Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
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Hmm .. G-CRST struck the crane 7 seconds after being told to contact Battersea:
Swiss Cheese - I see you've asked people to PM you, meaning you want to answer privately those questions people have about your conduct.
Tell me, this pilot whom you supposedly "dobbed in" to the CAA, did you give him this same chance to explain to you his actions in private?
Swiss Cheese - I see you've asked people to PM you, meaning you want to answer privately those questions people have about your conduct.
Tell me, this pilot whom you supposedly "dobbed in" to the CAA, did you give him this same chance to explain to you his actions in private?
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Grenville
The contents of the AAIB Special Bulletin demonstrate that your self-indulgent diatribe in your post 329, regarding your predicted scenario, was well wide of the mark in most areas. Which was of no great surprise to me, or I suspect any other pilot familiar with flying IFR twins in the London area.
I suggest it's time, to use your own words, you licked YOUR wounds, pipe down a bit and think before you post. Pete Barnes may have made a mistake here, but he was an outstanding pilot with I suspect vastly more experience of the kind of ops you are trying to be an expert on than you. This whole matter is far too tragic and serious to be treated as some Sherlock Holmes novel.
The contents of the AAIB Special Bulletin demonstrate that your self-indulgent diatribe in your post 329, regarding your predicted scenario, was well wide of the mark in most areas. Which was of no great surprise to me, or I suspect any other pilot familiar with flying IFR twins in the London area.
I suggest it's time, to use your own words, you licked YOUR wounds, pipe down a bit and think before you post. Pete Barnes may have made a mistake here, but he was an outstanding pilot with I suspect vastly more experience of the kind of ops you are trying to be an expert on than you. This whole matter is far too tragic and serious to be treated as some Sherlock Holmes novel.
Am I reading this correctly?
During flight in marginal and changing weather that the pilot was having text message exchanges with the "client" and "witness A" or am I being thick and have the times wrong?
During flight in marginal and changing weather that the pilot was having text message exchanges with the "client" and "witness A" or am I being thick and have the times wrong?
Am I reading this correctly?
During flight in marginal and changing weather that the pilot was having text message exchanges with the "client" and "witness A" or am I being thick and have the times wrong?
During flight in marginal and changing weather that the pilot was having text message exchanges with the "client" and "witness A" or am I being thick and have the times wrong?
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Swiss Cheese
Please feel free to point out anything I said which you claim is inaccurate.
BTW, in my earlier post I missed one of your press interviews mentioned on your firm's website: "James Healy-Pratt gives interview to Radio LBC 97.3 on Vauxhall crash"
That was the Ken Livingstone & David Mellor show. You may remember proposing that twin-engine helicopters flying over London should be required to have two pilots.
You also suggested that helicopters should have black boxes but it wasn’t clear if you meant all helicopters or those flying over London.
When asked by Livingstone (who is notoriously anti helicopters) if there has been an increase in helicopter traffic over London over the last 20 years, you said “I can’t tell you exactly but my gut instinct is probably”, adding that you explained that you see helicopters flying up and down the Thames from your 11th floor office.
You can’t be expected to know all the figures for the last 20 years but I’m surprised that, as someone who describes himself as having “considerable experience as an air safety expert in the media”, you weren’t able to point out that the traffic has been decreasing since 2007 and continues to decrease.
Link to Guardian article which contains a summary of the figures and a link to the full CAA stats:
How many helicopters fly over London?
off the mark in terms of content and accuracy.
BTW, in my earlier post I missed one of your press interviews mentioned on your firm's website: "James Healy-Pratt gives interview to Radio LBC 97.3 on Vauxhall crash"
That was the Ken Livingstone & David Mellor show. You may remember proposing that twin-engine helicopters flying over London should be required to have two pilots.
You also suggested that helicopters should have black boxes but it wasn’t clear if you meant all helicopters or those flying over London.
When asked by Livingstone (who is notoriously anti helicopters) if there has been an increase in helicopter traffic over London over the last 20 years, you said “I can’t tell you exactly but my gut instinct is probably”, adding that you explained that you see helicopters flying up and down the Thames from your 11th floor office.
You can’t be expected to know all the figures for the last 20 years but I’m surprised that, as someone who describes himself as having “considerable experience as an air safety expert in the media”, you weren’t able to point out that the traffic has been decreasing since 2007 and continues to decrease.
Link to Guardian article which contains a summary of the figures and a link to the full CAA stats:
How many helicopters fly over London?
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Ok someone please help me get the gist of this, was he visual on top while holding east of Battersea and then about to make a descent or below the cloud base?
Much of the trip from central London to Elstree and back seems to have been conducted over 8/8, is this correct?
While he may have been in VMC on top would this not have been an IFR category flight? How come then he was SVFR or does SVFR cover his flight profile?
Much of the trip from central London to Elstree and back seems to have been conducted over 8/8, is this correct?
While he may have been in VMC on top would this not have been an IFR category flight? How come then he was SVFR or does SVFR cover his flight profile?
Eagle-eyed readers will have noticed that the texts had ceased four minutes before the crash.
At 0731 hrs, having noticed how poor the weather was during his journey, the client called the pilot to suggest that he did not take off until he (the client) had reached Elstree and observed the weather. The pilot replied that he was already starting the engines. The client stated that he repeated his suggestion that the pilot should not take off.
or
0630
Pilot
Client
Weather ok up north but freezing fog at Elstree and Luton not clearing between 8 - 10am I’ve got same at Redhill keep you posted
0640
Pilot
Operator
Freezing fog all london airports ok up north have text [client] clearing between 8 - 10
0705
Witness A
Pilot
Give me a call as I have checked weather and freezing fog around at the moment
quite aside from the operator happy to text and be texted by his pilot as demonstrated here:-
0755
Pilot
Operator
Can’t get in Elstree hdg back assume clear still
0755
Operator
Pilot
Yes it’s fine still here.
NB. This text was not read
I don't know what planet you are on but this is shameful.
OK so we have an A109 transiting the London Control Zone probably flying at 150 knots (during transit) on a still, very cold SE England morning when the slightest stir of wind or warming by the sun can create fog or low cloud as those of us who are "experienced" know only too well.
The destination is fogged. The weather at Battersea is unknown as the pilot has not yet contacted them, even though the decision to divert there has been made. So, now, with all the attendant route, GPS and frequency changes the pilot is sending texts and talking on the phone...
Not much more to investigate really is there?
But, I would have some questions and observations:
1) Had the "experienced" pilot ever undertaken a single pilot CRM (ADM) or Decision Making Course? Did the operator require such training?
2) Texting while driving is stupid and illegal where I live. Texting while flying is worse, texting while flying single pilot is even worse still and texting while trying to arrange a diversion in the London Control Zone and flying single pilot is beyond my comprehension. Surely it should be made illegal?
3) The company I work for (which contracts millions of $ in helicopter services every year) does not allow single pilot operations at any time, in any weather or in any aircraft. Does Ken Livingstone have a point, especially in marginal weather?
4) The company I work for does not allow any freelance pilots to fly aircraft it contracts or charters at any time. Why? Because of the implied commercial pressure.
This high profile accident will be a case study in Aviation Safety for many years. The holes in this cheese are so big you could fly through them.
The destination is fogged. The weather at Battersea is unknown as the pilot has not yet contacted them, even though the decision to divert there has been made. So, now, with all the attendant route, GPS and frequency changes the pilot is sending texts and talking on the phone...
Not much more to investigate really is there?
But, I would have some questions and observations:
1) Had the "experienced" pilot ever undertaken a single pilot CRM (ADM) or Decision Making Course? Did the operator require such training?
2) Texting while driving is stupid and illegal where I live. Texting while flying is worse, texting while flying single pilot is even worse still and texting while trying to arrange a diversion in the London Control Zone and flying single pilot is beyond my comprehension. Surely it should be made illegal?
3) The company I work for (which contracts millions of $ in helicopter services every year) does not allow single pilot operations at any time, in any weather or in any aircraft. Does Ken Livingstone have a point, especially in marginal weather?
4) The company I work for does not allow any freelance pilots to fly aircraft it contracts or charters at any time. Why? Because of the implied commercial pressure.
This high profile accident will be a case study in Aviation Safety for many years. The holes in this cheese are so big you could fly through them.
Last edited by industry insider; 23rd Jan 2013 at 12:10.
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Pitts
What planet am I on?
Unlike some other PPRuNe forums, Rotorheads has a long established reputation for exchanging differing views without being rude. Please don't spoil it.
Since you ask, I'm more interested in what happened immediately preceding the collision with the crane than what the pilot did/didn't do earlier.
H.
What planet am I on?
Unlike some other PPRuNe forums, Rotorheads has a long established reputation for exchanging differing views without being rude. Please don't spoil it.
Since you ask, I'm more interested in what happened immediately preceding the collision with the crane than what the pilot did/didn't do earlier.
H.
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Unlike some other PPRuNe forums, Rotorheads has a long established reputation for exchanging differing views without being rude. Please don't spoil it.
Since you ask, I'm more interested in what happened immediately preceding the collision with the crane than what the pilot did/didn't do earlier.
Since you ask, I'm more interested in what happened immediately preceding the collision with the crane than what the pilot did/didn't do earlier.
Re: texting and flying. Not quite the same as texting and driving, especially if your a/c is fitted with AP. Not recommending it though - just saying its not the same.
Heliport,
the letters FFS is an expression of exasperation and not an insult. Lets just clear that distraction up right away. So to be clear the FFS was not swearing at you, if you take it that way I am sorry. OK so lets get back to the subject.
The wisdom of texting or not is up to the individual - we all know it goes on so it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. Although while you are on a lets look at the lighting on a crane quest don't be surprised if that gets swept away by the text debate.
Actually its the attitude to weather that staggers me.
If this is a reflection of commercial helicopter operations then its dire.
the letters FFS is an expression of exasperation and not an insult. Lets just clear that distraction up right away. So to be clear the FFS was not swearing at you, if you take it that way I am sorry. OK so lets get back to the subject.
The wisdom of texting or not is up to the individual - we all know it goes on so it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. Although while you are on a lets look at the lighting on a crane quest don't be surprised if that gets swept away by the text debate.
Actually its the attitude to weather that staggers me.
If this is a reflection of commercial helicopter operations then its dire.
Folks.....time to be honest with ourselves here.
The Reported Weather is such you know there is adverse weather at your destination but is forecasted to clear by mid-morning.
The Client tells you not to bother as the weather is bad.
You tell decide to Take Off and go see for yourself.
You declare you will land in a field if necessary.
You get to your Destination and yes....you cannot get in....after a second message from your Client who says it is a No-Go.
You turn around and head home....change your mind for some reason and try to divert.
You are texting on a goddamned Smart phone while flying Single Pilot in marginal weather in a very complicated area to navigate a safe course.
Does anyone NOT see a problem here?
Barnes may have been a very nice fellow, and a very good pilot....but as we all know....sometimes we just get it wrong.
The sad part....is this did not just happen that one time and I will bet you it is not just Barnes that has done it...is doing it....and will do it again.
Are we subjected to such external pressures and self inflicted pressures that we cannot just say...."NO!" and head for the Tea Pot?
The Client was saying "NO!" for crying out loud.....there is your Sign folks.
We lost a good guy for no good reason.
Can we all learn a lesson from this?
Let's be honest and ask who was applying the pressure....there had to be some or else Barnes would not have taken off based upon the weather reports.
He would not have taken off upon the Client telling him not to...but he did anyway.
Why do you takeoff and "go see"....if the reported weather is below minimums...the weather is below minimums.
When the Client told you a second time the weather was rat ****....why not turn around at that point...why continue on.
The CAA and AAIB need to get squarely in the middle of this and study why this accident occurred.....and I don't mean the running into the Crane. That was the result of the cause of the accident.
There seems to be an issue with the marking of Cranes that needs to be addressed....and a study of how those markings are inspected and monitored....but the real issue is why an experienced, professional, capable Pilot like Barnes....did what he did.
How did he fall into this trap?
The Reported Weather is such you know there is adverse weather at your destination but is forecasted to clear by mid-morning.
The Client tells you not to bother as the weather is bad.
You tell decide to Take Off and go see for yourself.
You declare you will land in a field if necessary.
You get to your Destination and yes....you cannot get in....after a second message from your Client who says it is a No-Go.
You turn around and head home....change your mind for some reason and try to divert.
You are texting on a goddamned Smart phone while flying Single Pilot in marginal weather in a very complicated area to navigate a safe course.
Does anyone NOT see a problem here?
Barnes may have been a very nice fellow, and a very good pilot....but as we all know....sometimes we just get it wrong.
The sad part....is this did not just happen that one time and I will bet you it is not just Barnes that has done it...is doing it....and will do it again.
Are we subjected to such external pressures and self inflicted pressures that we cannot just say...."NO!" and head for the Tea Pot?
The Client was saying "NO!" for crying out loud.....there is your Sign folks.
We lost a good guy for no good reason.
Can we all learn a lesson from this?
Let's be honest and ask who was applying the pressure....there had to be some or else Barnes would not have taken off based upon the weather reports.
He would not have taken off upon the Client telling him not to...but he did anyway.
Why do you takeoff and "go see"....if the reported weather is below minimums...the weather is below minimums.
When the Client told you a second time the weather was rat ****....why not turn around at that point...why continue on.
The CAA and AAIB need to get squarely in the middle of this and study why this accident occurred.....and I don't mean the running into the Crane. That was the result of the cause of the accident.
There seems to be an issue with the marking of Cranes that needs to be addressed....and a study of how those markings are inspected and monitored....but the real issue is why an experienced, professional, capable Pilot like Barnes....did what he did.
How did he fall into this trap?
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Before assuming that his hands / thumbs were busy, also note that some phones can text for you based on speech alone (mine certainly can) so I can text here in the UK legally whilst driving a car. The driving prohibition relates to touching / handling your phone so hands-free speech or text is legal.
Not saying that's what he did, or what he did was right. Just that we don't know the potential importance of this behaviour to the accident sequence yet.
Not saying that's what he did, or what he did was right. Just that we don't know the potential importance of this behaviour to the accident sequence yet.
Last edited by John R81; 23rd Jan 2013 at 12:37.
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the letters FFS is an expression of exasperation and not an insult. Lets just clear that distraction up right away. So to be clear the FFS was not swearing at you, if you take it that way I am sorry.
While I'm not surprised to see that everyone is so quick to jump on the texting thing, I think some are very quick to be harsh. Read John's comments above - nicely pointed out. Also nicely pointed out is Heliport's post. Texting ceased significantly before impact. Some of you will give the wrong idea to the general public and layman!!!
Industry Insider - Really?? Your 'questions and observations' are seriously going to excite the press. Do you not realise they actually read these forums?
Last edited by Old Age Pilot; 23rd Jan 2013 at 12:40.
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There are many issues here that have no relevance to just why the crane was actually hit, and as Heliport says, that is the critical one.
Going to have a look at Elstree was optimistic, but there may have been a hole. There was plenty of fuel to divert, after all. A sensible go around at Elstree was made. The texts incurred no significant risk or danger - in fact the ability to communicate probably reduced pilot stress. The flight to Elstree could easily have been made IFR through City zone in VMC above the fog, and routed right by Vauxhall. The original intention was to return to Redhill, where he weather was ok and far better than many here were claiming. Fog can be 300m vis 500m away from somewhere CAVOK. When the Thames at H4became visual a Battersea divert was attempted.
We still don't know specifically what caused the collision with the crane.
Going to have a look at Elstree was optimistic, but there may have been a hole. There was plenty of fuel to divert, after all. A sensible go around at Elstree was made. The texts incurred no significant risk or danger - in fact the ability to communicate probably reduced pilot stress. The flight to Elstree could easily have been made IFR through City zone in VMC above the fog, and routed right by Vauxhall. The original intention was to return to Redhill, where he weather was ok and far better than many here were claiming. Fog can be 300m vis 500m away from somewhere CAVOK. When the Thames at H4became visual a Battersea divert was attempted.
We still don't know specifically what caused the collision with the crane.
Last edited by rotorspeed; 23rd Jan 2013 at 12:46.
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Pitts
I've already answered "what planet" I'm on.
As JR81 rightly says, "we don't know the potential importance of this behaviour to the accident sequence yet."
Industry Insider
I'm pleased you aren't an AAIB inspector.
As OAP says, people should bear in mind that journos read these forums and quote from them.
H.
I've already answered "what planet" I'm on.
As JR81 rightly says, "we don't know the potential importance of this behaviour to the accident sequence yet."
Industry Insider
Not much more to investigate really is there?
As OAP says, people should bear in mind that journos read these forums and quote from them.
H.