Sea King too old and putting Lives at risk.
If the argument was that the Seakings didn't have the range, loiter time or some other operational reason for not being up to the job I could understand it.
Not up to the job based on age alone does not wash.
Not up to the job based on age alone does not wash.
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bolkow.
The fleet was added to with the Sea King Mk3a - the main differences to the crew being the avionics [much better apart from a little thing called the force sensing links, however, I believe these were re-worked eventually and they are better now - Crabb??]
Eric Ferret
The SAR-H competition does raise the bar somewhat from what the current Sea King and S61 fleet can offer - strictly speaking from the Sea King/S92 and AW139 comparison as it is this that is used as the bench mark not what we had at the beginning of 2007]. So, its not because they are old - although that has to be a factor as the older they get the more expensive it is to maintain - it is a capability based competition and thus looks to improve on what we have now.
It is open to debate on how to improve on what we have now. As I have said before, there are a lot of people in many of the the consortia who recognise the value that the civil side bring to the party AND the value the military bring to the party. It is finding that balance that they are all trying to do right now to offer solutions to the IPT making the selection.
Q Crabb.
The fleet was added to with the Sea King Mk3a - the main differences to the crew being the avionics [much better apart from a little thing called the force sensing links, however, I believe these were re-worked eventually and they are better now - Crabb??]
Eric Ferret
The SAR-H competition does raise the bar somewhat from what the current Sea King and S61 fleet can offer - strictly speaking from the Sea King/S92 and AW139 comparison as it is this that is used as the bench mark not what we had at the beginning of 2007]. So, its not because they are old - although that has to be a factor as the older they get the more expensive it is to maintain - it is a capability based competition and thus looks to improve on what we have now.
It is open to debate on how to improve on what we have now. As I have said before, there are a lot of people in many of the the consortia who recognise the value that the civil side bring to the party AND the value the military bring to the party. It is finding that balance that they are all trying to do right now to offer solutions to the IPT making the selection.
Q Crabb.
Da dadada da daaaaa............it's me - Hurrah
Apologies to Blackadder.
The phrase 'no lesser capability' is the one that is supposed to ensure that whatever platform is chosen will be at least as good as what it replaces.
Sadly, this now seems open to interpretation and debate so we will end up with a newer helicopter than the SeaKing (not difficult) which will probably have better range, speed and payload; probably better OEI performance as well.
But will it actually have the same or better SAR capability than the 3A (currently the most advanced Sea King in this role)? That will depend on whether or not those making the final decisions actually understand what the current capability is and not what they have heard or what they remember from 10 years ago or what industry tells them we can do.
Apologies to Blackadder.The phrase 'no lesser capability' is the one that is supposed to ensure that whatever platform is chosen will be at least as good as what it replaces.
Sadly, this now seems open to interpretation and debate so we will end up with a newer helicopter than the SeaKing (not difficult) which will probably have better range, speed and payload; probably better OEI performance as well.
But will it actually have the same or better SAR capability than the 3A (currently the most advanced Sea King in this role)? That will depend on whether or not those making the final decisions actually understand what the current capability is and not what they have heard or what they remember from 10 years ago or what industry tells them we can do.
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Gp Capt Steve Garden, in charge of the RAF's Search and Rescue operations in the UK, said "This year alone we have been busier at Leconfield than we ever have been in the past.
"Such demanding rescues require the aircraft to be maintained once they've been flown, that means they've been taken offline for maintenance more often.
"Don't be worried, the Royal Air Force will provide search and rescue helicopters. The availability we get from our helicopters is second to none.
"Such demanding rescues require the aircraft to be maintained once they've been flown, that means they've been taken offline for maintenance more often.
"Don't be worried, the Royal Air Force will provide search and rescue helicopters. The availability we get from our helicopters is second to none.
Availability is second to none - oh please Steve what planet are you on? You'll get your Air Commodore without that kind of unfounded BS.
Demanding rescues require more maintenance? How does the helicopter know what kind of rescue it is doing? perhaps the cabs have started talking to you...
Nice to see PC again and not looking a day older...
No, but we fly more hours and also tell the truth about our serviceability
The availability of seconds is none - that's more like the case!!
The availability of seconds is none - that's more like the case!!
Crab.
That is slanderous!!
We always tell the M.C.A. if/when we are off line and to suggest otherwise is not doing you or the RAF any favours at all!! Nor the casualty waiting for help!
The more flying bit I will not argue with but, as we have done it to death on other threads, that is a contractual thing, not choice. We would love to have the hours that you guys have available!
By seconds I presume you mean the Stand by aircraft, not the main duty machine? Again, going over old ground, but for the benefit of newcomers and with apologies to those who have read this before, this is also a contractual thing. If the M.C.A. want more crews then they ask for them as part of the contract.
By the way, as part of the non event in East Anglia last week, Portland became a 24hr. unit!! Only for a couple of days but carried out with existing crews and could not have been maintained indefinitely but where there's a will. etc etc.
That is slanderous!!
We always tell the M.C.A. if/when we are off line and to suggest otherwise is not doing you or the RAF any favours at all!! Nor the casualty waiting for help!
The more flying bit I will not argue with but, as we have done it to death on other threads, that is a contractual thing, not choice. We would love to have the hours that you guys have available!
By seconds I presume you mean the Stand by aircraft, not the main duty machine? Again, going over old ground, but for the benefit of newcomers and with apologies to those who have read this before, this is also a contractual thing. If the M.C.A. want more crews then they ask for them as part of the contract.
By the way, as part of the non event in East Anglia last week, Portland became a 24hr. unit!! Only for a couple of days but carried out with existing crews and could not have been maintained indefinitely but where there's a will. etc etc.
Very touchy 3Dcam...
Not sure why Portland are allowed to be anything but a 24 hour operation but I guess that's down to the MCA as well. Any news on the 139s?
Not sure why Portland are allowed to be anything but a 24 hour operation but I guess that's down to the MCA as well. Any news on the 139s?
Sorry, bad morning at the hairdressers!
Portland and 24hr. Same old story I'm afraid, that is what the R.N. did, (12hr.only) so that is what we inherited. Believe me, we would love to go 24hr.!!!! A long search at 2055hrs. makes for one hell of a long shift.
The 139. Ah... the figment of someones fertile imagination! We have heard absolutely nothing other than what you see on this site. When you consider Lee transfer to CHC in just over six weeks time, well...? Don't kiss the S61 goodbye just yet!
Portland and 24hr. Same old story I'm afraid, that is what the R.N. did, (12hr.only) so that is what we inherited. Believe me, we would love to go 24hr.!!!! A long search at 2055hrs. makes for one hell of a long shift.
The 139. Ah... the figment of someones fertile imagination! We have heard absolutely nothing other than what you see on this site. When you consider Lee transfer to CHC in just over six weeks time, well...? Don't kiss the S61 goodbye just yet!
I find it amazing that a serving member of an RAF SAR unit would suggest lies by anyone. On what grounds do you base such an allegation? Put your money where your mouth is and come up with some facts.
The UK's SAR 61's, or what's left of them
, have occasionally been unserviceable but not anymore than RAF assets yet nobody here, serving member or former serving member of such units, feels the need to engage in a trade of insults.
I'm sure if an interested party had access to MCA records we could publish the times and dates of each unit to compare. Faxes from D watch at Lossiemouth stating "There are no SAR helicopters currently available" are hardly rare....
I personally sympathise with the crews of the units concerned, ready and waiting to then be without a cab. The reasons for such unservicabililty have already been discussed.
SAR is not a competition, SARH is not to be feared. Service will not be degraded if only that none of us will accept such a step backwards.
Let us not forget the immense cooperation shown last April on the night of the Bourbon Dolphin disaster when 4 different SAR helicopter units took part in the subsequent rescue efforts.
'That others may live....'
North
The UK's SAR 61's, or what's left of them
, have occasionally been unserviceable but not anymore than RAF assets yet nobody here, serving member or former serving member of such units, feels the need to engage in a trade of insults.I'm sure if an interested party had access to MCA records we could publish the times and dates of each unit to compare. Faxes from D watch at Lossiemouth stating "There are no SAR helicopters currently available" are hardly rare....
I personally sympathise with the crews of the units concerned, ready and waiting to then be without a cab. The reasons for such unservicabililty have already been discussed.
SAR is not a competition, SARH is not to be feared. Service will not be degraded if only that none of us will accept such a step backwards.
Let us not forget the immense cooperation shown last April on the night of the Bourbon Dolphin disaster when 4 different SAR helicopter units took part in the subsequent rescue efforts.
'That others may live....'
North
Well I guess those stories of S61's being declared on state with an engine out must just have been stories then.........it's amazing what people will make up just for the hell of it.
Our serviceability, or lack of it, is completely transparent and the figures are available for all to see. We have no KPIs to meet and no contract penalties if we are U/S a lot.
Our serviceability, or lack of it, is completely transparent and the figures are available for all to see. We have no KPIs to meet and no contract penalties if we are U/S a lot.
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Crab, I guess those stories are just that, because with the current system of COBI etc everyone follows the staight and level. No lies, untruths or missinformation. That runs from the top to the bottom.
On a slightly different note, the S61 is a very good workhorse and from my own experience the more it flew the less it spent on the ground, Literally and metaphorically. Having never flown the Sea King I cannot comment, but my experience in the military leads me to believe that military and civil servicability rates are not comparable.
On a slightly different note, the S61 is a very good workhorse and from my own experience the more it flew the less it spent on the ground, Literally and metaphorically. Having never flown the Sea King I cannot comment, but my experience in the military leads me to believe that military and civil servicability rates are not comparable.
Crab.
Absolute and utter B#""#!*s.
The local M.C.A., and M.C.A. hq. know when our aircraft are off line and for what reason.They can, and very often do, drop in for an unannounced visit. We don't have a sentry on the gate to turn them away because of a "security exercise." Just because the main aircraft, India Juliet or Whiskey Bravo, for the two Bristow units that are left, is having an engine change, doesn't mean that the unit is offline.( Obviously I cannot say what is happening up North because now that is a different company all together.)That is what the second aircraft is for! Hence no second crew.
As "Check" points out, COBI is a big thing now and we are under the threat of death if we breach that code!!!! And yes, the more you fly the "sticky bun", the more it will take!
Take your rumours with a big big pinch of salt. That is all they are, rumours.(Or is someone winding you up??)
And another thing. As I have said before, we are never told when you are off line. Whether that is down to A.R.C.C. or the M.C.A. I honestly do not know.
You accused me of being touchy, well to tell someone, not literally admitted, that they are being dishonest is a pretty good way to wind them up, and you succeeded!
Absolute and utter B#""#!*s.
The local M.C.A., and M.C.A. hq. know when our aircraft are off line and for what reason.They can, and very often do, drop in for an unannounced visit. We don't have a sentry on the gate to turn them away because of a "security exercise." Just because the main aircraft, India Juliet or Whiskey Bravo, for the two Bristow units that are left, is having an engine change, doesn't mean that the unit is offline.( Obviously I cannot say what is happening up North because now that is a different company all together.)That is what the second aircraft is for! Hence no second crew.
As "Check" points out, COBI is a big thing now and we are under the threat of death if we breach that code!!!! And yes, the more you fly the "sticky bun", the more it will take!
Take your rumours with a big big pinch of salt. That is all they are, rumours.(Or is someone winding you up??)
And another thing. As I have said before, we are never told when you are off line. Whether that is down to A.R.C.C. or the M.C.A. I honestly do not know.
You accused me of being touchy, well to tell someone, not literally admitted, that they are being dishonest is a pretty good way to wind them up, and you succeeded!
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We have no KPIs to meet and no contract penalties if we are U/S a lot.
r1a
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Role 1 A. How many times ....... its AgustaWestland now. The very nice man from AW told me so. However, just to correct a teeny weeny point, I am led to believe the number of flying hours is in the contract as well so..... thats your theory scuppered.
Q Crabb [do you want me to do the music for you on this thread?]
Q Crabb [do you want me to do the music for you on this thread?]
To be fair, I am not commenting on current ops and the stories were from the last decade - but, I have those stories from very reliable (and multiple) sources so I suggest people stop being quite so precious.
The MCA second standby has been easy to understand - the 1st aircraft is full SAR spec and the second is usually non-FCS, non auto hover, non-FLIR and without a seconds crew to man it.
The RAF 1st and second standby are both full SAR spec (when they are serviceable obviously) and have a seconds crew at RS60.
3Dcam - if you have access to the RCS, which I believe you have, then you know exactly what our serviceability state is.
The MCA second standby has been easy to understand - the 1st aircraft is full SAR spec and the second is usually non-FCS, non auto hover, non-FLIR and without a seconds crew to man it.
The RAF 1st and second standby are both full SAR spec (when they are serviceable obviously) and have a seconds crew at RS60.
3Dcam - if you have access to the RCS, which I believe you have, then you know exactly what our serviceability state is.