Sea King too old and putting Lives at risk.
To be fair, I am not commenting on current ops and the stories were from the last decade
I thought "everyone" knew that!
Bertie - welcome to life above the parapet
Bertie.
"Common Knowledge" ??? By who? If that is true, how come it took so long for the M.C.A. to find out and award the contract to someone else?
Why would we go u/s on start? It is not us who get the big fat salaries/ bonus like our higher management!
Crab.
You still have not grasped the concept of our second machine have you, nor the way the contract is written.
You are correct with regard to the primary machine, but wrong about the standby. The FLIR is removed from the main machine and fitted to the standby as and when required. The wiring is all there, just swap the hardware, takes 10 minutes max. Nor does it have twin hoist capability. Pretty much like your Sea King there! The standby does not have to be to the same standard as the Primary because as you point out, we do not have a second crew on call, and the MCA will not pay for it to be! The MCA will not pay for extra crews to just sit around on standby in the unlikely event that they will be needed. That is not our fault but the way the contract was/is written and paid for. You have other training commitments that mean you need extra crews, something we do not need to do, ie. practice for going to war etc.
RCS... wrong again I'm afraid. I am not even sure of what that stands for but I am sure you will enlighten me.
As WT says, have you ever visited an MCA flight? You should try it one day. You never know, you might catch us waiting to go u/s on start with the MGB and engines out.
"Common Knowledge" ??? By who? If that is true, how come it took so long for the M.C.A. to find out and award the contract to someone else?
Why would we go u/s on start? It is not us who get the big fat salaries/ bonus like our higher management!
Crab.
You still have not grasped the concept of our second machine have you, nor the way the contract is written.
You are correct with regard to the primary machine, but wrong about the standby. The FLIR is removed from the main machine and fitted to the standby as and when required. The wiring is all there, just swap the hardware, takes 10 minutes max. Nor does it have twin hoist capability. Pretty much like your Sea King there! The standby does not have to be to the same standard as the Primary because as you point out, we do not have a second crew on call, and the MCA will not pay for it to be! The MCA will not pay for extra crews to just sit around on standby in the unlikely event that they will be needed. That is not our fault but the way the contract was/is written and paid for. You have other training commitments that mean you need extra crews, something we do not need to do, ie. practice for going to war etc.
RCS... wrong again I'm afraid. I am not even sure of what that stands for but I am sure you will enlighten me.
As WT says, have you ever visited an MCA flight? You should try it one day. You never know, you might catch us waiting to go u/s on start with the MGB and engines out.
Avoid imitations
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Surely a few spare RAF Pumas could be converted to the SAR role?
Oh, no I forgot, there are no spares and anyway they're at least five years older in any case. Oops.
Oh, no I forgot, there are no spares and anyway they're at least five years older in any case. Oops.
SARCO
That may be the case in Stornoway but Sumburgh are not yet on line with the S92, the new year I think for them. Lee On Solent are at least 4months away from seeing the AW139, in one guise or another. Portland even further!!
So actually, it does matter.
That may be the case in Stornoway but Sumburgh are not yet on line with the S92, the new year I think for them. Lee On Solent are at least 4months away from seeing the AW139, in one guise or another. Portland even further!!
So actually, it does matter.
3D - so, other than the fact that the FLIR is swapped between 1st and second aircraft, everything I wrote is correct - it does not have to be the same spec as the 1sts in terms of autohover etc and it doesn't have a crew.
Guess what - I know the contract isn't written for you to provide seconds - that is why I highlight the difference between what we have now and we may have in the future.
Strangely enough I have a full-time job involving 3 detached flights on my own Squadron without needing to spend even more time in the car to visit a MCA site.
The strength of your defensiveness regarding serviceability is bordering on the edge of Shakespeare's "Methinks the lady doth protest too much" - are you sure you don't have something to hide
PS the Irish Coastguard have an RCS feed linked to to ARCCK, why don't the UK MCA SAR flts - unless you have it and no-one has shown you what it is?
Guess what - I know the contract isn't written for you to provide seconds - that is why I highlight the difference between what we have now and we may have in the future.
Strangely enough I have a full-time job involving 3 detached flights on my own Squadron without needing to spend even more time in the car to visit a MCA site.
The strength of your defensiveness regarding serviceability is bordering on the edge of Shakespeare's "Methinks the lady doth protest too much" - are you sure you don't have something to hide
PS the Irish Coastguard have an RCS feed linked to to ARCCK, why don't the UK MCA SAR flts - unless you have it and no-one has shown you what it is?
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So Crab we'll take that as no then. Such a shame you might learn a few things about civvy SAR. While at Lossie we took a cab up for an overnight visit to Sumburgh (Serviceability was a lot better in '97). Drank a lot and learnt a lot. Since then a couple of exchanges have taken place. But all concerned became more aware of the capabilities of the other lot.
Go on make the time, in fact if you spent less time on these forums you could probably find a day to make a visit.
regards
Wiretensioner
Go on make the time, in fact if you spent less time on these forums you could probably find a day to make a visit.
regards
Wiretensioner
Crab.
Wiretensioners reply sums it up, but...
Yes, I am defensive about civvy SAR. Just as you would be if I slagged off RAF SAR without direct knowledge or experience of it. I and most of my colleagues, air and groundcrew have spent lots of time on military SAR so have seen both sides of the coin. We all try to achieve the same result at the end of the day, just using different coloured machines. You do yourself nor the RAF any favours by posting rumours and stories from the distant past.
Why would we not declare we are U/S? We get no rake off from BHL for staying serviceable and take great pride in the service we try to supply to the southwest so therefore when we do go U/S, we cry for help asap!
I understand that you are fighting your corner for the upcoming harmonisation and I wish you luck. We do not want to see a drop in standards either! (We may even get a standby machine at Portland?? Now that would be a novelty!)
Yes, at last you have grasped the meaning of our standby machines. But I emphasise this is not out of choice, we would love a fully equipped spare aircraft but the MCA would not accept the cost to supply them! This will change as and when CHC take over each base. (That will be the time to check on serviceability states.) But Portland will still have to share the spare machine with the premier unit on the South coast??
The Irish may have access to RCS??? but I can assure you, our only direct contact with the local MRSC is the scramble phone!!!
Wiretensioners reply sums it up, but...
Yes, I am defensive about civvy SAR. Just as you would be if I slagged off RAF SAR without direct knowledge or experience of it. I and most of my colleagues, air and groundcrew have spent lots of time on military SAR so have seen both sides of the coin. We all try to achieve the same result at the end of the day, just using different coloured machines. You do yourself nor the RAF any favours by posting rumours and stories from the distant past.
Why would we not declare we are U/S? We get no rake off from BHL for staying serviceable and take great pride in the service we try to supply to the southwest so therefore when we do go U/S, we cry for help asap!
I understand that you are fighting your corner for the upcoming harmonisation and I wish you luck. We do not want to see a drop in standards either! (We may even get a standby machine at Portland?? Now that would be a novelty!)
Yes, at last you have grasped the meaning of our standby machines. But I emphasise this is not out of choice, we would love a fully equipped spare aircraft but the MCA would not accept the cost to supply them! This will change as and when CHC take over each base. (That will be the time to check on serviceability states.) But Portland will still have to share the spare machine with the premier unit on the South coast??
The Irish may have access to RCS??? but I can assure you, our only direct contact with the local MRSC is the scramble phone!!!
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3D, I agree with your post, I also can see where CRAB is comming from, but don't quite agree with they way he goes about it.
Back on 22 Septmber 1988, there was a fire on the Ocean Odyssy where sadly the radio operator died. I was a member of the AS332 that was first on the scene, we were only 10 minutes away when the alarm was raised and were on site 30-40 minutes before the Dauphan from the Forties I think it was, arrived. We spoke to the radio operator who was asking which way he should go, and as the helideck was completely engulfed by fire we moved in closer to see if there was another escape route, however a number of blast occured and debris was blown into the air very close to us. We had to pull back and lost radio contact.
We continued to fly around the area and located a number of people in the water and directed boats to them, we then located the life boat which was now out of sight of the rig and guided a vessel to it. By now more aircraft had arrived along with a Nimrod who took control of the operation. In time the operation was wound down and we were released returned to I think the S701 to refuel and offered to take survivors back to Aberdeen as we were going back empty. We were told it was not necesary as the RAF SAR aircraft would call in later and take them back.
Later that night on the news and in the papers it was all about the RAF recue etc. After the initial reaction of "what the......"we thought about it and realised it was a very good PR exercise for the RAF SAR who were under pressure even then. So I keep this in mind each time CRAB goes on the offensive with what is often garbage and picture a man fighting for perhaps his and his services very existance. I also keep a tub of salt close by and take a pinch every now and then.
Back on 22 Septmber 1988, there was a fire on the Ocean Odyssy where sadly the radio operator died. I was a member of the AS332 that was first on the scene, we were only 10 minutes away when the alarm was raised and were on site 30-40 minutes before the Dauphan from the Forties I think it was, arrived. We spoke to the radio operator who was asking which way he should go, and as the helideck was completely engulfed by fire we moved in closer to see if there was another escape route, however a number of blast occured and debris was blown into the air very close to us. We had to pull back and lost radio contact.
We continued to fly around the area and located a number of people in the water and directed boats to them, we then located the life boat which was now out of sight of the rig and guided a vessel to it. By now more aircraft had arrived along with a Nimrod who took control of the operation. In time the operation was wound down and we were released returned to I think the S701 to refuel and offered to take survivors back to Aberdeen as we were going back empty. We were told it was not necesary as the RAF SAR aircraft would call in later and take them back.
Later that night on the news and in the papers it was all about the RAF recue etc. After the initial reaction of "what the......"we thought about it and realised it was a very good PR exercise for the RAF SAR who were under pressure even then. So I keep this in mind each time CRAB goes on the offensive with what is often garbage and picture a man fighting for perhaps his and his services very existance. I also keep a tub of salt close by and take a pinch every now and then.
Check
Thanks for that, I was beginning to think it was just me.
Unfortunately, I am easily wound up, as those who know me will testify.
A trip to the salt mines perhaps?
Thanks for that, I was beginning to think it was just me.
Unfortunately, I am easily wound up, as those who know me will testify.
A trip to the salt mines perhaps?
Wiretensioner - I suppose I could make the effort if I was invited Liaison is always beneficial but it works both ways - do you have MCA guys coming to visit RAF SAR flts to see how we do business before they claim they have the same capability as us?
I know we are all in the same business and we all launch when the phone rings, regardless of the weather and I have never denigrated individual crews professionalism or bravery - it is the organisational issues I have problems with.
3D - It is hardly a case of 'at last' regarding my understanding of your second aircraft - I have known the situation from the start but you have been to busy jumping to conclusions about my posts to notice. Your local MRSC is only your tasking authority when the incident is within 30nm - outside of that it is ARCCK. As such, your flight should have access to the RCS and a direct line to Kinloss - if it doesn't then someone has been telling porkies about command and control of SAR helicopters.
Your comments regarding serviceability are slightly naive, if the contract says you must give 98% availability or there will be contract penalties, there is immediately an incentive to be economical with the truth if you are facing a lot of down time on the aircraft.
As I said before, this 'allegedly' occurred sometimes in the 90's but I am sure would not be tolerated now the big contract is up for grabs. Anyway I thought that CHC were already running the contract in the channel, only using S61 until the 139s appear. Was this not the agreement under the interim contract?
Check - we see jobs done by RAF aircraft get reported in the press as RN and vice versa - it is certainly not a big RAF PR machine and we certainly don't try to take credit for jobs we don't do. It sounds like you did a good job in '88 but if you are still bitter about lack of recognition, I think you probably need to give yourself a good talking to.
3D - I'll await the invite but meanwhile if you would like to come to Chivenor to see what we do and how, I would be happy to arrange it.
Liaison is always beneficial but it works both ways - do you have MCA guys coming to visit RAF SAR flts to see how we do business before they claim they have the same capability as us? I know we are all in the same business and we all launch when the phone rings, regardless of the weather and I have never denigrated individual crews professionalism or bravery - it is the organisational issues I have problems with.
3D - It is hardly a case of 'at last' regarding my understanding of your second aircraft - I have known the situation from the start but you have been to busy jumping to conclusions about my posts to notice. Your local MRSC is only your tasking authority when the incident is within 30nm - outside of that it is ARCCK. As such, your flight should have access to the RCS and a direct line to Kinloss - if it doesn't then someone has been telling porkies about command and control of SAR helicopters.
Your comments regarding serviceability are slightly naive, if the contract says you must give 98% availability or there will be contract penalties, there is immediately an incentive to be economical with the truth if you are facing a lot of down time on the aircraft.
As I said before, this 'allegedly' occurred sometimes in the 90's but I am sure would not be tolerated now the big contract is up for grabs. Anyway I thought that CHC were already running the contract in the channel, only using S61 until the 139s appear. Was this not the agreement under the interim contract?
Check - we see jobs done by RAF aircraft get reported in the press as RN and vice versa - it is certainly not a big RAF PR machine and we certainly don't try to take credit for jobs we don't do. It sounds like you did a good job in '88 but if you are still bitter about lack of recognition, I think you probably need to give yourself a good talking to.
3D - I'll await the invite but meanwhile if you would like to come to Chivenor to see what we do and how, I would be happy to arrange it.
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"Your local MRSC is only your tasking authority when the incident is within 30nm - outside of that it is ARCCK. As such, your flight should have access to the RCS and a direct line to Kinloss - if it doesn't then someone has been telling porkies about command and control of SAR helicopters."
Sorry Crab but that's wrong. For an incident requiring an MCA helo over 30nm ARCC are contacted and if confirmed that the helo is 'closest' then the tasking and scrambling reverts back to the MRCC (no MRSC's nowadays!), hence no direct line between ARCC and SAR Flight because it is all done via us here at the parent MRCC. The SAR Flight keeps us updated with their status hence no need for RCS, but I believe it is on the way.
So take it from somone who does know something about command and control of SAR Helicopters.
Sorry Crab but that's wrong. For an incident requiring an MCA helo over 30nm ARCC are contacted and if confirmed that the helo is 'closest' then the tasking and scrambling reverts back to the MRCC (no MRSC's nowadays!), hence no direct line between ARCC and SAR Flight because it is all done via us here at the parent MRCC. The SAR Flight keeps us updated with their status hence no need for RCS, but I believe it is on the way.
So take it from somone who does know something about command and control of SAR Helicopters.
Crab.
I am not in the position to invite you anywhere. Contact the MCA. Thanks for the invite to visit Chivenor, but the next few months are going to be a bit frantic with the changeover to CHC etc. We did drop in a couple of years ago on the way back from Swansea, maybe you were off shift.
RCS. Yes I know about the 30 mile thing but that will just start another bun fight. We do not have RCS at the flight, nor do we have a direct line to Kinloss!!! If, and it is if, ARCCK task us, it still comes through from the MRSC. Yes, someone is telling porkies, but, rest assured, it aint me!!!!
There may indeed be contract penalties, I'm afraid I am not party to that info. but even so, we always tell the MCA if we are unserviceable. Those penalties apply to the contractor, not us personally so why should we disguise anything? I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree about this issue.
I'm afraid you are wrong about CHC running things in the Channel. Lee and Portland are still Bristow run. Lee change over at the beginning of January, Portland in April. The 61 will be around down here until the arrival of the AW139????
SARCO got there before me.
In fact, Portland is still an MRSC. As far as I know anyway.
I am not in the position to invite you anywhere. Contact the MCA. Thanks for the invite to visit Chivenor, but the next few months are going to be a bit frantic with the changeover to CHC etc. We did drop in a couple of years ago on the way back from Swansea, maybe you were off shift.
RCS. Yes I know about the 30 mile thing but that will just start another bun fight. We do not have RCS at the flight, nor do we have a direct line to Kinloss!!! If, and it is if, ARCCK task us, it still comes through from the MRSC. Yes, someone is telling porkies, but, rest assured, it aint me!!!!
There may indeed be contract penalties, I'm afraid I am not party to that info. but even so, we always tell the MCA if we are unserviceable. Those penalties apply to the contractor, not us personally so why should we disguise anything? I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree about this issue.
I'm afraid you are wrong about CHC running things in the Channel. Lee and Portland are still Bristow run. Lee change over at the beginning of January, Portland in April. The 61 will be around down here until the arrival of the AW139????
SARCO got there before me.
In fact, Portland is still an MRSC. As far as I know anyway.
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CRab said; "...we certainly don't try to take credit for jobs we don't do."
Now that is a porky. I went up to the ARCC at Kinloss last year and learnt something that shocked me.
Every time MRCC (not MRSC) Portland launches WB/IJ to a local dive job (without having to ask anyone for pemission), we tell the ARCC when we get round to it later in the day and they stick another pin in their map and tick off another job they have co-ordinated. Totally fraudulent.
I am looking forward to when the ARCC becomes part of the MCA and moves to Southampton in 2012.
Secondly, every morning MRCC Portland calls the ARCC to ask what aircraft are available at Chivenor and Culdrose. So there are people who see both sides of the picture and have a snapshot of the difference between Bristow, navy and crab availability/maintenance
Now that is a porky. I went up to the ARCC at Kinloss last year and learnt something that shocked me.
Every time MRCC (not MRSC) Portland launches WB/IJ to a local dive job (without having to ask anyone for pemission), we tell the ARCC when we get round to it later in the day and they stick another pin in their map and tick off another job they have co-ordinated. Totally fraudulent.
I am looking forward to when the ARCC becomes part of the MCA and moves to Southampton in 2012.
Secondly, every morning MRCC Portland calls the ARCC to ask what aircraft are available at Chivenor and Culdrose. So there are people who see both sides of the picture and have a snapshot of the difference between Bristow, navy and crab availability/maintenance
Yes, I put my hand up to MRCC v MRSC, I copied 3D without checking. As for command and control, the very fact that over 30nm means checking with the ARCCK is a clear indicator of who has overall control of all SAR helicopters in the UK - Kinloss. That logically leads to them being quite entitled to log every SAR job as one that they have co-ordinated whether they were directly involved or not.
The fact that you don't have a direct line to Kinloss or access to the RCS speaks volumes for how the MCA has tried to keep control of its own part of the empire - you are a UK asset not just a MCA asset.
Disappointed about the invite but I wasn't holding my breath and expecting to be welcomed with open arms
The fact that you don't have a direct line to Kinloss or access to the RCS speaks volumes for how the MCA has tried to keep control of its own part of the empire - you are a UK asset not just a MCA asset.
Disappointed about the invite but I wasn't holding my breath and expecting to be welcomed with open arms
Send'em.
Sincere and humble apologies, MRCC not MRSC
.
Crab.
I never said you would not be welcome. It is just not my place to dish out invites. The MCA are our bosses and say who visits or otherwise. But I would suggest you wait until we get the 139,
, at least that will be something new to look at. I don't know if you would get a trip in one though, rumour has it that there are only 4 seats in the back, including crew seats!!!!
ARCCK.... well, as I said in a previous post, that has the potential for another slagging match and I will leave that to "Send'em" and yourself to sort out.
Sincere and humble apologies, MRCC not MRSC
. Crab.
I never said you would not be welcome. It is just not my place to dish out invites. The MCA are our bosses and say who visits or otherwise. But I would suggest you wait until we get the 139,
, at least that will be something new to look at. I don't know if you would get a trip in one though, rumour has it that there are only 4 seats in the back, including crew seats!!!!ARCCK.... well, as I said in a previous post, that has the potential for another slagging match and I will leave that to "Send'em" and yourself to sort out.
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detgnome
It certainly did, but I did not come off the end of the wire!
Also we did some winching with a couple of the Bristow winchops doing the patter. Our pilot (Lossie's flight commander) saw no big difference between the RAF way and the Bristow way.
Crab instead of waiting why not ring up Portland or Lee and ask if you can visit. Take a Sea King, stay overnight. Despite everything I'm sure you will be well received and hosted.
Wiretensioner
It certainly did, but I did not come off the end of the wire!
Also we did some winching with a couple of the Bristow winchops doing the patter. Our pilot (Lossie's flight commander) saw no big difference between the RAF way and the Bristow way.
Crab instead of waiting why not ring up Portland or Lee and ask if you can visit. Take a Sea King, stay overnight. Despite everything I'm sure you will be well received and hosted.
Wiretensioner