Helicopter - v - crane LONDON
S-61 and S-76 wipers were also good ice accretion gauges. But I suspect ice isn't the issue here. Although there maybe some mitigating factors, it will probebly just come down to a case of trying to maintain VMC in marginal weather.
When you think about it, very unlucky to hit something with the diameter of a crane among all that airspace.
When you think about it, very unlucky to hit something with the diameter of a crane among all that airspace.
Having struggled to get into places like Regents Park in marginal weather, by day and night, I can vouch for the fact that sitting in the cloudbase is a bad place to be. Much better to risk the complaints and get 50' to 100' lower so you can see where all the obstacles above you are.
It had an ice accretion meter (ho ho ho) still have the scars on my back 34 years later.
I seem to remember 10mm but there was something about a Q rise which meant you'd never get that far!!
I seem to remember 10mm but there was something about a Q rise which meant you'd never get that far!!
skadi
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Much better to risk the complaints and get 50' to 100' lower so you can see where all the obstacles above you are.
Sadly, I suspect that many other pilots in the civilian world would agree with me when I say that I would fear for my licence if I deliberately broke the 500 feet rule. I know that you are allowed to break the rules if essential for safety's sake, but you do then need to report this in writing to the CAA, and I, for one, would suspect that the CAA would claim that if that became necessary then I shouldn't have been flying in the first place. There's no hiding from CAA/radar traces when you're in London airspace. Poor judgement = no licence. QED.
Sadly, I suspect that many other pilots in the civilian world would agree with me when I say that I would fear for my licence if I deliberately broke the 500 feet rule. I know that you are allowed to break the rules if essential for safety's sake, but you do then need to report this in writing to the CAA, and I, for one, would suspect that the CAA would claim that if that became necessary then I shouldn't have been flying in the first place. There's no hiding from CAA/radar traces when you're in London airspace. Poor judgement = no licence. QED
Anyone that worries about his license before he worries about his own Ass....is terminally stupid.
Folks remember this.....Ass, Tin, Ticket....in that order.
First...do what saves yer butt!
Second...the aircraft is a re-useable container that is there to protect the contents....your butt.
Third....the license is renewable....in time you can get it back.
Folks remember this.....Ass, Tin, Ticket....in that order.
First...do what saves yer butt!
Second...the aircraft is a re-useable container that is there to protect the contents....your butt.
Third....the license is renewable....in time you can get it back.
Last edited by SASless; 21st Jan 2013 at 17:10. Reason: Bowed to popular demand....removed "Young"
MG ,perhaps 3 mm...
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SASless - well said indeed but, the problem isn't so much with newbies as it is with high time drivers who've been in similar situations a hundred times before and for them the "bollox" of writing-up a CAA report or admitting defeat or an error of judgement is often something they are loathed to do.
Obviously not applicable to all high timers, more like the odd one here and there.
Obviously not applicable to all high timers, more like the odd one here and there.
AIC
SASless, Pittsextra
Think you might be right on that one: check out a new Safety (Pink) AIC on the subject: AIC P146/2012
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/pamsl..._2012_P_146_en
Flug
Think you might be right on that one: check out a new Safety (Pink) AIC on the subject: AIC P146/2012
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/pamsl..._2012_P_146_en
Flug
Avoid imitations
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Flug, That document is very interesting, but you copied a forbidden link 
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2012-12-20.pdf
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2012-12-20.pdf
Last edited by ShyTorque; 21st Jan 2013 at 16:52.
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Flugplatz......link not working!
Agree entirely with SASless, but can also sympathise with those who might not want to draw attention to themselves by "owning up" to the CAA. Having submitted a report along similar lines many years previously, their response was more along the lines of a bollocking - "you shouldn't have gotten yourself into the situation in the first place."
I'm sure it's still on record.
Agree entirely with SASless, but can also sympathise with those who might not want to draw attention to themselves by "owning up" to the CAA. Having submitted a report along similar lines many years previously, their response was more along the lines of a bollocking - "you shouldn't have gotten yourself into the situation in the first place."
I'm sure it's still on record.
Edited the post to make it all inclusive.....as it probably should have been to begin with. I assumed....probably wrongly....that the older guys and gals had learned that by this point in their careers.
One thing I might have added....is landing out might be an inconvenience, embarrassing perhaps, and the cause of troubles with the Crats....but it beats running into something that will kill you without remorse or hesitation.
One thing I might have added....is landing out might be an inconvenience, embarrassing perhaps, and the cause of troubles with the Crats....but it beats running into something that will kill you without remorse or hesitation.
MG, you are right about the accretion limits - the funny thing was that the accretion probe only measured up to 30mm so you theoretically had to reach out and wipe it clean and then wait for a second 30mm to reach your 60mm of rime! I think the engines would have flamed out long before that!
I can't remember the max Tq but 80% seems to stick in my mind - it is 12 years since I last flew one though.
The icing indicator on the Gazelle was much more precise - the homing aerials used to wag in opposition when you started to accrete ice! Yes, I know it didn't have an icing clearance but it was easy to get caught out in the MW IF boxes at 5500'!
That CAA circular will hopefully make it clear that a precautionary landing in deteriorating weather is definitely an acceptable course of action.
I can't remember the max Tq but 80% seems to stick in my mind - it is 12 years since I last flew one though.
The icing indicator on the Gazelle was much more precise - the homing aerials used to wag in opposition when you started to accrete ice! Yes, I know it didn't have an icing clearance but it was easy to get caught out in the MW IF boxes at 5500'!
That CAA circular will hopefully make it clear that a precautionary landing in deteriorating weather is definitely an acceptable course of action.
Once did an interesting Instrument Rating Check Ride with a CAA fellow....we bagged ADF tracking leg after we iced up to the point the ADF had quit working. He asked what I would do on a Revenue flight and my somewhat bogus reply about "Ah Sir....we just would never fly in Icing Conditions on a Revenue Flight over the North Sea." After a big laugh.....he said that was the right answer.
109E,
First place you see ice accretion is on the vertical part of the pitot tubes through the skylight.
Ice doesn't really stick that much to this aircraft.
Given my only experience of it is in freezing rain.
Ref: The ticket.
Many moons ago after a spate of weather related VFR accidents CAA knee jerk was to raise VFR minima to stupidly high levels.
An old salt on the way home was told by ATC that the field was closed under the new rules to VFR.
Old salt sez - "Listen son, I am up here because you are down there or is it the other way around?
Silence.
Under stress of weather you can land wherever you like.
As SAS sez - Ass, Tin, Ticket.
First place you see ice accretion is on the vertical part of the pitot tubes through the skylight.
Ice doesn't really stick that much to this aircraft.
Given my only experience of it is in freezing rain.
Ref: The ticket.
Many moons ago after a spate of weather related VFR accidents CAA knee jerk was to raise VFR minima to stupidly high levels.
An old salt on the way home was told by ATC that the field was closed under the new rules to VFR.
Old salt sez - "Listen son, I am up here because you are down there or is it the other way around?
Silence.
Under stress of weather you can land wherever you like.
As SAS sez - Ass, Tin, Ticket.
For regular media filmwork the 500ft rule translates to working at 750 feet agl down the Thames.
Filming flights down to 500ft have been (very rarely) allowed with prior permission and paperwork without closing vehicular and pedestrian traffic on the bridges.
It seems permission below 500ft requires a Bond film or Olympic Opening ceromony sized budget/project.
From a non pilots perspective it seems perverse that a particular flight regime can be flow with the right paperwork yet same regime is not the highest priority when fate lady luck and human error conspire against the pilot.
Just what are the consequences for a precautionary landing in London or a 300ft agl scud run due weather?
Mickjoebill
Filming flights down to 500ft have been (very rarely) allowed with prior permission and paperwork without closing vehicular and pedestrian traffic on the bridges.
It seems permission below 500ft requires a Bond film or Olympic Opening ceromony sized budget/project.
From a non pilots perspective it seems perverse that a particular flight regime can be flow with the right paperwork yet same regime is not the highest priority when fate lady luck and human error conspire against the pilot.
Just what are the consequences for a precautionary landing in London or a 300ft agl scud run due weather?
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 22nd Jan 2013 at 01:35.
Tail wagging dog?
If the circumstances are against you, be it weather, equipment failure , or a hundred other reasons, identifiable risk against life or limb who gives a tuppenny toss?
Ass, Tin, Ticket. I dont see rulebook in that equation.
If the circumstances are against you, be it weather, equipment failure , or a hundred other reasons, identifiable risk against life or limb who gives a tuppenny toss?
Ass, Tin, Ticket. I dont see rulebook in that equation.