UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
... appear to be relying on Officers love of the job to keep them, regardless of how badly things are being run ...
Normal British employment situation. Get over it.
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A combination of factors has caused the TFO numbers problem, including the ceasation of the reserve role and the fact that TFOs from units that have closed can't afford to travel the extra distance to the remaining units that have vacancies, also the new rosters will have put off some. Some units will have been operating with 1 + 7 so there's an instant shortfall.
It might help if the advertising for new TFOs makes the 'specialist pay' situation clearer. As we know, the military 'reward' flying duty with an additional allowance, which seems to attract and keep enough volunteers. Rather than attempt the impossible by asking for flying pay to retain and attract TFOs it would seem obvious to include them as specialists inside the pay structure that already exists with a bit of smoke and mirrors.....after all we're only talking about 200 salaries here.
It might help if the advertising for new TFOs makes the 'specialist pay' situation clearer. As we know, the military 'reward' flying duty with an additional allowance, which seems to attract and keep enough volunteers. Rather than attempt the impossible by asking for flying pay to retain and attract TFOs it would seem obvious to include them as specialists inside the pay structure that already exists with a bit of smoke and mirrors.....after all we're only talking about 200 salaries here.
Tightgit
Morris. I don't think NPAS are in a position yet to fight your corner.
If you think back to Winsor 2 then there were 2 elements which may have bridged the gap following the loss of CRTP
Recommendation 94 – An interim Expertise and Professional Accreditation Allowance (EPAA) should be introduced from April 2013. It should reward qualifying officers for the skills they use in the four stated priority functions: neighbourhood policing; public order; investigation; and firearms. The EPAA should be £600 per annum, and should be paid monthly. It should be removed when an officer leaves the qualifying role. The EPAA should be abolished when the Specialist Skills Threshold is introduced.
This was (as stated) proposed as an interim payment. The PAT has not accepted it and therefore no-one, even those within the four proposed policing functions, will receive it.
The long term plan to reward specialisms is covered by....
Recommendation 97 – A Specialist Skills Threshold should be introduced at the final pay point of all police officer pay scales up to and including chief superintendent, by 2016 at the latest. It should consist of a rigorous test of the specialist knowledge and skills required in each role and rank. The Police Professional Body should be remitted to devise the test.
...and further described and defined by recommendations 98 and 99. Recommendation 99 is of course the one that feels like the kick in the guts, as it refers to the table (table 9.6 if you're interested), that specifically excludes TFO's. However, the last sentence of recommendation 97 refers to the organisation which will actually decide which specialism can reach the specialist skills threshold and which can't!
Now the Police Professional Body, which has been set up to devise the test as described in Recommendations 97 and 99 is the College of Policing. Headed by the Former head of the ACPO Air Support Committee, Alec Marshall. As that organisation has only just been established then it is very unlikely that NPAS High Command have been able to influence anything, and neither for that matter has anyone else. So I think you are going to need to be patient or trusting.
If you think back to Winsor 2 then there were 2 elements which may have bridged the gap following the loss of CRTP
Recommendation 94 – An interim Expertise and Professional Accreditation Allowance (EPAA) should be introduced from April 2013. It should reward qualifying officers for the skills they use in the four stated priority functions: neighbourhood policing; public order; investigation; and firearms. The EPAA should be £600 per annum, and should be paid monthly. It should be removed when an officer leaves the qualifying role. The EPAA should be abolished when the Specialist Skills Threshold is introduced.
This was (as stated) proposed as an interim payment. The PAT has not accepted it and therefore no-one, even those within the four proposed policing functions, will receive it.
The long term plan to reward specialisms is covered by....
Recommendation 97 – A Specialist Skills Threshold should be introduced at the final pay point of all police officer pay scales up to and including chief superintendent, by 2016 at the latest. It should consist of a rigorous test of the specialist knowledge and skills required in each role and rank. The Police Professional Body should be remitted to devise the test.
...and further described and defined by recommendations 98 and 99. Recommendation 99 is of course the one that feels like the kick in the guts, as it refers to the table (table 9.6 if you're interested), that specifically excludes TFO's. However, the last sentence of recommendation 97 refers to the organisation which will actually decide which specialism can reach the specialist skills threshold and which can't!
Now the Police Professional Body, which has been set up to devise the test as described in Recommendations 97 and 99 is the College of Policing. Headed by the Former head of the ACPO Air Support Committee, Alec Marshall. As that organisation has only just been established then it is very unlikely that NPAS High Command have been able to influence anything, and neither for that matter has anyone else. So I think you are going to need to be patient or trusting.
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Having spent a little time conveying the Boys in Blue, seeing what the guys on the ground have to put up with, the Police are simply not paid enough! period.
For a few pence on the average tax bill we could ensure they are remunerated properly for the work they do. I do not understand politics at all!!!
Keep up the good work guys!!!
DB
For a few pence on the average tax bill we could ensure they are remunerated properly for the work they do. I do not understand politics at all!!!
Keep up the good work guys!!!
DB
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See the Northwest lost another shift or two over the last week due to more sickness, with no one available/willing to step in.
Good, it's one way to let them know that 1 and 7 isn't enough.
Good, it's one way to let them know that 1 and 7 isn't enough.
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The NPAS model is 1 + 8, certainly is in the only existing NPAS region (SE). The rational of the regional model is to fill the gaps when individual bases are off line for whatever reason. The NPAS cloth has been cut to suit a budget and the management freely admit that 1 + 8 won't cover all situations, but would argue that the next base along will cover. It's not ideal, but it's all about the money.
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The NPAS model is 1 + 8
but would argue that the next base along will cover.
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Dog,
It seems to be working pretty much like it did before (in the NPAS region). An extra layer of control, but the mutual aid of neighbouring bases is as before, some bases still waiting for the full compliment of staff to be recruited (that's in hand) before being able to change to the new rosters.
It's in it's infancy, but by design the SE region was always going to be the most difficult to shape into a NPAS region with redundancies, base closures, and 2 base moves, and therefore the one with the most lessons to take forward to the later joining regions.
New relationships are being built and old familiar ones are being renegotiated, try getting a pair of boots or flying suit and you'll find out that things have changed. It will all take some time, but by the time the Met join most things will have been ironed out including base relocations, HR issues, procurement, recruiting and hopefully observers pay!
It seems to be working pretty much like it did before (in the NPAS region). An extra layer of control, but the mutual aid of neighbouring bases is as before, some bases still waiting for the full compliment of staff to be recruited (that's in hand) before being able to change to the new rosters.
It's in it's infancy, but by design the SE region was always going to be the most difficult to shape into a NPAS region with redundancies, base closures, and 2 base moves, and therefore the one with the most lessons to take forward to the later joining regions.
New relationships are being built and old familiar ones are being renegotiated, try getting a pair of boots or flying suit and you'll find out that things have changed. It will all take some time, but by the time the Met join most things will have been ironed out including base relocations, HR issues, procurement, recruiting and hopefully observers pay!
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It seems to be working pretty much like it did before (in the NPAS region).
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If you never had to go offline for sickness you had it pretty good. not saying that was wrong, but perhaps indicative of the way the lack of a joined up system of air support was a mixture of richer and poorer counties (and some without an asu at all). A post code lottery if you will. I've certainly turned up more than once for a late shift to find an observer sick and then driven to the next nearest unit because their pilot has also reported sick just to keep at least one aircraft in the air. It's just the way it was in the poorer regions.
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Of course it isnt, I bow to your knowledge you absolute god of the skies. That is why some fantastic bobbies on the beat have failed miserably as air observers. The job was obviously too easy for them.
During an inner-city pursuit, at night, I would struggle to stay on the maps and provide accurate commentary. An observer requires a very high level of spatial awareness to be successful.
All these years I was wrong. What a knob I am!
During an inner-city pursuit, at night, I would struggle to stay on the maps and provide accurate commentary. An observer requires a very high level of spatial awareness to be successful.
All these years I was wrong. What a knob I am!
Last edited by jayteeto; 21st Jan 2013 at 09:39.
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The "Civvie" Observer / TFO question has been well debated over the years.
Someone might even post a link to previous threads for the benefit
of those that can't be bothered to search for themselves
I have heard though, that NPAS don't ( currently ) have any plans to civilianise the role.
The question of "Specialist" pay for Police Officer TFO's is ( still ) yet to be decided.
I would imagine that if common sense prevails, (
),
then there won't be a sudden exfil of Police Officer TFO's
requiring Police staff to be recruited into the vacant positions.
Someone might even post a link to previous threads for the benefit
of those that can't be bothered to search for themselves
I have heard though, that NPAS don't ( currently ) have any plans to civilianise the role.
The question of "Specialist" pay for Police Officer TFO's is ( still ) yet to be decided.
I would imagine that if common sense prevails, (
),then there won't be a sudden exfil of Police Officer TFO's
requiring Police staff to be recruited into the vacant positions.
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At the risk of feeding the troll, Ye Olde Pilot (or should that be Pilote?)
Apart from, years of experience of Policing on the ground in a variety of fields, thus bringing valuable knowledge of how ground units operate. The observers are the job!
At the risk of annoying every Police line pilot on here, and I have no intention of lessening their contribution to the role.
It's a Police aircraft, its there to do a Police role. Without a Police person on board its a bit pointless the aircraft being there. The Pilot takes us from A to B in a safe manner and keeps us safe throughout the flight. The Police do the vital work of communicating the picture from above verbally to the units on the ground in a manner that they can understand.
And YOP, having worked the ground I would not say it's easier, just different. There are lot's of policing roles I wouldn't/couldn't do, likewise there are lots of Police Officers that couldn't/wouldn't do my job.
Once again apologies to any Police pilots on here, I do not mean to lessen your contribution in any way.
Troll, come out come out wherever you are
If it's not a rude question what exactly does the observer do to make the job so
indispensable?
It ain't rocket science and a lot easier than a plod on the beat.
indispensable?
It ain't rocket science and a lot easier than a plod on the beat.
At the risk of annoying every Police line pilot on here, and I have no intention of lessening their contribution to the role.
It's a Police aircraft, its there to do a Police role. Without a Police person on board its a bit pointless the aircraft being there. The Pilot takes us from A to B in a safe manner and keeps us safe throughout the flight. The Police do the vital work of communicating the picture from above verbally to the units on the ground in a manner that they can understand.
And YOP, having worked the ground I would not say it's easier, just different. There are lot's of policing roles I wouldn't/couldn't do, likewise there are lots of Police Officers that couldn't/wouldn't do my job.
Once again apologies to any Police pilots on here, I do not mean to lessen your contribution in any way.
Troll, come out come out wherever you are
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Once again apologies to any Police pilots on here, I do not mean to lessen your contribution in any way.
It's a Police aircraft, its there to do a Police role. Without a Police person on board its a bit pointless the aircraft being there. The Pilot takes us from A to B in a safe manner and keeps us safe throughout the flight. The Police do the vital work of communicating the picture from above verbally to the units on the ground in a manner that they can understand.
In the perfect world, the police helicopter would be staffed by a police officer pilot and police TFO's - the end!
In reality anyone who qualified as a civvy pilot wouldn't be working as a police officer on police officer wages, I would suggest, especially after slogging their guts out to do CPL/IR exams!! And so - a civvy pilot is required to fly the police helicopter.
TFO's - a thorny issue, but an all civilian crew could also do the job. Provided they were trained and capable in the first instance, they could do the job of a police officer in carrying out the role of a TFO. Now I know this is a very very thorny issue (having lived thru it for many years), but I know it works because I did trials involving paramedics doing the role of TFO's and the person in question was exceptionally good at doing it. Head and shoulders above the average police TFO.
NOW - for political and motivational reasons, police officers currently carry out the responsibilities of the TFO.
In answer to your direct question old pilot: The pilot alone cannot do both jobs (fly and TFO) too much work - massive overload, flt safety blah blah. There is an incontrovertible requirement to instal atleast one other on board to systems manage. Whoever does the job of a TFO, MUST know what they are doing, they must have good communication skills, must have adequate SA capabilities and must be competent IT operators. They should also be familiar with police procedures. It so happens that police officers (easily capable of responding to the above) are employed for the reasons given earlier.
The suggestion that ONLY police officers can do the job because of their 'savvy nature' is a myth as our trial proved outright.
OldPilot - be not surprised to learn that TFO's are a very competent and necessary essential in airborne police ops.
In reality anyone who qualified as a civvy pilot wouldn't be working as a police officer on police officer wages, I would suggest, especially after slogging their guts out to do CPL/IR exams!! And so - a civvy pilot is required to fly the police helicopter.
TFO's - a thorny issue, but an all civilian crew could also do the job. Provided they were trained and capable in the first instance, they could do the job of a police officer in carrying out the role of a TFO. Now I know this is a very very thorny issue (having lived thru it for many years), but I know it works because I did trials involving paramedics doing the role of TFO's and the person in question was exceptionally good at doing it. Head and shoulders above the average police TFO.
NOW - for political and motivational reasons, police officers currently carry out the responsibilities of the TFO.
In answer to your direct question old pilot: The pilot alone cannot do both jobs (fly and TFO) too much work - massive overload, flt safety blah blah. There is an incontrovertible requirement to instal atleast one other on board to systems manage. Whoever does the job of a TFO, MUST know what they are doing, they must have good communication skills, must have adequate SA capabilities and must be competent IT operators. They should also be familiar with police procedures. It so happens that police officers (easily capable of responding to the above) are employed for the reasons given earlier.
The suggestion that ONLY police officers can do the job because of their 'savvy nature' is a myth as our trial proved outright.
OldPilot - be not surprised to learn that TFO's are a very competent and necessary essential in airborne police ops.