SARH to go
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Clear patterns emerge on this thread when the teddy gets thrown and the anti-RAF brigade realise that they've fallen short in an argument. For example, s92fella's oh so adult response to crab when perfectly valid questions were posed about the RIPS :
Now, we have rottweiler realising in his heart of hearts that crab et al may actually have a point about training :
Child-like responses tell us so much.
Infact i have just read back through some of your posts........
Actually i can't be a*****.
Actually i can't be a*****.
No just bored with it, if it makes you happy, we do no continuation training.
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Well i couldn't be!!!!!!!!!
Plus its a bit to much for peps who fly 30 year old aircraft.
Well you could always apply for a job with the SAR H winning bidder.
Plus its a bit to much for peps who fly 30 year old aircraft.
Well you could always apply for a job with the SAR H winning bidder.
Anyone who suggests night flying without NVG's is a "good" thing has never flown with NVG's!
None as Blind as though that cannot see....and going from 20/200 vision to 20/40 vision as with NVG's cannot be logically argued against.
When one can do confined area operations in the pitch dark...middle of a Pine forest....without any difficulty at all but cannot see the ground from a hover with the naked eye.....that should tell you what the difference NVG's make.
Been there....done that!
None as Blind as though that cannot see....and going from 20/200 vision to 20/40 vision as with NVG's cannot be logically argued against.
When one can do confined area operations in the pitch dark...middle of a Pine forest....without any difficulty at all but cannot see the ground from a hover with the naked eye.....that should tell you what the difference NVG's make.
Been there....done that!
S92 fella - is there a problem with the wonderful RIPS on the Stornoway aircraft? I note it has been on the RCS as only being able to operate down to minus 5 deg for the last couple of days. If you can be a*sed to answer that is
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S92Fella
Well you could always apply for a job with the SAR H winning bidder.
Sorry, do you know something that Abbeywood doesn't - do tell!
Well you could always apply for a job with the SAR H winning bidder.
Sorry, do you know something that Abbeywood doesn't - do tell!
Sven - since one of the bidders has 2 ex-Gp Capts on board (3 if you count Andy B.
) and the other only has one, it should be a straightforward decision
) and the other only has one, it should be a straightforward decision
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S92 fella - is there a problem with the wonderful RIPS on the Stornoway aircraft? I note it has been on the RCS as only being able to operate down to minus 5 deg for the last couple of days. If you can be a*sed to answer that is
Plus ref the winning bidder, you have 2 choices so when it is announced you will be able to apply then!
Ex-GpCapts?
You don't retain your rank when you retire anymore?
You don't retain your rank when you retire anymore?
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Vie sans frontieres,
A very perceptive post Sir. If you read the threads that Crab gets involved in he is, almost always, asking genuine questions of those who seek to rubbish mil-SAR and who claim that civvies can do the same job cheaper. Having done so, he is usually treated to a tirade of personal abuse and little by way of helpful or knowledgeable replies. Admittedly, he is prone to getting a bit emotional but then he is defending an organisation with an enviable reputation recognised worlwide (otherwise, why would the RAF SAR standards unit be in such high demand) being slagged off by the woefully ignorant.
I sincerely hope that the more offensive responses, if they are from genuine civilian SAR operators, represent the views of the minority. Before any civilian operators get upset, I think the same about military operators slagging off their civilian counterparts.
CD
A very perceptive post Sir. If you read the threads that Crab gets involved in he is, almost always, asking genuine questions of those who seek to rubbish mil-SAR and who claim that civvies can do the same job cheaper. Having done so, he is usually treated to a tirade of personal abuse and little by way of helpful or knowledgeable replies. Admittedly, he is prone to getting a bit emotional but then he is defending an organisation with an enviable reputation recognised worlwide (otherwise, why would the RAF SAR standards unit be in such high demand) being slagged off by the woefully ignorant.
I sincerely hope that the more offensive responses, if they are from genuine civilian SAR operators, represent the views of the minority. Before any civilian operators get upset, I think the same about military operators slagging off their civilian counterparts.
CD
What a great thread -eventhough sometimes getting far from constructive debate...
Her is my 5 cents worth. I had a privilege to fly several operational missions both with Coastguard (then Bristows) S61N in Lee on Solent and spent several days with 202.Sqn in Lossiemouth. Back home I work hoist ops in mountains daytime only (for now) (but do other things at night including NVG, FLIR) and can say that both experiences were great - those five days in Lossie were one of the finest (and exciting) days of my life!
What I observed was:
S61N was much better equipped aircraft and also much more reliable for my taste - I only couldn`t understand why they were not using NVGs, since they put so much money into those (bit old) machines and crews had their military experience with NVGs, so???.
Both crews were doing things in very similar ways as Bristows crew were all ex-military - older, more experienced but, these skills are still a bit perishable, as we all know...
I was amazed on how much training time was available to RAF crews - we spent a good 3 hours a day training, compared to much less at Lee. What is best? If you ask beancounters I know what the answer would be.. but cannot and will not agree.
SeaKings are, for my taste, in need of... well, retirement. As I have engineer background I easily noticed several things that surprised me and even all those great engineers up in Lossiemouth could not make a miracle.
But, on the other hand, I would say that "cheaper" does not necessarily mean lowering standards - it can also mean improving efficiency. In Lee, there was only one engineer on duty, but dispatch reliability was very good while in Lossie, three engineers "attacked" only the hoist after each overwater sortie (washing, etc.), let alone other work done, but still could not prevent helicopter going off line too often - by my humble opinion.
Back home, after landing, I do helicopter postflight and the hoist cable inspection and cleaning by myself.. and other crew will lend a hand if necessary.
I cannot agree that civillians cannot maintain standards to RAF/Navy levels - particularly as long as RAF and Navy suppllies experienced crews to commercial operators. Once this source is depleted, it can still be done-even from scratch. The only question is, who will pay and if there will be enough money put aside to do the proper training-and keep the acquired skills sharp.
May I ask a question to the audience-why London Metropolitan police, as first non-military non-big commercial company operator in UK has such big difficulties bringing hoist operations to life? Does it have anything to do with "it is OUR calling" attitude?
hoistop
Her is my 5 cents worth. I had a privilege to fly several operational missions both with Coastguard (then Bristows) S61N in Lee on Solent and spent several days with 202.Sqn in Lossiemouth. Back home I work hoist ops in mountains daytime only (for now) (but do other things at night including NVG, FLIR) and can say that both experiences were great - those five days in Lossie were one of the finest (and exciting) days of my life!
What I observed was:
S61N was much better equipped aircraft and also much more reliable for my taste - I only couldn`t understand why they were not using NVGs, since they put so much money into those (bit old) machines and crews had their military experience with NVGs, so???.
Both crews were doing things in very similar ways as Bristows crew were all ex-military - older, more experienced but, these skills are still a bit perishable, as we all know...
I was amazed on how much training time was available to RAF crews - we spent a good 3 hours a day training, compared to much less at Lee. What is best? If you ask beancounters I know what the answer would be.. but cannot and will not agree.
SeaKings are, for my taste, in need of... well, retirement. As I have engineer background I easily noticed several things that surprised me and even all those great engineers up in Lossiemouth could not make a miracle.
But, on the other hand, I would say that "cheaper" does not necessarily mean lowering standards - it can also mean improving efficiency. In Lee, there was only one engineer on duty, but dispatch reliability was very good while in Lossie, three engineers "attacked" only the hoist after each overwater sortie (washing, etc.), let alone other work done, but still could not prevent helicopter going off line too often - by my humble opinion.
Back home, after landing, I do helicopter postflight and the hoist cable inspection and cleaning by myself.. and other crew will lend a hand if necessary.
I cannot agree that civillians cannot maintain standards to RAF/Navy levels - particularly as long as RAF and Navy suppllies experienced crews to commercial operators. Once this source is depleted, it can still be done-even from scratch. The only question is, who will pay and if there will be enough money put aside to do the proper training-and keep the acquired skills sharp.
May I ask a question to the audience-why London Metropolitan police, as first non-military non-big commercial company operator in UK has such big difficulties bringing hoist operations to life? Does it have anything to do with "it is OUR calling" attitude?
hoistop
Last edited by hoistop; 26th Feb 2009 at 09:43.
Hoistop - thanks for your post, it is unusual to get an unbiased view of things here
To answer some of your questions:
NVG - the CAA has not yet approved NVG for civilian ops although some police ASUs do have a limited clearance.
Aircraft availability and serviceability comes down to how many hours you fly on it - as you saw, we (RAF) fly a great many more hours than the MCA crews because we have a healthy training budget. More hours means more servicing and whilst I accept that we do possibly over-service our SeaKings, I do not believe that one engineer could keep up with our flying rate and still achieve the same availability.
The RAF Sea Kings are more complex mechanically, having a folding head and tail which generates a lot of servicing even if we don't need the folding capability.
I am pleased that you reach the same conclusions that I have in that UKcivSAR looks cheap at the moment because it takes experienced ex-mil crews who are already trained whereas in the future it will have to train its own and pay those big bills.
I think the Met police winching capability was aquired for reasons other than rescues
To answer some of your questions:
NVG - the CAA has not yet approved NVG for civilian ops although some police ASUs do have a limited clearance.
Aircraft availability and serviceability comes down to how many hours you fly on it - as you saw, we (RAF) fly a great many more hours than the MCA crews because we have a healthy training budget. More hours means more servicing and whilst I accept that we do possibly over-service our SeaKings, I do not believe that one engineer could keep up with our flying rate and still achieve the same availability.
The RAF Sea Kings are more complex mechanically, having a folding head and tail which generates a lot of servicing even if we don't need the folding capability.
I am pleased that you reach the same conclusions that I have in that UKcivSAR looks cheap at the moment because it takes experienced ex-mil crews who are already trained whereas in the future it will have to train its own and pay those big bills.
I think the Met police winching capability was aquired for reasons other than rescues
Thanx Crab,
I noticed those complex folding systems on SeaKings- and was told that it is so complex that no one really knows how it works (some pun intended)
Yes, it takes maintenance manhours to make it work, it adds complexity and weight=reduces operational availability for nothing, as it is never used. I meant that these choppers were off line but not for schheduled maintenance but for snags that needed attention quite often.
Lee on Solent base with one engineer of course is not running maintenance on one pair of hands - when I was there, the whole main transmission was replaced, of course with help from Redhill. But day to day operations were much more "lean" compared with RAF style - and the mighty IJ worked like Swiss watch.
NVG is used in UK non military helicopter for many years by Devon&Cornwall ASU, flying BK 117, as far as I know. I know this is not entirelly civillian, but it is 100% under UK CAA supervision - so why Bristows couldn`t go that way?
I am aware of reasons for hoist installation to Metpolice ASU 145s, but... this is still the first in UK air support and maybe this capability might trigger an idea about some little rescues here and there-remember the tragedy some years ago when boat, full of celebrating high school graduates capsized in downtown London? Would FLIR, hoist SX-16 etc. equipped chopper, being on scene within minutes, make a difference? I think yes, but maybe some people are not comfortable with that idea... that is what I was asking.
hoistop
I noticed those complex folding systems on SeaKings- and was told that it is so complex that no one really knows how it works (some pun intended)
Yes, it takes maintenance manhours to make it work, it adds complexity and weight=reduces operational availability for nothing, as it is never used. I meant that these choppers were off line but not for schheduled maintenance but for snags that needed attention quite often.
Lee on Solent base with one engineer of course is not running maintenance on one pair of hands - when I was there, the whole main transmission was replaced, of course with help from Redhill. But day to day operations were much more "lean" compared with RAF style - and the mighty IJ worked like Swiss watch.
NVG is used in UK non military helicopter for many years by Devon&Cornwall ASU, flying BK 117, as far as I know. I know this is not entirelly civillian, but it is 100% under UK CAA supervision - so why Bristows couldn`t go that way?
I am aware of reasons for hoist installation to Metpolice ASU 145s, but... this is still the first in UK air support and maybe this capability might trigger an idea about some little rescues here and there-remember the tragedy some years ago when boat, full of celebrating high school graduates capsized in downtown London? Would FLIR, hoist SX-16 etc. equipped chopper, being on scene within minutes, make a difference? I think yes, but maybe some people are not comfortable with that idea... that is what I was asking.
hoistop
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General
Vie and Crab,
I would just like to say that in my experience there is a constant proccess of training and development within CG SAR, whenever one pops into the 92 bases there always seems to be a mug in hand and planning of the next training flight. Certainly the fixed wing assetts are always at it, but their experience comes from live ops. If you go around the south east coast I would suggest you may find that CG / MCA, RNLI units see more of and interact more or just as regularly with CG assets fixed or rotary as the 'yellow peril'! And speaking with some degree of night SAR ops experience, I would much rather undertake them with the use of FLIR systems or other than a pair of green tubes. These are all splendid skills sets to have and I'm not saying it to be-smirch anyone, its just that I am happier operating low level at night with the benefit of FLIR systems than NVG in my particular environment. Equally the NV systems we have probably come under the 'pre historic' bracket by comparison to those Crab is using.
Finally I know this is a place to have a rant on occasion but I have to say, Crab, you make me feel just a little bit nervous at the prospect of working with you at some point. Whilst we never have much to do with our own rotary bretheren in CG one is almost getting to the point of having preferred work colleagues, and subconciously I keep thinking 'Crab' when I see something yellow and start looking around for a bonkers belgian, senior service, our own or if I'm really lucky something pavey, even though the 53's are no longer with us.
I hear and absorb your arguments Crab, but you are beginning to make me and a few others a little nervous!!!
I would just like to say that in my experience there is a constant proccess of training and development within CG SAR, whenever one pops into the 92 bases there always seems to be a mug in hand and planning of the next training flight. Certainly the fixed wing assetts are always at it, but their experience comes from live ops. If you go around the south east coast I would suggest you may find that CG / MCA, RNLI units see more of and interact more or just as regularly with CG assets fixed or rotary as the 'yellow peril'! And speaking with some degree of night SAR ops experience, I would much rather undertake them with the use of FLIR systems or other than a pair of green tubes. These are all splendid skills sets to have and I'm not saying it to be-smirch anyone, its just that I am happier operating low level at night with the benefit of FLIR systems than NVG in my particular environment. Equally the NV systems we have probably come under the 'pre historic' bracket by comparison to those Crab is using.
Finally I know this is a place to have a rant on occasion but I have to say, Crab, you make me feel just a little bit nervous at the prospect of working with you at some point. Whilst we never have much to do with our own rotary bretheren in CG one is almost getting to the point of having preferred work colleagues, and subconciously I keep thinking 'Crab' when I see something yellow and start looking around for a bonkers belgian, senior service, our own or if I'm really lucky something pavey, even though the 53's are no longer with us.
I hear and absorb your arguments Crab, but you are beginning to make me and a few others a little nervous!!!
Traing, training, training...
It seems to me that much has been made about the amount of training the RAF crews (is it the same for the RN crews?) versus their civillian counterparts.
Presumably the RAF (if not the MoD if RN SAR is the same) have made a watertight case for sustaining this expensive continuation training (or the bean counters would have stopped it)?
Can I ask what the plan is for SAR-H? Will the Service crews fly from seperate bases with different training levels (like now), or will the crews be mixed together? If the latter, whose training regime will be in force? Or are all of the answers to these question commercially sensitive?
Just asking (and hoping for some sensible replies...).
Nick
Presumably the RAF (if not the MoD if RN SAR is the same) have made a watertight case for sustaining this expensive continuation training (or the bean counters would have stopped it)?
Can I ask what the plan is for SAR-H? Will the Service crews fly from seperate bases with different training levels (like now), or will the crews be mixed together? If the latter, whose training regime will be in force? Or are all of the answers to these question commercially sensitive?
Just asking (and hoping for some sensible replies...).
Nick
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No VSF your missing the point, I appreciate English is not your primary Language but try listening to a balanced argument.
Nicholas Howard- I would hope that our differences can be put aside, which I am sure they would and certainly over time I am sure they would all but disappear. I have worked with and learnt new tricks from Civilians, ex Navy, ex Air Force and ex Army they all have something to bring to the table. That’s one of its strengths. Of course there are disagreements but that’s normal anywhere.
A more pressing point which I am sure the relevant authorities have addressed! whose rule book do we work to. Initial suggestions were that some basses would remain manned by Military Aircrew, with a Civilian registered and supported Aircraft. Think that might no longer be the case, however will wait and see. There is a great deal of experience of Civilianisation in the Air Force with Grobs, King Air, and Firefly all being G registered, there may be more but that’s all I know off. But think this case might require more thought. But obviously this will all have been sorted out, with the relevant authorities being approached!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nicholas Howard- I would hope that our differences can be put aside, which I am sure they would and certainly over time I am sure they would all but disappear. I have worked with and learnt new tricks from Civilians, ex Navy, ex Air Force and ex Army they all have something to bring to the table. That’s one of its strengths. Of course there are disagreements but that’s normal anywhere.
A more pressing point which I am sure the relevant authorities have addressed! whose rule book do we work to. Initial suggestions were that some basses would remain manned by Military Aircrew, with a Civilian registered and supported Aircraft. Think that might no longer be the case, however will wait and see. There is a great deal of experience of Civilianisation in the Air Force with Grobs, King Air, and Firefly all being G registered, there may be more but that’s all I know off. But think this case might require more thought. But obviously this will all have been sorted out, with the relevant authorities being approached!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by rottweiler; 16th Feb 2009 at 21:30. Reason: cant spell