SARH to go

[Artic-Warrior]

Required to leave the SARF????

My understanding is that 66 mil posts are up for grabs and the MOD will decide WHO will get them, Yes or No?. The people who are not selected will then go into some other pool, Yes or No?
Or they can leave and try and obtain a seat (front or back) within the new employers set up.

If this is correct will the MOD let (acording to Crab) some 100 + aircrew just leave when they are already short in other areas. After all everybody signs up for a length of time. Can those allowed to leave get out in time to take up a post or will they have to gamble and leave early so to be available of said post??????
We have already 4 bases that are Civvi so they may require nothing in 2012 or type conversion in 2012. Possibly a rush in 2012 or not!!!!!!!!. If not then time to train.

[Clever Richard]

Pasptoo,

Forgive me for being a little too emphatic, I meant to say that not very many foreigners have been recruited by UK civvy SAR companies.

Arctic Warrior,

If the MoD try and retain so many aircrew that SAR-H can't be manned do you think the UK government will let that happen?

CD

[[email protected]]

pasptoo - If I missed your points, perhaps you have not made them clearly -

Yes, I agree that NVG ops and OC are perishable like IF if not used, that could also be used in the number of call outs a unit can expect – no? (Chivoner, Lossie, Gannet 300+, Wattisham, Lecon, Sumburgh 100+) I’m sure everyone has thrown away at least one job? (much to their professional annoyance.)

Do you mean we should accept a lesser capability because if we can't do a job we can throw it away? Not nice if you are the one who needs rescuing!

With the new aircraft, and perceived problems associated with the S92, will most not need re-training, current practice or not? I believe that the RN was non-NVG until about 5-6 years ago for SAR ops – they seem to cope reasonably well with “limited experience”. Prior to that it was white light overland – not something I’d relish.

Again not sure what your point is - the RN crews are in current SAR NVG practice - that is why they can do what they do. Any non-current SAR NVG pilots will have far more training required than a simple type conversion (which doesn't take long in civvystrasse because it costs money).

I understand that RN SAR pilots until recently were multi tour guys/girls with a solid aviation background at both sea and shore before going into the more “dedicated” SAR jobs. Small ship flights would be on SAR standby as soon as the ship left the harbour wall until it got back. No “seconds” just “first standby” 24/7!

Sadly the second sentence cost you a crew and a Lynx a couple of years ago - dedicated SAR means exactly that - it's not a secondary role when you train and perform it properly. I didn't say that RN SAR was full of first tourists, just that many of those who do it don't make a career out of it.

From basic flight school I was told there was more than one way to skin a cat! Everyone can learn from everyone else, don’t close the training office door! I assume from your “user name” you have done an exchange tour? Did you learn how they did their business differently, did you try to persuade them the RAF way or did you both learn from each other? I would like to think the later would make everyone a richer more rounded person.

So why is it that everyone is queuing up to tell the RAF how to do SAR - do they all think they have nothing to learn from us? All we hear is that there are other, better, cheaper ways to do it the way we do - usually from those who have no idea how we do business or the capability we maintain.

I agree that most winchmen/radops/winchops/aircrewmen/obs (paramedics) will require to come from a preset path, however the drivers could come from many areas providing they have the requisite skills. You could train some paramedics to be winchmen? Air Knight guys will be somewhat down the line from military SAR currency if they are successful, does that make them any less capable?

I don't know what you know about Air Knight that the rest of us don't but current front-line SAR is current front-line SAR whatever the uniform. The CG winchmen do the same paramedic training as the mil guys and at the same place (Oh look that was done through the RAF as well!)

We fly a lot of paramedics to familiarise them with what we do and how we can help them - how many of them would be prepared to face the physical danger a winchman does on SAROPs - precious few! And of those, how many would have the aptitude? Don't forget, SAR rearcrew are volunteers for good reasons.

According to your logic re NVG training - why don't the airlines take me instead of a trained person to fly 747s, after all I have 100 hours of single jet in my logbook and all I need are a few courses? Oh yes, I remember - it's cost of training and that is the issue regarding non-current SAR pilots and rearcrew vs current military crews - you get a proven recent track record and all the transferrable skill sets - you just add a type conversion and away you go - cheap as chips!


Geoffers - we are not replacing the SARF because it costs a lot (and like everyone else you assume it is more expensive without any figures to prove it) we are replacing a military SARF with a hybrid because the MoD has failed to invest in medium lift helicopters for the last 20 years and the ones we are using now are getting old and tired.

We started down the SARH path because of the ambitions of a previous Chief Coastguard and what could have been solved with a PFI for power by the hour on a new aircraft whilst retaining the present structure, has turned into a monster that will cost £3 -5 Billion for the next 25 years without bringing any new capability to the role.

All those who think it will be a civilian controlled environment are forgetting that the MoD is footing 70% of the bill for SARH so the defence budget is still hammered, there will always be a mil presence in SAR, and no-one will save any money.

[C.King]

we are not replacing the SARF because it costs a lot (and like everyone else you assume it is more expensive without any figures to prove it) we are replacing a military SARF with a hybrid because the MoD has failed to invest in medium lift helicopters for the last 20 years and the ones we are using now are getting old and tired.

Would it be unfair to suggest that an equally (more?) valid reason was that it was finally accepted that UK SAR is not 'core' business for the armed forces who are mighty stretched at the moment; and that rest tours and transferring additional skills back to the front-line notwithstanding (both of which might be moot points for the existing RAF setup) there are better things for the MOD to do with their assets (which includes the aircrew).

To paraphrase a flag rank some time ago "I'm struggling for a/c and crews in 'stan, so why on earth would I want to have NVG trained, Mountain experienced crews sitiing on their a***'s in the UK"

Priorities !

[[email protected]]

C King - a more accurate assessment would be: facing the results of ignoring the need for more SH (NAO report in 02 I think) due to important investments like Bowman and Typhoon - the MoD has failed in its duty to supply enough front-line helicopters (and crews) to the ops in progress.

Moving SAR to a PFI won't provide any more SH helicopters (because you need better aircraft than the Sea King) and precious few crews (who might be NVG and mountain qualified but are not tactically trained).

We have already been reduced to 4 crews per flight but this has mostly been managed by not posting in replacements as guys and girls move on to other flts/retirement/QHI/promotion etc - I suspect the number that have gone to swell the SH cadre is in single figures. Shawbury is pumping out baby SH crews by the dozen but it's no good if there are not the aircraft to fly nor the infrastructure to train them.

The MoD may have decided (erronoeusly) that SAR isn't core business because it is non-deployable (with the present platform) and non-warfighting - but that is because they don't understand (or choose to ignore) what we do and that bravery and devotion to duty isn't confined to the battlefield.

The Flag Officer who thinks that all SAR crews do is sit on their asses clearly has his head up his own.

How about freeing all those 2 1/2s from pointless staff jobs or DHFS or ground appointments if he wants experienced crews in the 'stan??? Oh no that doesn't match the 'blame SAR for all our woes' mantra.

[Spanish Waltzer]

To paraphrase a flag rank some time ago "I'm struggling for a/c and crews in 'stan, so why on earth would I want to have NVG trained, Mountain experienced crews sitiing on their a***'s in the UK"

Because the harrier/chinook/apache/typhoon...(ok maybe not yet ) guys who are doing such fantastic work supporting coalition troops in the sandpits for and on behalf of that flag rank need to be trained and train themselves before they deploy and know with confidence that if things go wrong at that stage then those NVG trained mountain experienced crews sitting on their a***'s in the UK will respond and come help immediately.

Because the British public who traditionally don't really quite understand what it is that the boys are doing in the sandpits although, thanks to the red tops and charities such as H4H, are now becoming more aware & support the guys more but in their eyes actually saving little Jimmy from the tide/mountains/lilo is what the UK military & Coastguard helos are renowned for and continue to receive fantastic public support for and therefore in turn provides fantastic PR for the UK military - needed in these difficult times & same argument as to why the reds are kept.

Because the UK stands committed to providing its international commitment to SAR provision for its region and unlike other nations is actually able to fully meet that commitment.

Because as things stand at the moment the UK military has a commitment to provide a significant proportion of that SAR capability so dont go blaming the guys and girls that are doing (very well) the job they have been given.

Because when the **** hits the fan in the UK through natural disaster / terrorism / large scale, mass casualty accidents / human nature and failings thereof the UK public are grateful & proud that there is a rehearsed and proven system in the UK that responds professionally and gets on with the job 24/7 in any weather.

Of course a 100% civilian provided service could and probably in a few years will provide an equally professional service for the UK masses to be proud of but you only have to look at foot & mouth, fireman strikes etc to see how quickly the UK fall back on their military for support in times of crisis.

Also the argument for employing guys in 'rest' tours will never be won either way but it is simple human nature that if you dont give them a chance to rest they will quickly become exhausted & disillusioned and look elsewhere for employment, taking their experience and abilites with them. I've always wondered whether the general RN ethos of SAR as a rest tour or the RAF ethos of SAR as a career has the stronger argument. Both have massive advantages and disadvantages. Both work for their own Service needs, both provide a professional SAR service. Both would be equally welcome should I need their services on a dark night but the arguement continues. I just feel the UK population as a whole are lucky to be in a position where effective SAR cover, whether RAF/RN/CG comes with the territory.

SW

[arandcee]

Crab, SW:

[wrecking ball]

is crab waivering?

Crab,

There is a definate tone of resignation in your latest posts compared to those in the earlier pages. I am looking forward to Chiv becoming a civvy base, 6 shifts a month, no secondary duties, 250+ jobs a year and knowing your there until retirement. Fella, life on the civvy side does have its advantages once you get used to and then ignore the corporate attitudes that they try and apply to SAR. A close colleague of mine said 2 and a half years ago " the truth will out" and he was so right. Look forward to visiting the old base in the not to distant future just to re famil myself with the old haunts, ready for 2012 and the delights of transition. Hmm an S92 over Baggy. Now there is an interesting proposition on a slack wind day!! Adios Amigo!

[detgnome]

6 shifts a month

I think you'll find that it is going to be more like 8. Whilst some aspects will undoubtedly be easier under a civillian system, don't forget that an employer will employ no more crews than necessary and will extract between 90-100% of the maximum that CAA and other limitations allow.

[Justintime80]

I think you'll find that it is going to be more like 8

Nope your wrong it will be closer to 6 than 8

If the civ's work everyone up to 2000 hr's WTD there would be no flex
if someone goes sick and Pilot's/Crewmen are working to the max they can't or won't ( looking forward to that bit) step in to cover, so the company will pick up a large penalty.
It's a no brainer really but hey they will be a private company so who knows how they think.
Me I think keeping crews around 1800-1900 would be sensible.

[[email protected]]

Wrecking Ball - a few years ago I still though there might be chance of avoiding the SARH transition - naively hoping that someone in MoD/Govt would see what they were throwing away and just cough up some cash for new helos.

Now I am resigned to the inevitability but slightly heartened that the SARH process with the inputs from the military SMEs has at least ensured that what comes in 2012 will be as good as we can possibly make it.

There is still a worry that the contract will go to the cheapest bidder who will have skimped on training to make profit but I am told that the financial element of the bid only counts towards 10% of the scoring - hhhmmmmmm I'll wait out on that one.

Don't expect Chiv to be civilianised until 2016 or so, it will probably be one of the last to go (along with Wattisham) because we operate the Mk 3A instead of the very knackered Mk 3s.

I believe the WTD requires 5.7 crews per flight to work so 6 shifts a month is very likely - there might even need to be more crews than that at some flights to cope with the Falklands manning. This is apparently saving money post 2012 - we are presently downsizing to 4 crews per flight and wondering why we can't plug all the gaps or comply with the WTD!

Cheaper? No.

Better? New aircraft will make a difference but it will hinge on who gets employed and how much training they do.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Gentlemen

You lot continue to amaze me. What sort of world do you imagine we are now living in. This morning they announced that funds for the NHS will be cut CUT CUT.

Wake up - please. CRAB is concerned that we will have a cheap and cheerful service. We should count our lucky stars if there is a service of any kind left after the reality of the dire state of public funding becomes clear.

We as a nation recently had our credit-worthiness reduced by international credit rating agencies and they are not daft. We are sitting on a time bomb whilst Gordie and his team pretend that actually there is a bottomless pit of cash and we can continue as if nothing has happened. The current government does not want to sack all the people it's employed in public services because they are the people they think will vote for them. Actually those are the ones that are intelligent enough to see through the smoke screen and are too ashamed to vote for anybody.

Watch this space, the pain has yet to begin.

G.

[L2driver]

When reading this thread, I get the feeling that some people think that the RAF is the only institution that can provide professional SAR service. Have a look at this:

Many congratulations to our Stornoway-based Coastguard helicopter winchman Phil Warrington, who was yesterday (Thursday June 4 2009) presented with The Billy Deacon SAR Memorial Trophy in recognition of a courageous rescue operation last year.

Phil was presented with the trophy at the Air League’s Annual Awards Ceremony at Buckingham Palace by HRH Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh.

The full 2009 citation reads:

At 0530am on February 1 2008 Coastguard Rescue Helicopter 100, based at Stornoway, was called out to assist a Spanish fishing vessel, the Spinningdale, which had run aground at St Kilda with 14 persons onboard.

The stricken vessel was lying on rocks immediately below cliffs, with waves crashing over its entire length, and there was concern that it may be in immediate danger of capsizing.

When the aircraft reached the scene, weather conditions were extremely hostile, with winds gusting to 70 knots causing severe turbulence. Snow showers were also moving through, greatly compromising visibility, and the sea state was described as severe.

The winching operation was undertaken from a height of approximately 130 feet – significantly higher than normal, but necessary to preserve aircraft safety because of the potential risks posed by the turbulence.

Winch operator Larry Slater skilfully worked with pilot Liz Forsyth and co pilot Michael Melaye to position the aircraft above the Spinningdale and deliver winchman Phil Warrington to the deck of the vessel.

Once on deck Phil immediately took charge of the situation and started the recovery of the crew, placing two at a time in strops and ensuring the safe dispatch of the crewman to the helicopter via the winch. The conditions were so severe that each time a wave broke over the vessel, Phil had to hang on to the guard rails to avoid being washed over the side by the mountainous waves.

He endured these conditions for 30 minutes until all 14 crew had been recovered to the aircraft before finally being winched back to the helicopter.

Phil and Larry then immediately set about checking crew members for injuries or hypothermia during the return flight.

Phil displayed outstanding bravery and professionalism, descending to the deck without hesitation in appalling conditions to ensure the safe rescue of the entire crew of the fishing vessel.

This was done by a civilian crew (CHC) using the S-92. Whether some of them worked in the military in the past is not really interesting. They are now working in the civilian world and know their job.

[Epiphany]

The Flag Officer who thinks that all SAR crews do is sit on their asses clearly has his head up his own.

The amount of time you spend on Pprune makes me wonder. Still - if you only work 6 days per month then I suppose it is no surprise.

Geoffers - you are trying to reason with someone who has spent his working life in the RAF. You and I and anyone else who has left the miltary to work as a civilian know how insulated we were from lifes realities. I have learned more about survival as a civilian than I ever did on my CSRO course - and much more about flying come to that.

[212man]

The Billy Deacon SAR Memorial Trophy

Bill, of course, being a Bristow Crewman at the time of his tragic death.

[[email protected]]

This was done by a civilian crew (CHC) using the S-92. Whether some of them worked in the military in the past is not really interesting. They are now working in the civilian world and know their job

Not interesting that the Captain (Liz) was trained by the RAF SARF? It further reinforces my statements that quality will out and my belief that military SAR will have to provide a lot of the manpower to make SARH effective.

Just how many non-ex-mil SAR captains/winch ops/winchmen are there working UK SAR?

Geoffers - your arguments about cost only go to support the idea that civilianisation is an expensive option - retaining the present format but with a PFI for new aircraft would be substantially cheaper than the £3-5Bn price tag for SARH.

Epiphany - I worked as a civilian before I joined the RAF and learned that whilst talking a good fight is one thing, proving your worth by the strength of your arm and back and willingness to work is what people notice. That old adage about actions speaking louder than words means the RAF can hold a candle to ANY SAR organisation in the world and not disappoint.

You missed the point that 6 shifts will be what the civilians will work, not what the military are currently working!

[Clever Richard]

Can anyone provide a rough break down of figures showing how SAR-H is going to save money? As a taxpayer, I would be interested to know.
CD

[Jackonicko]

It will prevent the need for HMG to stump up a really major amount to recapitalise the helicopter fleet by buying new aircraft.

It won't save money over the long term, like all these PFIs and PPPs. You save big blobs of capital investment and pay more in lease costs, including profits for the provider.

And you end up dumping a gold standard, 'money no object' based military service for a lowest cost, lowest bidder commercial one.

[calli]

Re: Billy Deacon award

Whilst it is true to say that the aircraft Captain on the Spinningdale rescue was trained by the RAF, it is fair to say that any of the current (highly experienced) Captains at Stornoway could have carried out their part in the rescue equally well. The Stornoway 'patch' gives vast experience in mountain/coastal/cliff rescues in extremely hostile weather and dark nights(not much cultural lighting).


Remember that the winch-op plays a massive role in the successful or otherwise outcome of this kind of job. And it is not just bravery that is required from the winchman, but it is also a job that requires the ability to control a deteriorating situation in order that everyone can be safely evacuated.

This crew was a mix of ex Navy, ex RAF and ex foreign Navy - and it worked. It would equally have worked with any of the civilian trained crew from Stornoway - it is just chance who is on shift when the 'high profile' job comes in.

[L2driver]

As I said, it doesnt matter where people come from as long as they are competent in their job.
RAF is not the only institution that knows something about SAR. There is f.ex very good AWSAR coverage at several Norwegian oilfields, and the service has been there for many years. Paid for by the oil companies, but frequently used by the Rescue Coordination Centres. This is not the same as Jigsaw.
The service is now being upgraded with EC225's with all the goodies installed. Many people doing this job are not from the military. I am though, and after 30 years offshore I am humble enough to realize that coming from the Air Force did not give me all the answers. There is no difference in quality if selection and training are optimized.