SARH to go
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Crab
I think you'll find the Mod has pushed the bidders to Mil registration as the IPT have stated that military crews will not be licensed. Something to do with colour of grass!
The CAA will accept NVG etc and are quite happy to go down the state aircraft route but they will not go against JAR OPS (rules) and EASA ( come 2012 - law) and allow you to use the old 'rule 26 - mil aircrew flying civvy machines to carry out their duty'.
I think you'll find the Mod has pushed the bidders to Mil registration as the IPT have stated that military crews will not be licensed. Something to do with colour of grass!
The CAA will accept NVG etc and are quite happy to go down the state aircraft route but they will not go against JAR OPS (rules) and EASA ( come 2012 - law) and allow you to use the old 'rule 26 - mil aircrew flying civvy machines to carry out their duty'.
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Is the conversation about charity funded SAR serious?
Devon maintains two Air Ambulances through charitable donations and as advanced as they may be surely charitably funded SAR would be significantly more pricey?
AFAIK they only operate in the light, two crew(?), and an SAR machine is of course much larger/more complicated etc etc
Could you get one SAR machine for two air Ambulances (Ambuli?)
Compared to the one SAR machine you get, how many SAR helicopters of all colours are based in the SW Peninsular? Perhaps if you sell the Cornish AA and another county one (Dorset?) you could get another SAR helicopter?
Sorry if I'm taking this too seriously, or perhaps over-simplifying the argument. Do the RNLI have helicopters or have I mis-interpreted Rottweiler's comment?
Please ignore or flame at will . . .
Devon maintains two Air Ambulances through charitable donations and as advanced as they may be surely charitably funded SAR would be significantly more pricey?
AFAIK they only operate in the light, two crew(?), and an SAR machine is of course much larger/more complicated etc etc
Could you get one SAR machine for two air Ambulances (Ambuli?)
Compared to the one SAR machine you get, how many SAR helicopters of all colours are based in the SW Peninsular? Perhaps if you sell the Cornish AA and another county one (Dorset?) you could get another SAR helicopter?
Sorry if I'm taking this too seriously, or perhaps over-simplifying the argument. Do the RNLI have helicopters or have I mis-interpreted Rottweiler's comment?
Please ignore or flame at will . . .
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UK SAR Industrial Action?
A friend in civvy-SAR has just told me that CHC is haemorrhaging money from the UK SAR contract and is about to make swingeing cuts. No pay rise, roster changes, no leave and even possible redundancies.
Blame is being laid at the amateurish management, poor planning and lack of knowledge about SAR. Obviously the Pilots are livid and BALPA are backing them up. Watch this space...
Blame is being laid at the amateurish management, poor planning and lack of knowledge about SAR. Obviously the Pilots are livid and BALPA are backing them up. Watch this space...
Shades of Ruskin!
Common Law of Business Balance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I wonder if Bristows will need a transition team to get it all back to square one?
Talking of transition teams.....I bet they got shafted too!
Common Law of Business Balance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I wonder if Bristows will need a transition team to get it all back to square one?
Talking of transition teams.....I bet they got shafted too!
Sounds like the history of the GOM!
Sarowl - strangely, we had a visit from Soteria (CHCs partners in SARH) last week and they, by all accounts, were very upbeat and positive. Time will tell
Goodness me! Maybe I was right and there really is more to SAR than just civilianising it because it looks cheaper (if you don't know too much about it that is)
Goodness me! Maybe I was right and there really is more to SAR than just civilianising it because it looks cheaper (if you don't know too much about it that is)
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Bristows managed it cheaper and more efficient for 20 years maybe they should get it back. Anyway crab how do you know it’s cheaper you can’t tell us how much you cost, too embarrassed maybe.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Mr Rottweiler,
If Crab doesn't know how much MilSAR costs you obviously do otherwise you wouldn't be able to state that Bristows did it cheaper and more efficiently for 20 years.
Please provide a cost comparison at your earliest convenience.
CD
If Crab doesn't know how much MilSAR costs you obviously do otherwise you wouldn't be able to state that Bristows did it cheaper and more efficiently for 20 years.
Please provide a cost comparison at your earliest convenience.
CD
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A friend in civvy-SAR has just told me that CHC is haemorrhaging money from the UK SAR contract and is about to make swingeing cuts. No pay rise, roster changes, no leave and even possible redundancies.
Blame is being laid at the amateurish management, poor planning and lack of knowledge about SAR. Obviously the Pilots are livid and BALPA are backing them up. Watch this space...
An acquaintance advises its already started at CHC ABZ/UK who are seeking voluntary redundancies all round or flexible working with reduction in wages for certain non flying/non eng type disciplines.
The late CHC founder Craig Dobbin will be turning in his grave - it's an absolute disgrace
Blame is being laid at the amateurish management, poor planning and lack of knowledge about SAR. Obviously the Pilots are livid and BALPA are backing them up. Watch this space...
An acquaintance advises its already started at CHC ABZ/UK who are seeking voluntary redundancies all round or flexible working with reduction in wages for certain non flying/non eng type disciplines.
The late CHC founder Craig Dobbin will be turning in his grave - it's an absolute disgrace
Last edited by jcheeverloophole; 26th Feb 2009 at 10:21.
Yes Rottweiler - I would love to see those figures...cheaper AND more efficient for 20 years.... that must be why they lost the interim contract then
Bristows crews had an excellent record in UK SAR and I believe their crews provided the backbone of the CHC effort when the contract changed. None of the cock-ups and problems are about crews, it is all about management, or lack of it, and money.
Bristows crews had an excellent record in UK SAR and I believe their crews provided the backbone of the CHC effort when the contract changed. None of the cock-ups and problems are about crews, it is all about management, or lack of it, and money.
The closely fought contest pitted CHC against the current operator, Bristow Helicopters, and British International Helicopters teamed with EADS.Although the interim five-year contract is expected to be worth only about £50 million ($86 million), the competitors saw it as an important stepping-stone to the larger SAR Harmonisation project, which envisages replacing all the UK’s existing civil and military SAR helicopter fleet from 2012.
Sounds just like the old Police air support unit story! Next thing you know the resident SAR pilots will be suggesting direct employment to the MCA!
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 26th Feb 2009 at 20:20.
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Isn't one of the bidders backed by RBS - given todays announcement about losses , wont be any money in the coffers then
Will one of the bidders kindly leave and close the door behind them
Will one of the bidders kindly leave and close the door behind them
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Soteria is effectively RBS - way too many fingers in the MCA pie there I think. - RBS and off shoots of! I suggest BT knows very well that the Transition team people didn't really have a very nice time of it and if Crab knew the real reason Bristows were divested of the contract he'd be violently ill, go and check his wardrobe was made up entirely of saville row suits and that there wasn't a bit of smart casual in site!! Because a bad night on Ben is going to look a dream after five minutes with the civil service!!
I mean that Crab! - It wasn't funny!
I mean that Crab! - It wasn't funny!
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Clever Richard- Cost- That’s the real easy bit. Manpower is the most significant overhead or cost for any employer. MOD more so than anybody else, so all you have to do is compare manning. Go work it out for yourself as you are obviously Military. I am poacher come gamekeeper, have seen it from both sides, it’s a no brainer. Also it’s unlikely to affect me, so have no axe to grind except to stop the waste I have experienced. Mind you waste is not confined to the Military.
If your charity run Air Ambulance who also holds down a day job can give you running , start up and all other costs, why can’t MOD. As for working out the costs let the three big companies Auditors see your books, they will work it out for you, but then probably put in a bigger bid. By the way is there any truth in the rumour that UK Mil SAR has achieved the staggering serviceability rate of 72%. Even the Air Ambulance, bless their cotton socks achieves a significantly higher serviceability.
If your charity run Air Ambulance who also holds down a day job can give you running , start up and all other costs, why can’t MOD. As for working out the costs let the three big companies Auditors see your books, they will work it out for you, but then probably put in a bigger bid. By the way is there any truth in the rumour that UK Mil SAR has achieved the staggering serviceability rate of 72%. Even the Air Ambulance, bless their cotton socks achieves a significantly higher serviceability.
Tonka - that is a very intriguing post, would you care to elaborate (even by pm and discretion assured)
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Just read this today on BBC News
Liberal Democrat defence spokesman Nick Harvey said: "This report shows that the MoD is riddled with incompetence.
Looks like even the Liberal Democrats have rumbled you.
Liberal Democrat defence spokesman Nick Harvey said: "This report shows that the MoD is riddled with incompetence.
Looks like even the Liberal Democrats have rumbled you.
all you have to do is compare manning
If so, then you're not comparing like with like. Each mil SAR unit has 2 aircraft and crews for both aircraft (current manning crisis permitting!) and a permanent overseas commitment. Unsurprisingly, the mil units need more people as they are providing a greater (NB - greater, I'm not saying better) service. If 2nd Standby is dropped, and mil SAR units operated a newer, less labour-intensive aircraft, and the Falklands commitment was removed, the manning requirement would drop significantly - which rather destroys your argument about manning costs.
Nor should 2nd Standby be frivolously cast aside - even in the last year or two, there has been plenty of trade for the 2nds aircraft all round the country, either assisting the 1st Standby at a major incident (floods passim, train crash etc), or dealing with a separate incident.
And did I hear recently that the SAR-H people aren't even going to undertake a direct comparison of the cost of a mil aircrew personage with a civ aircrew personage of the same trade? Could it be that the result of such a comparison would expose the fallacy of the inexplicable 'max 66 mil aircrew in SAR-H' policy?
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Rottweiler,
Excuse the pun but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not military but have worked in the procurement world for some time hence my interest in your post earlier in this thread.
I'll take your response to my original question as 'don't know' unless, in the light of my civilian status, you are able to provide more details on those costings of civ v mil SAR.
CD
Excuse the pun but you are barking up the wrong tree. I am not military but have worked in the procurement world for some time hence my interest in your post earlier in this thread.
I'll take your response to my original question as 'don't know' unless, in the light of my civilian status, you are able to provide more details on those costings of civ v mil SAR.
CD