The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H

[Vie sans frontieres]

'Why do we need rearcrew?'

'Why does a qualified pilot need to keep training?'

'Why can't an NHS paramedic do shifts as a winchman without training - it seems he just hangs there.'

Are these Thomas coupling's consultants that are well versed in SAR doctrine or just the guys that they'll be answering to?

What a balls up this is going to be and as chopabeefer suggests, a balls up that is going to lead to massive corner cutting and the dismantling of a quality of service that has been refined over decades. Where are the winning bidders going to source their personnel from when the drip feed of full-time SAR professionals from the military dries up? Training from scratch is a lengthy process (years, not months) that involves selecting the right people and taking them to their limits of capacity to see how they perform.

[4thright]

VSF (& Cbeef) I don't think it really matters if some senior types in the Dft arrived at Valley and demonstrated their ignorance. It seems to me that the visit was all about improving their understanding and hopefully that's what the visit did. Removing the ignorance of top neddies and civil servants is no bad thing.
I just don't buy this emotive crap about "lives will be lost" etc. Look at the likely winners from who remain in the competition. It's these companies who will actually deliver the service, and 3 of them have clearly demonstrated their ability to do it. This is what matters, not some ignorance shown by top neddies from London! As for the longer term, any of the likely winners have the capacity to set up a training pipeline to meet the gap of no more military leavers, and don't forget one of the beauties of a long term civvy run service is that many who join the service at the start will be there at the end - no 2 to 3 year posting rosta to mess people and experience about!

[[email protected]]

Jungliebeefer - is it unreasonable that the Service who has been the main provider of UKSAR helicopters, views it as a primary role instead of secondary, has more SAR aircraft, crews, equipment and completes more SAROPs every year - has a claim to be the best?

It is a question of ethos and those of us in RAF SAR believe ours is unrivalled - our commitment to training (that element of SAR which detractors say is gold-plated and too expensive) stands head and shoulders above the rest.

Now it is fair to say that 80% of SAR jobs can be done without all the bells and whistles - hence the belief that SAR can be done as a secondary duty by pretty much anyone with a helicopter.

It is the other 20% which are on a sliding scale from slightly interesting to F*** Me which need the right crews, equipment and above all training to perform safely and efficiently.

Unfortunately it looks all too easy to design a a UK SAR system for the future which looks cheaper because much of that 20% is conveniently ignored.

[Al-bert]

Many years ago, when Walter Wessex was Queen of the skies, I was asked by a member of the House of Lords Defence Study Group why we needed a navigator to operate the hoist, and if the pilot couldn't see downwards why didn't 'they' just fit a glass bottom to the aircraft? When I pointed out that the engines might obscure the view he helpfully suggested that they could be positioned 'down the back'! He was led away to the mess bar by another Lord - seems some things just don't change

[jungliebeefer]

Crab@

We have all sat in the crew room and bitched and moaned about the other services. However, I would hope that this bluster also belies a mutual respect and understanding that we are all professional aircrew who are fundamentally good at what we do ... To say that your way is the best and to automatically discount all other ways of skinning the cat is blinkered to say the least.

The main savings from military SAR will not be from training but from all the other areas where operating the Sea King on a Military Release demand a high number of personnel and maintenance hours, vice operating a modern aircraft. The S92 can maintain availability rates far in excess of the ageing King with 3 engineers on shift. Daily training rates do not differ from the military with an allowance of 4 hrs per day. I believe that the MCA crews would take task with your inference that they are only able to carry out effective SAR in the 80% of routine missions!!

The big piece for the future that has been rightly identified is the transition to NVG - again there are ex military experienced NVG operators already working on the solution ...

I'm not saying that there are not hurdles ahead but to completely put your head in the sand and say that it can't be done as effectively and safely (but maybe differently) to RN or RAF SAR is simply wrong ... the people that will make this work will be experienced civilian, ex RN and RAF crews.

I fully understand that those of you that have been involved in RAF SAR for your whole military career regard it as a primary mission - but again you need to look outside of your own world to see that the resource scarce services must prioritise ... rightly for capabilities that support a combat. Unfortunate for military SAR but thats the bottom line...

[[email protected]]

Jungliebeefer - everyone knows the Sea King is old and tired and costs a lot to maintain but to claim big savings will be made by buying V expensive new toys off the shelf just because you can use less engineers is simply not true.

Then add the expense of reinventing a SAR service that already exists (RAF and RN) under the banner of DfT and, as a taxpayer, I have to ask why not just give the military new aircraft and crack on. The military is already using civilian aircraft with military crews and it will become more and more widespread over the next few years.

The dogma about warfighting first has reduced many areas of the UK Mil to theatre-specific forces with little corporate memory of anything other than Afghanistan. Anyone in SH or jungly force doing EW training for example? If you keep chopping out what is not needed for Afghanistan then we will end up in few years (if we ever withdraw from there) with a very lopsided capability and a huge training burden to recover the lost skills.

So, leave mil SAR in the mil, give us the new aircraft promised for son of SARH and stop wasting taxpayers money reinventing something that doesn't need reinventing.

[Ray Stawynch]

Crab,

Please would you clarify, EXACTLY, how you quantify that RAFSAR's training is "head and shoulders" above all other's stringent, pertinent, accountable training.

Do you allude to knowing ANYTHING of the aforementioned training regimes?

Or was this yet another pot shot at belittling those of us that work professionally, diligently, currently in post?

Ray

[4thright]

Well said RS - too much lack of real understanding about how civ SAR training works against what the mil have traditionally done.
I support Crab in that there was a chance for doing something more innovative under MoD ownership and its a shame that too many working there didn't give it another chance after the PFI was chopped.
Crab is right too about dogma in the MoD about fighting the unwinnable war and what the aftermath will be, with many careers dependent on the faithful following the present mantra.
Let's not forget either that military SAR was created around UK shores precisley because it was operating in a combat environment with many brave acts during WW2, (or could have been had WW3 ever happened). Its easy to convince ourselves that such a direct threat around our shores may never happen again. If so then we might regret the day we civilianised some key helicopter capability dottted around the country at high readiness. I am also intrigued to know what the RN will do in providing an experienced SAR helo capability off the new carriers. Anyone for civ S92 detachments on HMS QE then?

[jungliebeefer]

Crab@

Junglie force already 90% withdrawn from Afghan and back at sea doing the Amphib thing. I'm not saying that I like whats happened to the forces over the years ... the ability to have a great second line tour at Culdrose or in Prestwick will disappear and the RN will be all the worse for it - thats the world that has been forced upon us. However, you need to get your head around the fact, that regardless of how much you dislike it, its not MIL SAR its SAR ...

[[email protected]]

Ray:

1. The training stats we are required to complete every month/quarter/year - this is not just one deck, one sit and one drum per month to keep 'current' but a wide range of disciplines day and night.

2. There is an embedded training team pilot/radop/winchman in each flight.

3. There is a roving training team who carry out annual cat checks and further training who visit each flight once per month.

4. There is a dedicated Standards team who check each flights operational effectiveness every 2 years and carry out no-notice Opevals at each flight.

5. Our simulator training (6 monthly) includes SAREX's and NVG as well as all the emergency handling sorties.

6. We have an ongoing training scheme to take Co-pilots to Op Captain - not just a captain's course when a slot becomes available.

In addition there are other training exercises including things like windfarm rescues, MRT, lifeboat, CG, beach rescue.

Is that enough?

I'm not saying civsar crews don't train or belittling their capability but those who haven't been involved in some of the night overland SAROPs the SAR Force have experienced are far too quick to dismiss our capability as 'just requires a set of NVG on an S92 and crack on'.

Iron

i reckon there will be a huge saving in maint costs actually

and an enormous capital outlay to get the aircraft in the first place.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Crab,

The capital outlay would surely still be required whether crewed by civilians or mil? As you yourself state the sea king is past it's best so a new machine is required.

SW

[John Eacott]

Crab,

Genuine question, how does RAF SAR training compare to the RN, specifically 771 NAS? Surely they are covering the same/similar tasking as you, same/similar equipment, and they certainly feature often in our GAPAN awards nominations.

Historically, RN tasking would include Planeguard & SAR for carrier ops which, whilst often a secondary tasking for an ASW squadron, would be as advanced and professional as could be achieved. With intense carrier ops around the world and Ship's Flight covering each and every FW launch and recovery, both day and night, ASW squadrons backing up that task plus covering any SAR task within the operating region there was a wealth of knowledge and ability. Indeed, auto hover was developed back in the 60s for ASW and came to a high level of maturity with the Sea King in (front line service) 1970, and incorporated for the first time a 10% authority hover trim for the rear crew when winching with auto hover.

Techniques and equipment have advanced dramatically in the ensuing years but it still remains an important element of the RN background in SAR.

Comparing what the UK CAA allows for Civ SAR and 'other countries', there should be no justifiable reason to deny 24 hour/all weather SAR by Civ operators in the UK. Australia has managed for many years to provide this service, often Single Pilot with qualified crewman left seat, on NVG, over water, overland, day/night, (winching too) all with "civilian" operators. I include the State Police Air Wings, who are often the primary responders especially on the East Coast states. They all have their own training and crew progression well established, with relatively few being ex Mil: these days they have their own 'Corporate knowledge' and little reliance on getting the military to do it for them. In fact the military seldom get called for civil SAR, and they don't have a primary tasking nor the equipment to cover it.

[4thright]

A good list of RAF training activities there Crab. but what makes you think something similar cannot and will not be delivered as part of the new contract?

JE - thanks for reminding me of how the RN traditionally did carrier SAR. My point is that with the removal of all SAR training and experience from the military, how is the RN going to deliver even this level of SAR capability. I presumefrom any Merlins or Wildcats working off the carriers. Some people on here may not like it, but in this litigative 21st century the MoD has to be seen to be fulfilling its full duty of care by making its best efforts, especially in trying to rescue those at hazard such as JSF pilots who have crashed off a carrier. Suggesting it will be done ad hoc by inexperienced Merlin or other helo crews does not seem to meet that criterion.

Working in the civilian helo world can focus your thoughts on this type of thing! Sorry.

[Tourist]

Originally Posted by 4thright

Suggesting it will be done ad hoc by inexperienced Merlin or other helo crews does not seem to meet that criterion

I just love the Crab lack of understanding of RN SAR

RN crews maintain SAR cover on every ship with helicopters 24/7 wherever they are worldwide.

That is not amateur or inexperienced or ad hoc.
That is professional.

SAR is just a secondary role, and a limited one at that.

It is all just posh hovering.

[Spanish Waltzer]

I am surprised that there is an opinion out there that as soon as uk national SAR becomes a contractor delivered solution any ability for a trained mil crew to effect a rescue will be lost. As I understand, every uk mil helo (apart from apache) will have a winch on the side. Therfore every mil crew will at some point in their training be provided with the skills to utilise it. No doubt like other flying skills there will also be a currency requirement to ensure the skills do not fade.

Yes the merlin crew providing plane guard may not be a dedicated sar crew but they will still be capable, competent and trained to effect a recovery. Indeed as the availability of mil crews who have completed a SAR tour diminishes, the need to deliver winch training, as a secondary role, for rotary crews of all colours will increase. Funnily enough, as with all training, this will evolve and the knowledge will continue to be passed on from generation to generation. Nobody, not even crab is irreplaceable!

Am I the only one who sees the fact that the 'heads of sheds' are asking basic questions a sign that they are actually prepared to question the status quo? I have no doubt they were given passionate answers to such questions from those they asked and will make informed decisions when the time comes. Surely better to visit and ask 'silly' questions than not visit and make incorrect assumptions?

Similarly, when it comes to scrutinising the bids, I think you'll find there will be an expert panel of experience from the RN, RAF and civil SAR providers made available to assist those 'accountants'.

SW

[4thright]

Seems to me SW that if the MoD crews are going to be so well capable of SAR in the future, they are not in fact giving the role up! So why all this hassle in giving up the UK based capability. Surely it would be better to keep a dedicated outfit which delivers both at home and can ensure the deployable crews are well trained too. Not that I want to lose a job opportunity you understand
There is so much inconsistency in this debate,and Tourist, I dont think anyone has been suggesting that the present RN crews dont deliver very professional SAR. I am questioning where it might be in the future when daily SAR delivery in the UK and having the associated trained crews in the RN and RAF no longer exists. SW seems to think all will be wel, but I cant see that (yet).

[Ray Stawynch]

Crab,

Many thanks for that terribly comprehensive reply.

I did also ask whether you alluded to knowing anything of the training regimes of Others.

If so, you might not be as self righteous in feeling that RAFSAR training far exceeds those of the rest of us who, again, work stoically in maintaining a professional level of competency in all aspects of SAR currency.

Ray

[Al-bert]

yer aye doomed, doomed I tell yer!

[[email protected]]

Ray - some of the guys who provide your training are ex-RAF colleagues of mine

4th right

A good list of RAF training activities there Crab. but what makes you think something similar cannot and will not be delivered as part of the new contract?

cost! The new SAR service may well be like a Citroen - built down to a price rather than up to a standard. Who will police its standards and levels of training, currency and competency? The CAA? with all their expert knowledge of SAR?

I don't think there will be a significant influx of mil pilots into the new contract unless it is specified somewhere (like the last one was). I expect big civilian companies like Bond and Bristow will recruit internally first and everyone who has ever done a SAR tour in the past will throw their hats into the ring. Inevitably priority will be given to those with seniority in the company rather than ex-mil people with current and relevant experience - I guess it all comes down to what is specified in the contract.

Spanish - all military aircraft with a winch??? you are having a laugh! Our SH bretheren have more than enough kit to worry about needing to be serviceable and the winch will be the first thing that gets red lined in the F700. We also get to see how poor winching can be when people don't practise on a regular basis.

[jimf671]

Who will police its standards and levels of training, currency and competency? The CAA? with all their expert knowledge of SAR?

___ Yes. ___