SARH to go

[Vie sans frontieres]

They will be well trained whether they are military or civilian, exactly my point

Will they now? You know a lot about it.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Maybe the solution would be to use hot-air dirigibles for SAR? They could be the ultimate SAR tool based upon the incredible volumes of hot air that some of the crew-members here seem to be capable of generating. By simply diverting the hot gases into the envelope rather than being wasted by being vented to atmosphere! Indeed they would certainly require a dump valve to protect them from over-inflating and bursting!

Imagine: the ultimate perpetual motion aircraft, with a minute carbon footprint.

[arandcee]

I expect my military personnel to be on the front line that’s what I pay you for. I can not justify you getting the same wage as somebody who is being shot at, killed and maimed.

Tw@

Cos going out into a night you wouldn't put your cat out into, to fly out over the water or the cliffs or the mountains to pluck an unfortunate person in need to safety and bring them home to their loved ones isn't as worthy of 'your' tax money huh? Ever looked at your tax bill, deducted what you take back out in services/benefits/prescription subsidy etc and then compared it to what stuff like the military, NHS, civil service etc etc cost? I don't care how much you pay it's a drop in the ocean (no pun intended)

Personally I think you owe the people on here (mil and civ) that actually do the job (and I'm not one of them BTW) an apology - if you've got the balls. Then don't let the door hit your ar$e on the way out.

[[email protected]]

Sasless, since the mil and civsar flights are assessed according to completely different criteria and by different checkers, the quality of SAR provision is impossible to compare.

Rottweiler - the capability to operate overland, at night, in poor weather only exists in UK SAR in the military because it is a core military skill. There is an assumption that the CAA will give this same capability to civsar post 2012 but it is not a given - all the experience on NVG comes from the military and, much like instrument flying, it is a perishable skill requiring plenty of training to stay competent.

UKSAR post 2012 won't be cheaper for the taxpayer because maintaining the same capability that exists now will require lots of money and training - the last bidder to withdraw did so because they couldn't see any profit to be made within the required budget.

Like so many others, you have believed the 'it must be cheaper to civilianise' argument just because it seems obvious if you don't know anything about SAR.

[rottweiler]

Try reading it again arandcee, never said it was an easy or safe job just said it’s not what you joined up to do, you join the military to go to war. Or at least that’s what I thought it said on the tin. You lot are so busy trying to protect your jobs, which I can understand, that you have missed the point of what is better for the poor old taxpayer. Find your rant about services/benefits/prescription subsidy etc a bit thoughtless, thought you were entitled to them as well as all your extra benefits of being in the military. If the civilian world is so rosy, you can always give up your extra benefits and join it. My only interest is the level of service and the cost. Despite all the innuendos on here I think you both provide an equal and outstanding level of service. So we are only arguing about the cost!

Please correct me if I am wrong crab@ but I do believe the civ SAR already do overland SAR. Do Stornoway not go in to the mountains at night? As for Bristows pulling out, the game has a long way to go yet, will be very surprised if we don’t see them in some shape or form. Is BIH still in, could somebody buy them out. But yes agree the cost of NVG training will be high, but then it’s going to be the same for whoever gets it military or civ.
As for civilianisation it appears to work as there are many parts of the military that have been civilianised. Although I hear rants about them as well, it’s only ever from serving military personnel, would have thought once again it must be cheaper and working or there is no way this government would go for it.
The CAA will give the exemptions because they will make a lot of money from it and will positively encourage it for that reason. They don’t make any money from the military. "the quality of SAR provision is impossible to compare". Difficult, but not impossible and that is only because of peoples inability to see through their bigotry. As I understand it all the civilian checkers are ex military bringing with them the same standards so not sure where you are going with that.

[arandcee]

Although I don't want to prolong an argument/discussion, and perhaps I was a little 'strident' towards the end there, I feel the need to point out that I am not and never have been in the military. And I don't claim to be an expert in the field but have always lived in a coastal area and have nothing but respect for the 'big yellow helicopters' that have been a recurring part of my local news broadcasts. And indeed, for all of those (mil and civ) that do the same.

[rottweiler]

arandcee. I think all that would change if it is civilianised would be that you will have a new helicopter painted in a different colour with Coastguard written on it. The standard of service will not change regardless of whether the military retain it or it is civilianised. It will on the whole be the same people doing the job but with a different colour flight suit on. If you are lucky enough to get an S92 then you will have IMHO the best SAR aircraft around, yes the range will be an issue. However that problem could be easily sorted and probably will be on the MK2. Its long range tank is not the best in the world as it takes up to much room in the back, it needs to be thought about designed and built with SAR in mind. Forgot about the downwash, its a problem but think they are managing to work through it.

[Bigtop]

CRAB - so which is it then??

Carlos - thanks for the information - there is no doubt that the extra speed and range of the EH101 make it a good long-range overwater SAR machine but in UK only a small percentage of our rescues fall into that category.

I notice on the RCS tote today that there is no night wet winching capability likely for the 139 before March, is it the software issue that is causing the delays or the lights?

Either way you seem miss informed. I assume you have experience of both???? Or is it all based on 'rumour'!! Merlin or EH 101 is a vey good SAR platform compared to the Sea King. Having operated both I know which I'd rather have - and it isn't yellow or red & grey.

[detgnome]

but I do believe the civ SAR already do overland SAR. Do Stornoway not go in to the mountains at night?

No.

I believe (more than happy to be corrected) that the MCA contract does not cater for overland SAR. That said tasks will be considered on merit and may be accepted after discusion between the MCA, RCC and the unit themselves. Stornoway have done mountain jobs before, although I seem to remember that was during the day. Whilst there will be many old Wessex and not so old 819 operators who will tell frankly scary stories of non-NVG mountains, I doubt that the MCA cabs venture in the mountains at night to conduct what mil operators would class as 'night mountains'

[MyTarget]

Hmmmmmmm must have been one of those dark dark days coming out of Ben Nevis then last year! Night mountains eh, how original!

[[email protected]]

Rottweiler - the difference in capability between mortal (non-NVG) mountains and NVG mountains is enormous, I have done both and wouldn't go back to mortal night flying. Stornoway do go into the mountains at night but with no NVG making them a lot braver than me

Bigtop - how am I misinformed? The 139 does not have a night wet winching capability at the moment and won't have for a while yet. The 101 is probably fine over-water as long as you don't mind the downwash (how many small vessels, surfers, kids on lilos or free swimmers/drowners have you done in it)? It is less suitable for cliffstickers, cragfast climbers or confined winching areas.

[NavyTorque]

Crab@ - You really are a fool

"Like so many others, you have believed the 'it must be cheaper to civilianise' argument just because it seems obvious if you don't know anything about SAR."...........

There you go again Crab - making assumptions! Well I'll let you into a secret; Rottweiler was flying SAR before you even started at Cranwell. Rottweiler has also flown extensive Civvy SAR.

Be very careful of your assumptions because again you touch on Civvy NVG CAA clearances and make wholly misinformed assumptions; I am sat next to the same CAA Flight Ops Inspector who was extremely interested in your suggestion that a (Commercial Air Transport) helicopter returning with a single engine failure should climb to 2000' and then Autorotate to the runway with 20 POB as a safer option! You even then continued to argue on that thread when the ex CAA Helo Perf Consultant pointed out the mathematics and probabilities of serials failures!!!

Before you start again - yes the Flight Ops Inspector was an Ex Military QHI (You would probably now resort to asking which service).

You continually set yourself up as the master of all things SAR when you have actually very limited and "blinkered" experience.

You talk about Military also probably being the cheapest - well I have also flown Military SAR and Civvy SAR - you may be surprised to know that Stornoway / Sumburgh / and Lee often would provide 24/7 SAR cover with ONE aircraft out of ONE and with 1 engineer and 1 labourer on Duty! My experience of Navy and RAF SAR squadrons was many more engineers and many more aircraft - I know I know that the military aircraft have other tasks etc but that doesn't present well from an economy point of view.

Now before you spout more of your opinions about civvy SAR let us all know what your experience of anything civvy is? I won't have the time to reply to all your doubtless comments because unlike you I am contracting now on a civvy Oil & Gas unit where manning is Lean (yes that is coming the RAF way too) and I do what I am paid to do and the company makes a profit (or not) and is accountable at the end of the year!

I would however be extremely interested in your opinion (if Harmonisation goes ahead) as to why you feel the need for ANY continued SAR exposure to RAF crews because as we all know CSAR and SAR have only the letters SAR in common and anyway SAR as you and I know it would be covered by the Royal Navy at sea - a secondary task all RN helo crews are trained in!

Finally can you assure us all that your ridiculous banter on here is restricted to your time "Off Duty"?

Look forward to interviewing you in the civvy world!

[NavyTorque]

You Doubt Incorrectly

I doubt that the MCA cabs venture in the mountains at night to conduct what mil operators would class as 'night mountains'

Detgnome for the record your doubt is incorrect - I have flown many missions at night for Stornoway Civvy MCA SAR "In the Mountains" negative NVG until the final throes of Bristows when NVG was available although handheld and limited!!!

Again guys; you are writing a lot of stuff on this forum based on what you think!!! Feel free to ask becaus ethere are many pilots out there who could "fill in the gaps" for you all.

Regards

[Vie sans frontieres]

Rottweiler was flying SAR before you even started at Cranwell

Is his age quoted as 38 because he's having a bit of a mid-life crisis then?

Oh, and I think the moderators may have a message for you.

[detgnome]

Navy Blah

There is a world of difference in what you can achieve in the mountains at night with NVG when compared to without, which is why I compared it to what mil operators would class as 'night mountains'. If all you have done is fly around with a pair of hand-held gogs then it might be a fair assumption that you are not aware of the difference in capability they bring and are therefore talking about things based on what you think. I believe that you will find many pilots able to 'fill in the gaps', just ask!

[NavyTorque]

Oh Dear DetGnome

I doubt that the MCA cabs venture in the mountains at night to conduct what mil operators would class as 'night mountains'

Oh dear DetGnome you as well as CRAB@ looking to blindly follow your assertion that Military SAR is the only SAR and if you talk to a Navy Guy it would be RAF SAR is the only SAR. Then if you spoke to another RAF base then you would prob argue Valley only really do SAR??

The point I make is that civvy SAR have done "Night Mountains" for many years.

I have flown military SAR before and after the introduction of NVG and civvy SAR without any NVG. I cannot recall a night mountain job I have done that was called off whereby NVG would have made the decision any different. It was usually cloud base over the Cullims that precluded a helo lift out.

yes NVG would undoubtedly have made many of the jobs safer but the point I was making is just stop assuming and ask! I remind you what you said....... "I doubt" and then went on to make your point!

Thank you for doubting on our behalf - perhaps you will be imagining soon for us all as well?

Regards

[edwardspannerhands]

MIRG question

Just a quick question for anyone on here who has experience flying any MIRG team - Are there any regulations / risk assessments regarding their kit? i.e. are their BA Sets classed as D.A.C.?

Thanks in advance

ES

[detgnome]

I cannot recall a night mountain job I have done that was called off whereby NVG would have made the decision any different

I don't know what kind of night mountain jobs you have been doing, but I have completed many where the transit to the area would not have been possible without NVG, yet alone the actual rescue itself.

NVG would undoubtedly have made many of the jobs safer

This is correct, but if this is how you view NVG then I would suggest that you have failed to fully appreciate the utility of NVG and the additional capability that they bring. As an aside, can I establish exactly what was your previous mil NVG experience?

[rottweiler]

Yes the age is incorrect, looks like somebody has rumbled me, but thanks for pointing it out, however cant be bothered changing it.

Yes I have extensive experience in a number of areas. Especially SAR, as the writer suggested both civ and mil.

There is a wealth of talent out there that is not confined to the military. You make incorrect statements on this forum which are obviously intended to mislead, or made through genuine ignorance. You ought to talk to your civilian counterparts then you may be able to reach out to people from a more informed position. However I strongly suspect your civilian counterparts will be reluctant to talk to you after having questioned their professionalism on so many occasions, even if it has only been by innuendos. You do yourself and your service no favours. I am sure you do talk to some recently de mobbed military counterparts who hold the same views through blind loyalty. Try taking a step back and look outside your bubble. To answer your question "Vie sans frontieres" it seems I would know a little about it. Never assume. However I am sure you will get all the info on your handover from crab@.

May I also suggest, that if it does get civilianised put in for one of the 60 positions, or volunteer for the front line. Having thought about it, even if you do put in for a position there could be a CRM issue with the civilians.

NVG blah blah blah, have any of you made any enquiries in to the kit on the S92, there is kit on their that is streets ahead of what you have and a great improvement to flight safety. But the civilians dont see the need to bleat on about it they just get on with it. I have tried to suggest but will now be blunt, the civilian crews, i would suggest on the whole are more experienced than there mil counterparts as 90% are ex mil.

detgnome, you are incorrect on the mountains issue i will give you stornoways number, however they will probably hang up on you.

[Vie sans frontieres]

NVG blah blah blah

Mmmm. Well reasoned argument. There speaks someone who's never worn them.