Are military trained Helicopter pilots overrated?
It is Fort Wolters
I gave up reading the article---hopefully you will have a proof reader and professional type setters to make it readable.
I gave up reading the article---hopefully you will have a proof reader and professional type setters to make it readable.
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Would not the VERY BEST helo pilots be test pilots at large helo manufacturers? I don't think they'd trust their new test beds to nothing but the best since everything is riding on those pilots abilites and skills.
I'll assume that then and would wonder if the big 3 or 4 makers would be able to tell us if all their pilots are military trained or does anyone here know?
I'd personaly have to say that former military-trained pilots are best since they were trained on my dime, got the best available and worked under more stressful conditions than most civies (bullets nipping at them and all).
Whadaya think?!
I'll assume that then and would wonder if the big 3 or 4 makers would be able to tell us if all their pilots are military trained or does anyone here know?
I'd personaly have to say that former military-trained pilots are best since they were trained on my dime, got the best available and worked under more stressful conditions than most civies (bullets nipping at them and all).
Whadaya think?!
I don't usually preach with unsolicited advice, but as you asked nicely -
Some military pilots are better than other military pilots, some civilian pilots are better than other civilian pilots, some civilian pilots are better than some military pilots & some military pilots are better than some civilian pilots.
A good pilot with minimal training will always be a good pilot, & a bad pilot with lots of training will always be a bad pilot. My philosophy - "Recruit for attitude, train for experience".
Some military pilots are better than other military pilots, some civilian pilots are better than other civilian pilots, some civilian pilots are better than some military pilots & some military pilots are better than some civilian pilots.
A good pilot with minimal training will always be a good pilot, & a bad pilot with lots of training will always be a bad pilot. My philosophy - "Recruit for attitude, train for experience".
heliduck---Not a truer word spoken.
I had this on my hard drive, not sure where it came from or who wrote it:
I had this on my hard drive, not sure where it came from or who wrote it:
CAUTION!!! If you have no sense of humor, take yourself too seriously, have a big ego, penis envy, or low self esteem...please do not read the following. Additionally, if you do not know the words satire, sarcasm, irony, amphibian, areola, logorrhea, phrontistery, and the all important boobies...please do not read the following.
Let's see both sides for a second.
I've read so many of these debates and I'm tired of this not being said correctly. You may not like it if you are a military only 'pilot', but that's tough.
Civilian trained pilots have smaller egos than military trained pilots. There, it has been written.
Why is that? It is because the civilian pilot was trained in the real world. The civilian pilot was trained in the most realistic aviation curriculum in the world. The civilian pilot had more stress to deal with, more uncertainty in their future, (after all the money I've spent will I get a job to make it worthwhile?) more time management to balance, (what with working a full time job to pay for flight school) and had to compete with their peers just to get a job to pay for it.
Let's flip the roles around for a second. The military guy was probably a guy who either didn't know that he could go through a civi school or couldn't muster up the initiative to put himself through it. He heard about how cool it was to be a military from one of his zit faced, long-haired, fat ass friends (or from watching Top Gun) and went to check that out. He bought the line of crap the recruiter sold him. He spent his measly little flight time flying idiot circles around some craphole airport (Rucker) with a 22 year old, broken down 20...I mean, OH58 and a 65 year old CFI...I mean IP (talk about the blind leading the blind). Between the two of them they couldn't disarm an old lady with a bamboo cane. (Although when watching them fly you'd think that's what they were doing)
Now that he is a big time military aviator with 150 hours of flight time, he goes for the PIC rating, so he can "actually fly the aircraft". All of this is while he lives on the base, and goes down to the local sleaze-hole so he can brag about what an important person he is. Now he is the blind man leading another. Oh sure, he can spit all kinds of army code out. "You're in violation of army code 5 sec. 3e paragraph 99". Wow, he is a wealth of rote memorization now. He can't apply any of it because all he has ever done is fly maroon rotations around aforementioned airport.
Back to our civilian pilot. After 12-24 months of academics, flight training, and professional development in the real world, (only took him that long because he was working full time in addition to flight school) he graduates flight school and EARNS (not buys--DPE's are way too expensive these days} the wings that have been on his mind since he was 4 feet high. Not only is he a flight school graduate, he is a pilot (not a damn arrogant military aviator). Oh yeah, all of his training was conducted in a weed eater with blades, so he will be well prepared to fly the under-powered over-loaded machines that are a reality in the civilian world today.
Now comes the cool part: transition to a turbine aircraft and assignment to a part 135, or utility or EMS operation anywhere in the world. In stark contrast, after the military blow-hard leaves the little Rucker Boy's Club B.S., he...can't get a job because he knows more than the chief pilots and D.O.'s that he's interviewing with. I am in awe!
The civilian pilot becomes...well, pretty much whatever he wants. You see, he has a choice in his destiny. Not just what he's told to do. He goes to the canyon for his first turbine job. After months of doing his job and impressing his bosses with his ability, good attitude and lack of ego he achieves...well, line pilot status. Which when you think about it is really the same thing he achieved when he passed his 135 ride. For you military guys that means (drum roll) he's...fully mission capable. Being a sharp guy and a good stick, he draws the duty of training pilot, check airman or all around 'git er done' pilot. If you don't know what that means, you are the military jackass I am portraying. It is the...oh, never mind you'll never get it anyway.
Anyway, now, our aviator is now planning daily missions with hard times, lots of MVFR over challenging terrain. Complex mission planning for day, night, NVG, external load and dodging multi-ship military flights as well. After a strong first year in his company, our aviator has impressed the people who pay the bills and has earned a raise. No small feat in itself. He will now undergo a rigorous evaluation (every day for the rest of his career)his evaluation will consist of complex mission planning, unplanned changes and emergencies, and dodging a flight of 8 military aircraft on a night mission through the mountains (you didn't know they were there, because they just can't seem to figure out the radios. You will never know your 'mission'. Your 'mission' changes from day to day. You are expected be able to do whatever comes up. From VIP to precision longline. I can't even list all of the facets of this day to day on the job test. This pilot will have to pass on his first try. There are no second chances. Why, because if you fail it means you f**ked up and died. If not, you just might have what it takes to get ahead in the civi world.
If you are a military only 'pilot' (sorry, Aviator) I don't care, but never go off at the mouth to civilian pilots about real flying, or telling your version of a war story. It won't work and doesn't impress us. Until you have done a flight from A-Z without having all your decisions made for you by your 'superiors'.
You military pukes haven't earned the respect you think you deserve. Show some damn humility the next time you are face to face with a civilian pilot.
Get over yourself douche bag.
I've read so many of these debates and I'm tired of this not being said correctly. You may not like it if you are a civilian "only" pilot, but that's tough.
Military trained pilots are superior to civilian trained pilots. There, it has been written.
Why is that? It is because the military pilot was trained by the best instructors in the world. The military pilot was trained in the most demanding aviation curriculum in the world. The military pilot had more stress to deal with, more uncertainty in their future, more time management to balance, and had to compete with their peers just to graduate.
Let's flip the roles around for a second. The civilian guy was probably a silver-spooner from a family with some money who sent him through a fixed-wing program of some sort first. He heard about how cool it was to fly a helicopter from one of his zit faced, long-haired, fat ass friends and went to check that out next. He had (Daddy had) paid for his fixed-wing ratings, so this helicopter whim was just an add-on to his ticket. He spent his measly little flight time flying idiot circles around some craphole airport with a 22 year old, 200 hour CFI (talk about the blind leading the blind). Between the two of them they couldn't disarm an old lady with a bamboo cane.
Now that he is a big time commercial pilot with 200 hours of flight time, he goes for the CFI rating, so he can "build time". All of this is while he lives with Mom and Dad, or works for Daddy's business somewhere and lives with roommates. Now he is the blind man leading another. Oh sure, he can spit all kinds of regs out. Parts 61, 91, 135, 141. Wow, he is a wealth of rote memorization now. He can't apply any of it because all he has ever done is fly not so smart person rotations around aforementioned airport.
Back to our military pilot. After 12-24 months of academics, flight training, and professional development as an officer in the armed forces, he graduates flight school and EARNS (not buys) the wings that have been on his mind since he was 4 feet high. Not only is he a flight school graduate, he is an aviator (not a damn R-22 Pilot). Oh yeah, all of his training was conducted in turbine powered helicopters, not a weed eater with 2 rotor blades.
Now comes the cool part: transition to a combat aircraft and assignment to a combat aviation unit anywhere in the world. In stark contrast, after the civilian blow-hard leaves the little 141 BS, he goes to work taking pictures of boats for Boatpix. I am in awe!
The military pilot becomes a UH-60 Blackhawk Aviator, or maybe flies the AH-64D Longbow. He goes to Germany for his first assignment. After months of training and climbing the readiness level ladder, he achieves RL-1 and is fully mission capable. Being a sharp guy and a good stick, he draws the duty of flying PI for the ADC(M). If you don't know what that means, you are the civilian loser I am portraying. It is the Assistant Division Commander, Maneuver. Anyway, our aviator is now planning daily missions with hard times, lots of IFR legs. Complex mission planning for day, night, NVG, IMC, and multi-ship, as well. After a strong first year in his unit, our aviator has impressed his IPs and commander and has earned the right to be evaluated as a Pilot-in-Command. No small feat in itself. He will now undergo a rigorous evaluation (not pay some 90 year old DPE $500). This evaluation will consist of complex mission planning, unplanned changes and emergencies, leading a flight of 8 aircraft on a night mission through the mountains, or for a time on target LRS-D insertion. The aviator will be tested on everything from calls for fire to Instruments. From border crossings to chemical warfare. From ICAO regulations to in depth systems knowledge of his aircraft. I can't even list all of the facets of this evaluation. This aviator will probably not pass on his first try, despite days and weeks of studying, planning, and a strong execution. Why, because a unit with strict standards probably wants to find out how he will deal with it. If he bounces back and says he is going to work even harder and keeps a good attitude, he will be back on the list in no time. If he gives up and just relaxes to be a PI, the evaluation will really have done its job.
If you are a civilian only pilot, I don't care, but never go off at the mouth to military aviators about real flying, or telling your version of a war story. It won't work and doesn't impress us. Until you have done a table 10 with 8 aircraft and an armored troop of M-1s, flying system with 30 knot winds, you can't talk. Until you have flown at night with NVGs on Christmas Eve through the mountains in Kosovo, Macedonia, and Albania with the Secretary of Defense aboard your aircraft with 6 other Blackhawks and 4 AH-64s as escort, while the snow is falling like crazy out, shut your hole. Until you have slept in a sleeping bag under the tailboom of an OH-58D behind your sister Troop's Bradley fighting vehicle in the middle of the Mojave Desert, shut the hell up.
You civilian slimes haven't earned your way. We have. Show some damn respect the next time you are face to face with a military aviator.
Let's see both sides for a second.
I've read so many of these debates and I'm tired of this not being said correctly. You may not like it if you are a military only 'pilot', but that's tough.
Civilian trained pilots have smaller egos than military trained pilots. There, it has been written.
Why is that? It is because the civilian pilot was trained in the real world. The civilian pilot was trained in the most realistic aviation curriculum in the world. The civilian pilot had more stress to deal with, more uncertainty in their future, (after all the money I've spent will I get a job to make it worthwhile?) more time management to balance, (what with working a full time job to pay for flight school) and had to compete with their peers just to get a job to pay for it.
Let's flip the roles around for a second. The military guy was probably a guy who either didn't know that he could go through a civi school or couldn't muster up the initiative to put himself through it. He heard about how cool it was to be a military from one of his zit faced, long-haired, fat ass friends (or from watching Top Gun) and went to check that out. He bought the line of crap the recruiter sold him. He spent his measly little flight time flying idiot circles around some craphole airport (Rucker) with a 22 year old, broken down 20...I mean, OH58 and a 65 year old CFI...I mean IP (talk about the blind leading the blind). Between the two of them they couldn't disarm an old lady with a bamboo cane. (Although when watching them fly you'd think that's what they were doing)
Now that he is a big time military aviator with 150 hours of flight time, he goes for the PIC rating, so he can "actually fly the aircraft". All of this is while he lives on the base, and goes down to the local sleaze-hole so he can brag about what an important person he is. Now he is the blind man leading another. Oh sure, he can spit all kinds of army code out. "You're in violation of army code 5 sec. 3e paragraph 99". Wow, he is a wealth of rote memorization now. He can't apply any of it because all he has ever done is fly maroon rotations around aforementioned airport.
Back to our civilian pilot. After 12-24 months of academics, flight training, and professional development in the real world, (only took him that long because he was working full time in addition to flight school) he graduates flight school and EARNS (not buys--DPE's are way too expensive these days} the wings that have been on his mind since he was 4 feet high. Not only is he a flight school graduate, he is a pilot (not a damn arrogant military aviator). Oh yeah, all of his training was conducted in a weed eater with blades, so he will be well prepared to fly the under-powered over-loaded machines that are a reality in the civilian world today.
Now comes the cool part: transition to a turbine aircraft and assignment to a part 135, or utility or EMS operation anywhere in the world. In stark contrast, after the military blow-hard leaves the little Rucker Boy's Club B.S., he...can't get a job because he knows more than the chief pilots and D.O.'s that he's interviewing with. I am in awe!
The civilian pilot becomes...well, pretty much whatever he wants. You see, he has a choice in his destiny. Not just what he's told to do. He goes to the canyon for his first turbine job. After months of doing his job and impressing his bosses with his ability, good attitude and lack of ego he achieves...well, line pilot status. Which when you think about it is really the same thing he achieved when he passed his 135 ride. For you military guys that means (drum roll) he's...fully mission capable. Being a sharp guy and a good stick, he draws the duty of training pilot, check airman or all around 'git er done' pilot. If you don't know what that means, you are the military jackass I am portraying. It is the...oh, never mind you'll never get it anyway.
Anyway, now, our aviator is now planning daily missions with hard times, lots of MVFR over challenging terrain. Complex mission planning for day, night, NVG, external load and dodging multi-ship military flights as well. After a strong first year in his company, our aviator has impressed the people who pay the bills and has earned a raise. No small feat in itself. He will now undergo a rigorous evaluation (every day for the rest of his career)his evaluation will consist of complex mission planning, unplanned changes and emergencies, and dodging a flight of 8 military aircraft on a night mission through the mountains (you didn't know they were there, because they just can't seem to figure out the radios. You will never know your 'mission'. Your 'mission' changes from day to day. You are expected be able to do whatever comes up. From VIP to precision longline. I can't even list all of the facets of this day to day on the job test. This pilot will have to pass on his first try. There are no second chances. Why, because if you fail it means you f**ked up and died. If not, you just might have what it takes to get ahead in the civi world.
If you are a military only 'pilot' (sorry, Aviator) I don't care, but never go off at the mouth to civilian pilots about real flying, or telling your version of a war story. It won't work and doesn't impress us. Until you have done a flight from A-Z without having all your decisions made for you by your 'superiors'.
You military pukes haven't earned the respect you think you deserve. Show some damn humility the next time you are face to face with a civilian pilot.
Get over yourself douche bag.
I've read so many of these debates and I'm tired of this not being said correctly. You may not like it if you are a civilian "only" pilot, but that's tough.
Military trained pilots are superior to civilian trained pilots. There, it has been written.
Why is that? It is because the military pilot was trained by the best instructors in the world. The military pilot was trained in the most demanding aviation curriculum in the world. The military pilot had more stress to deal with, more uncertainty in their future, more time management to balance, and had to compete with their peers just to graduate.
Let's flip the roles around for a second. The civilian guy was probably a silver-spooner from a family with some money who sent him through a fixed-wing program of some sort first. He heard about how cool it was to fly a helicopter from one of his zit faced, long-haired, fat ass friends and went to check that out next. He had (Daddy had) paid for his fixed-wing ratings, so this helicopter whim was just an add-on to his ticket. He spent his measly little flight time flying idiot circles around some craphole airport with a 22 year old, 200 hour CFI (talk about the blind leading the blind). Between the two of them they couldn't disarm an old lady with a bamboo cane.
Now that he is a big time commercial pilot with 200 hours of flight time, he goes for the CFI rating, so he can "build time". All of this is while he lives with Mom and Dad, or works for Daddy's business somewhere and lives with roommates. Now he is the blind man leading another. Oh sure, he can spit all kinds of regs out. Parts 61, 91, 135, 141. Wow, he is a wealth of rote memorization now. He can't apply any of it because all he has ever done is fly not so smart person rotations around aforementioned airport.
Back to our military pilot. After 12-24 months of academics, flight training, and professional development as an officer in the armed forces, he graduates flight school and EARNS (not buys) the wings that have been on his mind since he was 4 feet high. Not only is he a flight school graduate, he is an aviator (not a damn R-22 Pilot). Oh yeah, all of his training was conducted in turbine powered helicopters, not a weed eater with 2 rotor blades.
Now comes the cool part: transition to a combat aircraft and assignment to a combat aviation unit anywhere in the world. In stark contrast, after the civilian blow-hard leaves the little 141 BS, he goes to work taking pictures of boats for Boatpix. I am in awe!
The military pilot becomes a UH-60 Blackhawk Aviator, or maybe flies the AH-64D Longbow. He goes to Germany for his first assignment. After months of training and climbing the readiness level ladder, he achieves RL-1 and is fully mission capable. Being a sharp guy and a good stick, he draws the duty of flying PI for the ADC(M). If you don't know what that means, you are the civilian loser I am portraying. It is the Assistant Division Commander, Maneuver. Anyway, our aviator is now planning daily missions with hard times, lots of IFR legs. Complex mission planning for day, night, NVG, IMC, and multi-ship, as well. After a strong first year in his unit, our aviator has impressed his IPs and commander and has earned the right to be evaluated as a Pilot-in-Command. No small feat in itself. He will now undergo a rigorous evaluation (not pay some 90 year old DPE $500). This evaluation will consist of complex mission planning, unplanned changes and emergencies, leading a flight of 8 aircraft on a night mission through the mountains, or for a time on target LRS-D insertion. The aviator will be tested on everything from calls for fire to Instruments. From border crossings to chemical warfare. From ICAO regulations to in depth systems knowledge of his aircraft. I can't even list all of the facets of this evaluation. This aviator will probably not pass on his first try, despite days and weeks of studying, planning, and a strong execution. Why, because a unit with strict standards probably wants to find out how he will deal with it. If he bounces back and says he is going to work even harder and keeps a good attitude, he will be back on the list in no time. If he gives up and just relaxes to be a PI, the evaluation will really have done its job.
If you are a civilian only pilot, I don't care, but never go off at the mouth to military aviators about real flying, or telling your version of a war story. It won't work and doesn't impress us. Until you have done a table 10 with 8 aircraft and an armored troop of M-1s, flying system with 30 knot winds, you can't talk. Until you have flown at night with NVGs on Christmas Eve through the mountains in Kosovo, Macedonia, and Albania with the Secretary of Defense aboard your aircraft with 6 other Blackhawks and 4 AH-64s as escort, while the snow is falling like crazy out, shut your hole. Until you have slept in a sleeping bag under the tailboom of an OH-58D behind your sister Troop's Bradley fighting vehicle in the middle of the Mojave Desert, shut the hell up.
You civilian slimes haven't earned your way. We have. Show some damn respect the next time you are face to face with a military aviator.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Gordy,
You should have left it on your hard drive or swapped it for a decent virus.
Anyone who thinks a rotary pilot is a one dimensional beast who can be defined by his/her training route is either (a) not a rotary pilot, or (b) a complete buffoon.
Both the civil and military arenas have access to plenty of clowns and knob-jockeys, don't encourage them by proliferating this nonsense.
You should have left it on your hard drive or swapped it for a decent virus.
Anyone who thinks a rotary pilot is a one dimensional beast who can be defined by his/her training route is either (a) not a rotary pilot, or (b) a complete buffoon.
Both the civil and military arenas have access to plenty of clowns and knob-jockeys, don't encourage them by proliferating this nonsense.
Two's in---Maybe you failed to read the very first lines.....
I thought it was quite funny. And yes I agree with you:
CAUTION!!! If you have no sense of humor, take yourself too seriously, have a big ego, penis envy, or low self esteem...please do not read the following. Additionally, if you do not know the words satire, sarcasm, irony, amphibian, areola, logorrhea, phrontistery, and the all important boobies...please do not read the following.
Both the civil and military arenas have access to plenty of clowns and knob-jockeys,
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C'mon, it depends on the person. I've seen highly proficient pilots from both backgrounds. Don't cast stereotypes. There is no general rule.
I'm ex-military and I say 'get your hand off it' and let's all get along.
Choppersquad, I hope your flying is better than your journalism
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A quick observation sees Europeon posts seem more prone to military bashing than US posts. (Gee, what a surprise. /s)
US helo manufacturers actually do employ more test pilots with military backgrounds for a variety of good reasons than civilian pilots with oodles of hours.
It isn't a Us against Them scenerio. Just that military pilots have a lot of stick time, in varied A/C, under varied conditions, lots of training and a regemented , basic manner in approaching whatever the machine can throw at the them. Then throw in the bullets flying all around and into the A/C and this builds pilots who have basically "been there, done that" and able to 'handle' situations in a more casual manner. Most anyone can fly straight and level from point A and B all day and accumulate hours but we're talking about what it takes to control the beast when the chips are down or as they say, when the A/C tries to seperate the men from the boys.
Sorry, former (US) miitary pilots have the edge. IMO
US helo manufacturers actually do employ more test pilots with military backgrounds for a variety of good reasons than civilian pilots with oodles of hours.
It isn't a Us against Them scenerio. Just that military pilots have a lot of stick time, in varied A/C, under varied conditions, lots of training and a regemented , basic manner in approaching whatever the machine can throw at the them. Then throw in the bullets flying all around and into the A/C and this builds pilots who have basically "been there, done that" and able to 'handle' situations in a more casual manner. Most anyone can fly straight and level from point A and B all day and accumulate hours but we're talking about what it takes to control the beast when the chips are down or as they say, when the A/C tries to seperate the men from the boys.
Sorry, former (US) miitary pilots have the edge. IMO
Last edited by Dan Reno; 1st Sep 2010 at 13:47.
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ChopperDude: Try and keep PPRuNe a c*ap free zone by not posting such threads!
I've converted a bunch of civilian helo jocks onto turbines and and whole bunch more from from ab initio thru to their first licence! I admire them all and recognise the challenges they've overcome to get where they are but - it isn't a fair comparison to put up military pilots (who have gained a depth and diversity of experience at great cost) with their civilian counterparts. Its like asking the difference between a security guard and a soldier!
Please find a better topic to post!
HM
ps: Is my response mildy provocative? Perhaps. That's what you get from such posts - conflict! Delete the entire thread in my view.
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Gee Hell Man, just because the topic doesn't put a shining light on civilian pilots when compared to military pilots, don't expext the thread to be pulled just because it hurt someone's feelings. In the US we continue to dance around a multitude of issues, one being RACE which no one wants to speak openly about.
This civ versus mil pilot thingy is just like a lot of things in life; being in the right place/right time, money, luck heredity ability, where born, etc, etc...
It is what it is and no need to (in an adult, not PC world) for it to be swept under the carpet and not discussed (or cussed). No reason to stew about it. It takes all types to keep the Big Blue marble spinning. IMO
This civ versus mil pilot thingy is just like a lot of things in life; being in the right place/right time, money, luck heredity ability, where born, etc, etc...
It is what it is and no need to (in an adult, not PC world) for it to be swept under the carpet and not discussed (or cussed). No reason to stew about it. It takes all types to keep the Big Blue marble spinning. IMO
There are no limits
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Sadly the accident statistics don't seem to discriminate on the basis of race, colour, creed, sexual orientation, civilian or ex-military.
On this basis, we are equally as bad.
On this basis, we are equally as bad.
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This has been done to death but anyhow, "what limits" has it right on statistics...both mil and civvie crash as often and not taking into account aircraft shot down in a war zone...actually accidents by poor airmanship/pilot error....
I have flown with/taught both mil and civilian and there are as many bad on both sides of the fence....the mil generally fly less hours and some have a hard time adjusting to civvilian rules/regs, lack of support, single pilot ops and many have very few real IMC (without NVG) hours,etc. ........ the difference is attitude, the ex mil think they are the bees knees and cannot take any criticism, as for the last 20 years they have had sunshine blown up their arses ( I remember how I felt joining the "crappy civvies") and the civilians usually take things on board and learn from it... I also remember having a huge amount of respect for the north sea guys when I first flew out of Aberdeen on a real crappy night, imc the whole way in icing conditions,190 miles offshore,doing radar approaches to rigs at night in fog at minima's,(with my limited imc experience with the mil, mainly in the sim)!!! and feeling a bit humble as the P1 took it all in his stride!!! 
I took my military chip off my shoulder that night and left it at home forever more....
Fly safe EVERYONE....
P.H.
I have flown with/taught both mil and civilian and there are as many bad on both sides of the fence....the mil generally fly less hours and some have a hard time adjusting to civvilian rules/regs, lack of support, single pilot ops and many have very few real IMC (without NVG) hours,etc. ........ the difference is attitude, the ex mil think they are the bees knees and cannot take any criticism,
as for the last 20 years they have had sunshine blown up their arses ( I remember how I felt joining the "crappy civvies") and the civilians usually take things on board and learn from it... I also remember having a huge amount of respect for the north sea guys when I first flew out of Aberdeen on a real crappy night, imc the whole way in icing conditions,190 miles offshore,doing radar approaches to rigs at night in fog at minima's,(with my limited imc experience with the mil, mainly in the sim)!!! and feeling a bit humble as the P1 took it all in his stride!!! I took my military chip off my shoulder that night and left it at home forever more....
Fly safe EVERYONE....
P.H.
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Dan Reno: I wasn't so bothered about civilian pilots not being shown in a positive light - just feel that its a stupid subject which doesn't help anyone!
I posted this a while back http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/418...-holloman.html about the passing of Billy Holloman (the US Army's first 'black' helicopter pilot) and think we've come a long way in the US when it comes to race relations. Lots more to be done but I see encouraging signs of progress everywhere.
HM
I posted this a while back http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/418...-holloman.html about the passing of Billy Holloman (the US Army's first 'black' helicopter pilot) and think we've come a long way in the US when it comes to race relations. Lots more to be done but I see encouraging signs of progress everywhere.
HM
PullHarder
What are you talking about!
I had some years in the Mil in which I flew more hours than any I have had since leaving.
In my experience its the civvy pilots that can not take criticism, Usually the P1's that probably should have spent a little longer in the other seat. They feel it may impact their reputation. An attitude that is practically beaten out of Mil pilots. How long did you fly and what was it you flew when in the mil? Limited IMC and mainly in the sim? What is 'IMC (without NVG)?' Surely if NVG are required its VMC or at least 2km & 700ft(when I left). NVG is not logged as IMC so I don't understand that statement at all. Unless you were RN, using the 'sole reference to instruments' argument, then you would have had to have been a junglie pilot as pingers are single pilot and therefore you would know that your single pilot reference is also bo!!ox. How many police/HEMS pilots do you know that are ex mil? If its not many then consider the fact that you probably left the mil too early. Probably not knowing quite as much as you think you do.
Most ex mil types (not just pilots) are trained thoroughly to accept conditions where they will have to think for themselves, an ability that must be(not may be) learned. So working without support would be second nature.
I also had respect for the guys who flew the ARA with what seemed like an unnatural ease. However after flying them time and again, year after year, its only too obvious why they seem so uneventful. After all its the weather conditions and only the weather conditions that make Flying offshore vaguely interesting.
I never had a military chip on my shoulder. I do however have experiences that some civvy pilots choose to resent.
I respect the experience and abilities of all the friends and colleagues that I work with and have worked with in the past. It is my opinnion that no matter what a pilots background he is as able and as fallable as the next.
Although you never actually state in your post that you were once a military pilot. I have doubts that you actually served at all.
What are you talking about!
I had some years in the Mil in which I flew more hours than any I have had since leaving.
In my experience its the civvy pilots that can not take criticism, Usually the P1's that probably should have spent a little longer in the other seat. They feel it may impact their reputation. An attitude that is practically beaten out of Mil pilots. How long did you fly and what was it you flew when in the mil? Limited IMC and mainly in the sim? What is 'IMC (without NVG)?' Surely if NVG are required its VMC or at least 2km & 700ft(when I left). NVG is not logged as IMC so I don't understand that statement at all. Unless you were RN, using the 'sole reference to instruments' argument, then you would have had to have been a junglie pilot as pingers are single pilot and therefore you would know that your single pilot reference is also bo!!ox. How many police/HEMS pilots do you know that are ex mil? If its not many then consider the fact that you probably left the mil too early. Probably not knowing quite as much as you think you do.
Most ex mil types (not just pilots) are trained thoroughly to accept conditions where they will have to think for themselves, an ability that must be(not may be) learned. So working without support would be second nature.
I also had respect for the guys who flew the ARA with what seemed like an unnatural ease. However after flying them time and again, year after year, its only too obvious why they seem so uneventful. After all its the weather conditions and only the weather conditions that make Flying offshore vaguely interesting.
I never had a military chip on my shoulder. I do however have experiences that some civvy pilots choose to resent.
I respect the experience and abilities of all the friends and colleagues that I work with and have worked with in the past. It is my opinnion that no matter what a pilots background he is as able and as fallable as the next.
Although you never actually state in your post that you were once a military pilot. I have doubts that you actually served at all.
Last edited by Macaco Norte; 1st Sep 2010 at 20:56. Reason: grammar
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Choppersquad, I took several attempts to complete reading your article as I found it dull and whiny - it reads to me as though you have a complex about not making it as a military pilot, or maybe you just lack the confidence to confront the ex-mils that seem to irk you. Either way, putting the cat amongst the pigeons with your article is a cheap shot and you deserve all the criticism you have received.
What Limits addressed the only real base line when comparing pilots. Outside of accident statistics, I would be interested to hear what defines a good pilot. Only then will it be possible to establish "better quality pilots" and "poorer quality pilots".
I think we tend to rate pilots (subconsciously) based on their personal characteristics (like confidence and decision making ability) added to their flying skills and their experience level. And only when they score high on all three, do they make it to the "good pilot" status.
I am ex-mil, before you ask. I'm also a fairly experienced pilot both here in the US and the rest of the world, and I can assure you that there are good and not so good on both sides of the fence. However, the confidence levels and the war stories from the ex-mils are much more a reflection of the personality that took them through the military route in the first place. Not a reflection of perceived superiority.
You are not doing your case any good by whining. I would also recommend that the next time you decide to compare the dangers facing mil pilots and civilian flight instructors, that you use something more plausible than the civvy teaching in an R22.
Tam
What Limits addressed the only real base line when comparing pilots. Outside of accident statistics, I would be interested to hear what defines a good pilot. Only then will it be possible to establish "better quality pilots" and "poorer quality pilots".
I think we tend to rate pilots (subconsciously) based on their personal characteristics (like confidence and decision making ability) added to their flying skills and their experience level. And only when they score high on all three, do they make it to the "good pilot" status.
I am ex-mil, before you ask. I'm also a fairly experienced pilot both here in the US and the rest of the world, and I can assure you that there are good and not so good on both sides of the fence. However, the confidence levels and the war stories from the ex-mils are much more a reflection of the personality that took them through the military route in the first place. Not a reflection of perceived superiority.
You are not doing your case any good by whining. I would also recommend that the next time you decide to compare the dangers facing mil pilots and civilian flight instructors, that you use something more plausible than the civvy teaching in an R22.
Tam
choppersquad321
You also appear to be new to understanding pilots.
It isn't relevant what color of money it was that paid for training, if you are hiring somebody. Military training carries with it the chance to fail, get washed out of training, a decision typically made early on to save the tax payers some money. Your decision to bring an emotional tone to that element of your essay is one of many weaknesses in support of a vaguely formed assertion.
But as others have noted, you'll get good and bad eggs in either basket when you choose to hire a pilot for the opening your company has.
The keys to choosing an individual you will or will not hire include:
Regardless of how many hours one has, a very important consideration is how well, and how quickly, a given pilot adapts to a new task or job.
Beyond that, no further comment, other than this: as written, your piece isn't worth publishing.
You also appear to be new to understanding pilots.
It isn't relevant what color of money it was that paid for training, if you are hiring somebody. Military training carries with it the chance to fail, get washed out of training, a decision typically made early on to save the tax payers some money. Your decision to bring an emotional tone to that element of your essay is one of many weaknesses in support of a vaguely formed assertion.
But as others have noted, you'll get good and bad eggs in either basket when you choose to hire a pilot for the opening your company has.
The keys to choosing an individual you will or will not hire include:
- how teachable, and how trainable, is he or she?
- how experienced is this pilot, generally?
- how does that experience fit the tasks and jobs this pilot will be assigned when flying for my company?
Regardless of how many hours one has, a very important consideration is how well, and how quickly, a given pilot adapts to a new task or job.
Beyond that, no further comment, other than this: as written, your piece isn't worth publishing.