder about icing conditions and whether the Agusta is cleared for flight in what I would describe as "hostile " weather for any one contemplating single crew ops in congested airspace ?

From Vauxhall reporting point to Battersea Heliport, I guess the crash site was almost on that direct track ? As some one has suggested, a time to change frequency, high workload....... ?

Maintaining SVFR, not above a 1000', obstacle up to 770'....not a lot of room for error.....? Crane shrouded in low cloud.....?

I'd just not want to be in that sort of scenario, no matter how good I was.

Losing a fellow pilot is always a tragedy, and worse when others die too, as a result. A sad day for heli aviation.

[Pittsextra]

The flight is svfr There is no MSA . Also the metar shows that icing could be encountered even at 100ft . This was only ever going to be vfr I believe.

So:- would making the operator more liable for the authorisation of flights would be a good thing?

[mixture]

So:- would making the operator more liable for the authorisation of flights would be a good thing?

I think its a well established principle that the buck stops at the commander of the aircraft.

The commander is the one at the pointy end of the aircraft... the operator can authorise all they want .... but in the end, the commander is the one who gets to pick up the s*it after it hits the fan a few thousand feet up in the air.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Between a rock and a hard place and single pilot so quite a workload.

[melmothtw]

Reminds me of the time the private jet crashed after take off at Biggen Hill a couple of years ago, it was either the same day or the day after I sat dumfounded as I listened to Jeremy Vine on radio 2 asking an eye witness if he could see peoples faces in the windows of the jet before the crash. Lowest of the low does not come even come close.
I will bet he's on today gearing up to spew his puerile jurno crap.

The aircraft that came down in Farnbrough Basher? If so, I remember eye witnesses saying they had seen the passengers through the windows and Jeremy Vine was trying to clarify what exactly it was they were saying.

I know it's SOP for Pprune to bash the media at every opportinuty, but would be advisable to get the facts straight first.

[SASless]

As it was an Air Taxi Operation...does not the AOC holder have a responsibility re Dispatch of Aircraft and a requirement to track the flight and if the aircraft does not arrive....to then initiate SAR procedures?

[Pittsextra]

I think its a well established principle that the buck stops at the commander of the aircraft.

The commander is the one at the pointy end of the aircraft... the operator can authorise all they want .... but in the end, the commander is the one who gets to pick up the s*it after it hits the fan a few thousand feet up in the air.

Sure agree, my point being that there are a great number of operators with contract pilots on a day rate, which means that there is a great burden for the pilot to bow to commercial pressure.

If the operator had equal liability, especially with regard to the flight plan, when faced with poor weather perhaps some might think twice?

Edited to add :- I don't just mean a corporate body (such as XYZ air charter Ltd) who then off load it to their insurers. I mean make directors criminally responsible.

[Grenville Fortescue]

A small change in weather conditions could have 'trapped' the experienced helicopter pilot who crashed in the capital, killing himself and a pedestrian below, an aviation expert claimed today.

David Learmount spoke after the helicopter clipped a tower in Vauxhall, central London, at 8am yesterday and plunged 700ft to the ground, killing pilot Pete Barnes, 50, and Matthew Wood, 39.

The conditions near The Tower St George Wharf may have become very tough, stopping the pilot from landing where he wanted, the operations and safety editor of Flight International magazine said.

Mr Learmount told BBC London: ‘Weather will turn out to be the key issue. When you fly in marginal conditions it only needs a little dip in what you were expecting and you're pretty much trapped.’
He added: 'He probably did not see the crane until it was too late. Sometimes even bright lights are difficult to see in foggy conditions.'

David Learmount

Paul Beaver, a defence and military equipment expert, said: 'The weather conditions were extremely challenging this morning. We have rules and there are procedures in place for helicopter flight.

'The River Thames is a safe place to fly through because aircraft can land in the water,' he told Sky News. 'It’s much more challenging in reduced visibility. It’s very much up to the pilot to fly the right route and do the right things.'

Paul Bever

Aviation expert Simon Mitchell, a friend of Mr Barnes, said he had doubts over reports claiming the helicopter was out of control before striking the crane and plunging onto the busy street below.

‘I feel it may be a perception thing,’ Dr Mitchell told ITV’s Daybreak today. ‘This is depending on their viewpoint, they may have not appreciated the distance of the jib from the building itself.
‘As soon as it made contact with that structure, it would have deviated from its flight path.’

Simon Mitchell

Ap Rees, editor of Helicopter International, said it was a ‘one in a million’ accident that was ‘almost unique’, adding that ‘the pilot, from what I can gather so far, was doing all the right things’. He added: ‘He was a very experienced pilot - the weather should not have been a problem. There are occasions when you start off with clear weather and soon find it is deteriorating. ‘In impractical circumstances, the right thing to do is rather than pushing into the bad weather is divert and land as quick as possible. It is not hugely common for helicopters to be affected by bad weather.’

Elfan Ap Rees

'It would be sensible to ask some basic questions about whether the rules that exist, that were designed for a different skyline, are right for the skyline of today and tomorrow.'

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg

'We'll want to look at the way we illuminate tall buildings, the way cranes are illuminated, to make sure nothing went wrong in this case and make sure nothing goes wrong in the future,' Mr Johnson said.

'There are all sorts of questions that people are asking now about tall buildings, about lighting, about the fog, about the usage of Battersea Heliport - and those are very understandable.'

Boris Johnson

Battersea Heliport reopened today following yesterday’s fatal helicopter crash.

A staff member said the first arrival was expected about 11am, followed by several more during the day. Another staff member at the heliport confirmed he knew pilot Pete Barnes, who perished yesterday when his helicopter crashed into a crane in nearby Vauxhall amid thick fog.

The Heliport received a request from Heathrow air traffic control asking it to accept Mr Barnes’s helicopter - after he asked to be diverted because of bad weather - but was not able to make contact with the chopper itself.

Opened in 1959, the Battersea Heliport is now the only Civil Aviation Authority licensed heliport serving Britain after the closure of the City of London floating helipad at Trigg Lane in 1985.

..........................

[Ditter]

Scissor link.

I'm new here,and very saddened by yesterday's events.
Having seen a picture posted by Grenville that shows the rotor head.Are there any closer pictures of the scissor link in that picture available Grenville?.And has anyone got pictures of an uncovered power rotor head.Been searching and searching.As for the crane,they are left to slew/unlocked.Unless near other objects.This luffing jib can withstand higher winds,so may have been locked.Any damage from the very top down would cut the cable supporting it.It would then be able to snap under it's own weight falling(tear from it's mounting). I doubt that in that visibility and at 100mph,he stood much of a chance.This particular building juts out so abruptly from the line of the river most would follow visually.But I still find it hard to believe,considering how good this guy was.

[FairWeatherFlyer]

Rhetorical straw poll for rotary pilots, go look at those METARs/TAFs again, would you go for a non-IFR flight at that departure time?? "extremely challenging" and "marginal" just sound like euphemisms to me, kind ones maybe.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Given the change in the London skyline maybe time to move the city heliport
elsewhere and perhaps restrict non public service ops to the route over the Thames?

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Or maybe since this is the first major accident in 53-54 years in the zone everyone should just get on with the high level of regulation and safety the helicopter industry in the UK already works to.

[Flap 5]

Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia

Or maybe since this is the first major accident in 53-54 years in the zone everyone should just get on with the high level of regulation and safety the helicopter industry in the UK already works to.

SND

Indeed. This accident was a very odd one for such an experienced pilot. Maybe the particular circumstances leading up to the accident should be studied and any lessons learnt.