The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions
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R22 Lateral C of G
Hi guys,
Anyone know where I can see some sample lateral c of g calculations done out. Im fine with the longitudinal but for some reason my mind is gone blank with regards the lateral.
Thanks and merry christmas!!!
Anyone know where I can see some sample lateral c of g calculations done out. Im fine with the longitudinal but for some reason my mind is gone blank with regards the lateral.
Thanks and merry christmas!!!
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The R22 corner: Owning, flying & training questions
When I trained for my PPL(H) I did so in the R22 I passed and progressed onto the R44, I enjoyed my flying and enjoyed the responsibility of the pre flight and after flight checks, being an ex farmer and involved with heavy Road transport I have a rudimentry knowledge of how mechanics work and what should be tight in order to be safe. During my early solo flying I cocked up twice, my fault I took my eye of the ball (so to speak) but managed to recover and carry on to land. I am able to admit to my failings in those two flights,...... sadly many flight dont have an outcome like I did, and we read many times about the sad ending of life whilst flying helicopters at my level mainly Robinsons( because they are the chepest to run) But one burning question ................,
Has there ever been a fatal ending to a Robinson flight, were the RHC have taken or accepted any form of responsibilty, or has it always been down to the driver?
Many of you out there say much about how bad they are, but can we get some accurate feedback on this!
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
Has there ever been a fatal ending to a Robinson flight, were the RHC have taken or accepted any form of responsibilty, or has it always been down to the driver?
Many of you out there say much about how bad they are, but can we get some accurate feedback on this!
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
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Re: C-FICL
This is what I was able to find, BH.
Factual Report
Probable Cause
Peter R-B
In response to your question, I am unaware of any direct acceptance of liabality on the manufacturer's part, but, they have adapted their aircraft in response to common accidents/incidents on their types.
2 examples would be the addition of the throttle governor as a 'non-optional' piece of equipment, and the carb heat correlator on the R44s.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows.
a loss of control and the divergence of the main rotor blade system from its normal rotational path for undetermined reasons
a loss of control and the divergence of the main rotor blade system from its normal rotational path for undetermined reasons
Probable Cause
Peter R-B
In response to your question, I am unaware of any direct acceptance of liabality on the manufacturer's part, but, they have adapted their aircraft in response to common accidents/incidents on their types.
2 examples would be the addition of the throttle governor as a 'non-optional' piece of equipment, and the carb heat correlator on the R44s.
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Knievel
May i sugguest you have a look at this site www.aaib.dft.gov.uk
Its the air investigations website and there is a monthly bulletin.
Do a search for R22 and it will give you all the accidents over the yesars. I found this incredibly informative and regularly discussed the accidents with my instructor and how to avoid the situations that have caused them.
Personally i find the reports extremely useful and if any good is to come from these accidents or tragic loss of life, its that guys like you and me dont make the same mistakes.
May i sugguest you have a look at this site www.aaib.dft.gov.uk
Its the air investigations website and there is a monthly bulletin.
Do a search for R22 and it will give you all the accidents over the yesars. I found this incredibly informative and regularly discussed the accidents with my instructor and how to avoid the situations that have caused them.
Personally i find the reports extremely useful and if any good is to come from these accidents or tragic loss of life, its that guys like you and me dont make the same mistakes.
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4ftHover,
Thank you very much for that link.
I have to say, I wasn't sure how I would be accepted on this forum as i'm a novice and the title says that 'Rotorheads is a haven for professional helicopter pilots' of which I am not, but i'd just like to thank everyone for all of their help and advice so far, it is very much appreciated.
Long may it continue!
Thank you very much for that link.
I have to say, I wasn't sure how I would be accepted on this forum as i'm a novice and the title says that 'Rotorheads is a haven for professional helicopter pilots' of which I am not, but i'd just like to thank everyone for all of their help and advice so far, it is very much appreciated.
Long may it continue!
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Knieval77
A long time ago I was in a similar position and thought the Pros would Blow me out being just a PPL(H) I found all of them to be absolutely brilliant at giving advice, I feel the qualification is PURE COMMON SENSE these guys are good and will pass on info to help keep simple folks like me in the air without trauma, Fly with any of them shows you your shortcommings.
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
A long time ago I was in a similar position and thought the Pros would Blow me out being just a PPL(H) I found all of them to be absolutely brilliant at giving advice, I feel the qualification is PURE COMMON SENSE these guys are good and will pass on info to help keep simple folks like me in the air without trauma, Fly with any of them shows you your shortcommings.
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
KNIEVEL77, I assume you'll be flying with Northumbria Helicopters up at EGNT. You'll be in very capable hands if you fly with Scott. Not sure who else is up there now as it's a while since I worked there. They have only had one accident up there which without doubt was due to pilot error. Low time PPL got it wrong. Many witnesses to the incident I think, including some Heli instructors who saw it happen. No big deal. Fly safe within your limits and well within a/c limitations and you will have no worries. Even if things do go a bit pear shaped, you will be trained how to deal with it.
The problems start when a low time PPL becomes over confident in his abilities, trying something he hasn't been trained for. ie hovering where he shouldn't (on top of fence posts, crocodiles heads etc???
)
If you want advanced training, do it with an instructor, not from a Youtube video.
Most of all, have fun and enjoy it. It's a very rewarding thing to gain that PPL(H).
The problems start when a low time PPL becomes over confident in his abilities, trying something he hasn't been trained for. ie hovering where he shouldn't (on top of fence posts, crocodiles heads etc???
) If you want advanced training, do it with an instructor, not from a Youtube video.
Most of all, have fun and enjoy it. It's a very rewarding thing to gain that PPL(H).
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Hello Helimutt,
Yes, I will be training with Northumbria Helicopter and hopefully Scott, i've heard a lot of good things about him.
I know Neil Clark, the owner, from my days working at the BBC, we used to hire his aircraft regularly so at least I already have a decent rapore with him before even start!
I'm popping up to see them next week just to finalize things so fingers crossed this time next month I should be on my way.
K77.
Yes, I will be training with Northumbria Helicopter and hopefully Scott, i've heard a lot of good things about him.
I know Neil Clark, the owner, from my days working at the BBC, we used to hire his aircraft regularly so at least I already have a decent rapore with him before even start!
I'm popping up to see them next week just to finalize things so fingers crossed this time next month I should be on my way.
K77.
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K77,
A year or so ago, I was in a position similar to yours: just getting started with helicopters (but with 40+ years in airplanes) and planning to fly the R22. I was concerned about the R22 safety record and did estensive research into accidents, reading all 400+ accident reports on the U.S. NTSB website, the special report published by the FAA about 1996, and also doing the Robinson factory Safety Course via DVD. Frank Robinson has staed that the R22/R44 are safe if flown within the approved operating envelope. My research seems to confirm that statement to be correct, however, it also suggests that the approved operating envelope is so narrow that inexperienced pilots have difficuly remaining in the approved envelope, even with an instructor in the left seat. After flying the R22 for about 25 hours, I concluded that, for me, there was a sufficient level of concern that I stopped flying the R22 and moved on to the Enstrom 480B and Bell 407, both of which are considerably more forgiving, and wildly more expensive. Each must make his own call on this issue.
EN48
A year or so ago, I was in a position similar to yours: just getting started with helicopters (but with 40+ years in airplanes) and planning to fly the R22. I was concerned about the R22 safety record and did estensive research into accidents, reading all 400+ accident reports on the U.S. NTSB website, the special report published by the FAA about 1996, and also doing the Robinson factory Safety Course via DVD. Frank Robinson has staed that the R22/R44 are safe if flown within the approved operating envelope. My research seems to confirm that statement to be correct, however, it also suggests that the approved operating envelope is so narrow that inexperienced pilots have difficuly remaining in the approved envelope, even with an instructor in the left seat. After flying the R22 for about 25 hours, I concluded that, for me, there was a sufficient level of concern that I stopped flying the R22 and moved on to the Enstrom 480B and Bell 407, both of which are considerably more forgiving, and wildly more expensive. Each must make his own call on this issue.
EN48
EN48, I feel that your statement
is slightly unfair. Sufficient level of concern? Do you mean in your own abilities as a rotary wing pilot, having been a plank driver so long? Are you suggesting that instructors are having problems flying them within limits too?
The R22 was never built for aerobatics or advanced flying manuevres. It is a starter level helicopter which brought affordable(ish) relatively safe heli flying to the masses, which is exactly what Mr R wanted.
I know many inexperienced pilots, having trained a couple too, and they manage to stay within the envelope. Flying in bad weather, trying things you have no experience of, is where you'll make mistakes, not just flying as the manual states. I'd love to know why you think it's difficult to fly inside the envelope. I'd flown them for 13 years and had no problems myself, along with the majority of pilots here I bet. A bigger machine is generally always going to be more docile. Cost is always a factor. As you associated more risk to a smaller machine, you chose the bigger one. The number of R22 accidents is higher than other types, generally because there are more of them about and they are being used in a training environment and by low timers. Let's not get into another position like the late Lu Z. RIP.
They are what they are and everyone has their own comfort zone/ability.
As for doing a Robinson Factory Safety course by DVD? Bet there was a lot of mileage in that.
it also suggests that the approved operating envelope is so narrow that inexperienced pilots have difficuly remaining in the approved envelope, even with an instructor in the left seat.
The R22 was never built for aerobatics or advanced flying manuevres. It is a starter level helicopter which brought affordable(ish) relatively safe heli flying to the masses, which is exactly what Mr R wanted.
I know many inexperienced pilots, having trained a couple too, and they manage to stay within the envelope. Flying in bad weather, trying things you have no experience of, is where you'll make mistakes, not just flying as the manual states. I'd love to know why you think it's difficult to fly inside the envelope. I'd flown them for 13 years and had no problems myself, along with the majority of pilots here I bet. A bigger machine is generally always going to be more docile. Cost is always a factor. As you associated more risk to a smaller machine, you chose the bigger one. The number of R22 accidents is higher than other types, generally because there are more of them about and they are being used in a training environment and by low timers. Let's not get into another position like the late Lu Z. RIP.
They are what they are and everyone has their own comfort zone/ability.
As for doing a Robinson Factory Safety course by DVD? Bet there was a lot of mileage in that.
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Hmutt,
It was not my intent to be unfair, just to call it as I see it. Others have and will come to different conclusions. What tipped the balance for me was the FAA special safety report published in the mid 90's. This report examined around fifty fatal accidents which had occurred to that time for which there was no clear cause. The accident scenarios have a remarkable similarity: low time student (0-4 hours) flying with instructor crash killing both. The report attributed the cause to a loss of main rotor control resulting from an abrupt, unanticipated cyclic input by the student. Within 2 revolutions, the main rotor flaps down and chops off the tail boom, and this happens faster than the instructor can respond. Some will respond, "Dont make abrupt cyclic inputs," and this is excellent advice, but the real world is a bit more complicated.
The R22 is in many ways a brilliant design. As far as I can tell, a very small per centage of accidents are due to mechanical failure. However, in the interest of performance and cost, it is also a somewhat primitive design, which by necessity asks more of the pilot. I'd rather have more margin for error while I am learning, and then accept a smaller margin when I am more proficient. This is a tradeoff which each who puts his ass on the line needs top decide for himself.
The RHC Safety Course on DVD is actually quite valuable IMO - not as good as going to the factory in person, but better than not having this exposure. (Obviously, the DVD covers only the ground schooll portion of the course.) I have flown with a few R22 instructors (all in the category of "students teaching students," i.e. just a few hundred TT in helicopters) and none covered most of this material with me. I recommend that anyone planning to fly the R22 obtain this DVD, or better yet, do the course in CA. Ther is also a DVD aviavable on autorotations in the R22 which I found useful - dont have a link, but its easy to find on the web.
EN 48
It was not my intent to be unfair, just to call it as I see it. Others have and will come to different conclusions. What tipped the balance for me was the FAA special safety report published in the mid 90's. This report examined around fifty fatal accidents which had occurred to that time for which there was no clear cause. The accident scenarios have a remarkable similarity: low time student (0-4 hours) flying with instructor crash killing both. The report attributed the cause to a loss of main rotor control resulting from an abrupt, unanticipated cyclic input by the student. Within 2 revolutions, the main rotor flaps down and chops off the tail boom, and this happens faster than the instructor can respond. Some will respond, "Dont make abrupt cyclic inputs," and this is excellent advice, but the real world is a bit more complicated.
The R22 is in many ways a brilliant design. As far as I can tell, a very small per centage of accidents are due to mechanical failure. However, in the interest of performance and cost, it is also a somewhat primitive design, which by necessity asks more of the pilot. I'd rather have more margin for error while I am learning, and then accept a smaller margin when I am more proficient. This is a tradeoff which each who puts his ass on the line needs top decide for himself.
The RHC Safety Course on DVD is actually quite valuable IMO - not as good as going to the factory in person, but better than not having this exposure. (Obviously, the DVD covers only the ground schooll portion of the course.) I have flown with a few R22 instructors (all in the category of "students teaching students," i.e. just a few hundred TT in helicopters) and none covered most of this material with me. I recommend that anyone planning to fly the R22 obtain this DVD, or better yet, do the course in CA. Ther is also a DVD aviavable on autorotations in the R22 which I found useful - dont have a link, but its easy to find on the web.
EN 48
EN48, I understand what you're saying. One of the problems I saw in the US when I went to do some hour building there, my examiner had the same hours in the R22 as myself when he was checking me out for SFH. He was a fixed wing guy, 23yrs old, and had just converted to rotary. When he asked for an auto back to the field, I put it on the deck and he nearly sh*t his pants, as he wasn't used to doing them to the ground. I had taken virtually every auto to the ground when training in UK. There are a lot of low hour instructors out there and this is likely to reflect in accident statistics. I noticed as peoples hours increased, so did the self confidence levels and belief in their ability. 500hrs, 1000hrs etc. We learn every time we fly but some never do.
The best way to avoid accidents in an R22 (other than not flying it at all) is to stay in current flying practice on it. The R22 is not an easy helicopter to fly and can bite unforgivingly if mishandled.
Unfortunately, once PPLH qualified, few pilots keep the tempo of flying that they had during their training period. Skills perish, ego assumes that a PPL is a badge of excellence and rusty pilots take to the air in a machine they are not fully in control of; there is no experience to rely on and so anticipating problems is difficult.
Now we are left with a low time pilot reacting to the aircraft, often way too late and sometimes with inappropriate control inputs - is it any wonder there are a lot of R22 accidents?
Oh, and it's killed a whole lot of very experienced R22 pilots as well...
Unfortunately, once PPLH qualified, few pilots keep the tempo of flying that they had during their training period. Skills perish, ego assumes that a PPL is a badge of excellence and rusty pilots take to the air in a machine they are not fully in control of; there is no experience to rely on and so anticipating problems is difficult.
Now we are left with a low time pilot reacting to the aircraft, often way too late and sometimes with inappropriate control inputs - is it any wonder there are a lot of R22 accidents?
Oh, and it's killed a whole lot of very experienced R22 pilots as well...
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Hmutt said:
Exactly. When new to helicopters (or most other pursuits) you dont know what you dont know. It takes some time to gain insight and develop judgement, and this process goes on for a lifetime. It seems to me that there are many more ways to get into trouble in helicopters than in airplanes, and I am highly motivated to make it through the early learning period. In 40+ years of flying, no accidents, incidents, violations, or insurance claims, and I'd like to keep it that way! Some might say I have not taken enought chances, but I have had some anxious moments and learned from them. 
EN48
"I noticed as peoples hours increased, so did the self confidence levels and belief in their ability. 500hrs, 1000hrs etc. We learn every time we fly but some never do."
EN48
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whats the risk?
Hi there fellers I am a low time 44 pilot c.180 hours and a retired member of the constabulary here in scotland. I must say that the dialogue here is exactly IMHO what pprune is all about. Very interesting and informative.
At a time here in Scotland when accidents fatal and non are appearing on the increase I am writing a paper on the hypotheses that using the term "risk" more frequently in the actions of a small/med sized heelio will go some way to establishing just that bit more awareness and a bit less accident. I am particularly fond of my flying but the more I investigate the circumstances, actions situations and events surrounding helicopter incidents the less time I find myself in the air in the right seat. Would anyone like to make any comments or observations observations on my thoughts.
This paper acts as a part of my degree in Risk at Glasgow Caledonian University and I will be happy to acknowledge any constructive comments...
At a time here in Scotland when accidents fatal and non are appearing on the increase I am writing a paper on the hypotheses that using the term "risk" more frequently in the actions of a small/med sized heelio will go some way to establishing just that bit more awareness and a bit less accident. I am particularly fond of my flying but the more I investigate the circumstances, actions situations and events surrounding helicopter incidents the less time I find myself in the air in the right seat. Would anyone like to make any comments or observations observations on my thoughts.
This paper acts as a part of my degree in Risk at Glasgow Caledonian University and I will be happy to acknowledge any constructive comments...