Are military trained Helicopter pilots overrated?
Brandtzag. Really I should avoid this steaming pile of ordure and not grace it with a reply.
Most military pilots are not trained initially for any specific purpose like killing, but to fulfil a wide range of piloting roles. A minority will eventually find themselves with fingers on triggers.
The rest will admittedly be involved in operations which indirectly or directly support the front line attack force, but most are happy to exercise piloting skills in defence of their countries without aggression.
I spent 10 years transporting troops and supplies, sometimes into very difficult and dangerous situations and like most pilots who got their military wings with me, I was relieved to complete my service as a "closet pacifist".
All that most of us ever wanted was the best flying training that tax money could buy and challenging flights to sharpen our skills. We got those, big time!
Don't believe the gung-ho rubbish about military pilots in the movies. I doubt that you were ever a military pilot and so I offer you a figurative roll of toilet paper to wipe your orifice which spouted such dung.
Most military pilots are not trained initially for any specific purpose like killing, but to fulfil a wide range of piloting roles. A minority will eventually find themselves with fingers on triggers.
The rest will admittedly be involved in operations which indirectly or directly support the front line attack force, but most are happy to exercise piloting skills in defence of their countries without aggression.
I spent 10 years transporting troops and supplies, sometimes into very difficult and dangerous situations and like most pilots who got their military wings with me, I was relieved to complete my service as a "closet pacifist".
All that most of us ever wanted was the best flying training that tax money could buy and challenging flights to sharpen our skills. We got those, big time!
Don't believe the gung-ho rubbish about military pilots in the movies. I doubt that you were ever a military pilot and so I offer you a figurative roll of toilet paper to wipe your orifice which spouted such dung.
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Colibri: your post is confusing since it pretty much agrees with bran
bran writes:
seems to be in agreement here
However, I think it's naive to think that the military/government recruits to fulfill a dream of someone to become a pilot and I think bran is pretty accurate in his observation. They recruit to plug holes in an organization that has the readiness to defend its nation.
@ chc: I can't see what flying experience has on making a qualified comment or decision. Did you know that Maj. Gen David H. Petraeus (** at the time) is not a qualified (military) pilot yet was commanding general of 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault).
Most military pilots are not trained initially for any specific purpose like killing, but to fulfil a wide range of piloting roles. A minority will eventually find themselves with fingers on triggers.
a military man/pilot has to be prepared to kill another human being without hesitating
However, I think it's naive to think that the military/government recruits to fulfill a dream of someone to become a pilot and I think bran is pretty accurate in his observation. They recruit to plug holes in an organization that has the readiness to defend its nation.
@ chc: I can't see what flying experience has on making a qualified comment or decision. Did you know that Maj. Gen David H. Petraeus (** at the time) is not a qualified (military) pilot yet was commanding general of 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault).
@ chc: I can't see what flying experience has on making a qualified comment or decision. Did you know that Maj. Gen David H. Petraeus (** at the time) is not a qualified (military) pilot yet was commanding general of 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault).
Really i didn't know that hmmmmmmm, but i suppose he had some aviation advisors on his staff at JOC.
jackx123. Where's the difficulty? It's quite simple. Boys want to fly. The military wants them to fly and replace those who leave to become civilian pilots. The military select those they think could make the grade and trains them for a year to 18 months, during which time some boys get thrown out for not keeping up with the pace.
During training it becomes clearer which pimply youths will be best suited to which flying roles. Out of, say 70 who start a course, maybe 50 complete it. As a rough idea, 10 each go to helicopters, heavy transport, fighters, recce and maritime ops, or whatever other flying specialisations you can dream up.
In the above example only 20% become potential "killers" and possibly in later years a few others might transfer into that specialist role. But of those who ever fire a missile or guns and know they killed someone, very few will enjoy that experience or memories.
Even the pilots of fast metal prefer shooting targets and the exhilaration of speed. I know some of them including one who shot down a Mig. He doesn't brag and sometimes he doesn't dream too well.
I have had bullet holes more than once through my helicopter, including the cockpit. Our operations took us into known 'hot' zones to drop troops and evacuate the wounded. I and my crew were defenceless and did the job because it needed to be done. Some friends got killed in action, but really most of we youngsters just loved the flying.
Many of us left the military after completing service periods and some of us became civilian pilots. Only one from my course was a braggart and the rest settled well into airlines, etc. I hear more bragging at flying clubs than from my ex military fellows.
We have every reason to be quietly proud of serving our countries and most of us are grateful for the free training. Furthermore I'm certain that over 95% are relieved not to have been required to kill anyone.
Do military-trained pilots make better pilots than civilian-trained pilots in specific roles, after both have been through careful selection? NO!
Are military-trained pilots more likely on average to be trainable in a wide variety of piloting roles than civilian-trained pilots who haven't been through a rigorous selection process, such as imposed on applicants for North Sea pilot jobs? YES!
During training it becomes clearer which pimply youths will be best suited to which flying roles. Out of, say 70 who start a course, maybe 50 complete it. As a rough idea, 10 each go to helicopters, heavy transport, fighters, recce and maritime ops, or whatever other flying specialisations you can dream up.
In the above example only 20% become potential "killers" and possibly in later years a few others might transfer into that specialist role. But of those who ever fire a missile or guns and know they killed someone, very few will enjoy that experience or memories.
Even the pilots of fast metal prefer shooting targets and the exhilaration of speed. I know some of them including one who shot down a Mig. He doesn't brag and sometimes he doesn't dream too well.
I have had bullet holes more than once through my helicopter, including the cockpit. Our operations took us into known 'hot' zones to drop troops and evacuate the wounded. I and my crew were defenceless and did the job because it needed to be done. Some friends got killed in action, but really most of we youngsters just loved the flying.
Many of us left the military after completing service periods and some of us became civilian pilots. Only one from my course was a braggart and the rest settled well into airlines, etc. I hear more bragging at flying clubs than from my ex military fellows.
We have every reason to be quietly proud of serving our countries and most of us are grateful for the free training. Furthermore I'm certain that over 95% are relieved not to have been required to kill anyone.
Do military-trained pilots make better pilots than civilian-trained pilots in specific roles, after both have been through careful selection? NO!
Are military-trained pilots more likely on average to be trainable in a wide variety of piloting roles than civilian-trained pilots who haven't been through a rigorous selection process, such as imposed on applicants for North Sea pilot jobs? YES!
Last edited by Colibri49; 7th Sep 2010 at 21:01.
Are military-trained chopper pilots over-rated?
Hardly!!!!
Indeed, I would think exactly the opposite.....
My civilian-trained co-pilot had, at the last count from 0900 this morning at the UK CAA Service Counter, R22, 44, 206L, AS355, AS365 and S61
Now I believe that is over-rated!
Indeed, I would think exactly the opposite.....
My civilian-trained co-pilot had, at the last count from 0900 this morning at the UK CAA Service Counter, R22, 44, 206L, AS355, AS365 and S61
Now I believe that is over-rated!
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Far more civilian pilots have lost their lives since 9/11 operating Hughes, Robinson and Enstrom helicopters here at home than military pilot lives lost in combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Formerly the helicopter industry was largely populated only with ex-military pilots, because nobody else had the means to get the experience. Today, at least domestically in the USA, the industry mix is slightly higher in favor of civilians. This doesn't imply that civilian training is better or worse, but only represents the numbers hired...which is always a function of the numbers available. More and more civilian helicopter pilots have become available for employment, and consequently more are hired. The large pool of military aviators that ended up on the job market as Vietnam drew down has largely dwindled. Extended service requirements and better pay have meant fewer military helicopter pilots entering the industry job market, as does the fewer number of helo aviators being trained.
In the end, the primary training source isn't the consideration for a helicopter pilot but the experience, the attitude, and the ability to do the job. In a competitive market for any given job, this could go either way, depending on the individual applying for the job.
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Now may be a good time to jump back in and ask....again: "Would not the VERY BEST helo pilots be test pilots at large helo manufacturers? I don't think they'd trust their new test beds to nothing but the BEST since everything is riding on those pilots abilites and skills."
Who are these "Best of the Best?"
They are prior military pilots (at least in the US).
IMHO I'd have to say that former military-trained pilots are best since they were trained on my dime, got the best machines available, worked under more stressful conditions than most civies (bullets nipping at them and all) and had more than flying duties to take up their time each day (multi tasked outside aviation). In particular, I've personally seen former Army test and maintenance pilots as factory TPs and of course, former military fast fliers being chosen as the test pilots for fixed winged manufacturers over civilian pilots who had odles of pt A to pt B hours. What makes them overall the best? Perhaps the military pilot has the overwhelming confidence, skills and mindset to without hesitation 'take it up a notch' when requred. This translates into having flown so many hours, under so many condions at such a very high pucker factor that a hair-raiseing flight for for the 'common pilot' isn't even worth mentioning in their opinion. Just good sticks!
Who are these "Best of the Best?"
They are prior military pilots (at least in the US).
IMHO I'd have to say that former military-trained pilots are best since they were trained on my dime, got the best machines available, worked under more stressful conditions than most civies (bullets nipping at them and all) and had more than flying duties to take up their time each day (multi tasked outside aviation). In particular, I've personally seen former Army test and maintenance pilots as factory TPs and of course, former military fast fliers being chosen as the test pilots for fixed winged manufacturers over civilian pilots who had odles of pt A to pt B hours. What makes them overall the best? Perhaps the military pilot has the overwhelming confidence, skills and mindset to without hesitation 'take it up a notch' when requred. This translates into having flown so many hours, under so many condions at such a very high pucker factor that a hair-raiseing flight for for the 'common pilot' isn't even worth mentioning in their opinion. Just good sticks!
Last edited by Dan Reno; 7th Sep 2010 at 22:24.
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Who are these "Best of the Best?"
They are prior military pilots (at least in the US).
They are prior military pilots (at least in the US).
One could say that having to start from scratch in a machine with practically no rotor inertia and very limited performance forces one to plan ahead just a little more.
It comes down to the individual. Not to the place where the primary training was done.
This translates into having flown so many hours, under so many condions at such a very high pucker factor that a hair-raiseing flight for for the 'common pilot' isn't even worth mentioning in their opinion.
Military pilots tend to have lower overall hours than many civilian counterparts in many cases, given the same time in service or time in a helicopter cockpit.
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seems like a great tie.
Colibri got rewarded 5,000h for the 5 potshots.
Timex thinks that the massive hours needed to become a test pilot is over rated and DR thinks the opposite and again guppy thinks the opposite.
CNC thinks you need to know about flying to have a qualified opinion and votes for Gen David H. Petraeus as the next test pilot for boeing.
We need guntslapper YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 1 to make a video of this
this is funny
A few years back I went to a circus in Moscow and saw a few monkeys riding a pushbike. not sure if they were civilian or military, but they performed over expectation
Colibri got rewarded 5,000h for the 5 potshots.
Timex thinks that the massive hours needed to become a test pilot is over rated and DR thinks the opposite and again guppy thinks the opposite.
CNC thinks you need to know about flying to have a qualified opinion and votes for Gen David H. Petraeus as the next test pilot for boeing.
We need guntslapper YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 1 to make a video of this
this is funnyA few years back I went to a circus in Moscow and saw a few monkeys riding a pushbike. not sure if they were civilian or military, but they performed over expectation
Last edited by jackx123; 8th Sep 2010 at 10:07.
by virtue of the nature of flying the military is looking for soldiers and not necessary pilots.
By the nature of flying, the military is looking for a pilot candidate that it can train to be a pilot. I know this because I spent some years doing just that, training military pilots. In some cases, we get pilots (with civilian time, who we then train (at less expense some times , hooray!)) to be a military pilot ... a subset of all pilots.
For soldiers, your recruiting requirement and process is different.
Please report back when you have something of substance to offer us.
But the more important point was previously made: the good pilot, regardless of initial source and training, is he or she who is passionate about the craft, and who embraces it and continues to try and perfect it and learn more of how to do that every day.
Again, that is a personality driven characteristic that can be found from people regardless of where they started. The distinction asserted in the OP was made for the sake of creating a distinction, and falls afoul of the experiences of many, civil and military, helicopter pilots who've been with the profession for a long time. See also "trolling" even if unintentionally.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 8th Sep 2010 at 18:27.
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Timex thinks that the massive hours needed to become a test pilot is over rated and DR thinks the opposite and again guppy thinks the opposite.
Timex thinks that the massive hours needed to become a test pilot is over rated and DR thinks the opposite and again guppy thinks the opposite.
Try reading the reply again....nothing to do with TP's.
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I will re-iterate that anyone who generalizes like this will be making a mistake. Individual attitude and commitment to the profession will make more difference than hours, who trained you, or who paid for it.
As for me....I was military but I have paid for some of my own ratings since I left. I don't feel the military training was given for free as I was tasked to take risks that nearly killed me. I do not feel personnally enriched for paying for ratings.
I have seen blind disregard and blind obedience to the rules/regs both in the service and out. In both cases I see that as a mistake. We are paid to think!
I learned a great deal in uniform from very good training. I flew nearly as many hours (in a war zone last year as a civvie) as I did in 10 years of military service. Both quantity and quality of hours, in isolation, will fail to make you a well-rounded pilot.
To repeat what I said above: every flight is an opportunity to learn from the a/c, copilot/captain, environment, customer, and so on. If you keep learning you are, and will continue to be, a great pilot. If you don't then you are not.
As for me....I was military but I have paid for some of my own ratings since I left. I don't feel the military training was given for free as I was tasked to take risks that nearly killed me. I do not feel personnally enriched for paying for ratings.
I have seen blind disregard and blind obedience to the rules/regs both in the service and out. In both cases I see that as a mistake. We are paid to think!
I learned a great deal in uniform from very good training. I flew nearly as many hours (in a war zone last year as a civvie) as I did in 10 years of military service. Both quantity and quality of hours, in isolation, will fail to make you a well-rounded pilot.
To repeat what I said above: every flight is an opportunity to learn from the a/c, copilot/captain, environment, customer, and so on. If you keep learning you are, and will continue to be, a great pilot. If you don't then you are not.
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Could it be that there are both civil and military pilots that equally suck? That is not to say that all pilots equally suck. Obviously some suck more than others or put another way all pilots suck to a varying degree. I think post no 11 by Gordy sums it up nicely. Excellent wind up coppersqard123.
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Have dealt with military pilots in Army Aviation, and civil pilots since I left the "big green suck".
Both are difficult, know all people; although must admit some did know a lot.
Brings to mind a little saying:
You can tell a helo pilot, but you cannot tell him much.
Apologies to Whirls, I'll make you an honorary "him".
Cheers
BH
Both are difficult, know all people; although must admit some did know a lot.
Brings to mind a little saying:
You can tell a helo pilot, but you cannot tell him much.
Apologies to Whirls, I'll make you an honorary "him".
Cheers
BH
