Guimbal Cabri G2
Henri
I am fully aware the manufacturer puts a warranty on the parts and not the labour. WHY DONT you answer the question would you or anyone else buy a new car without a warranty, I doubt it very very much but you as a manufacturer ( ?) not only want me to put my money where my mouth is on a virtually new helicopter type but then take the pea by not putting your money where your mouth is and backing your product.
I am afraid as 500e says manufacturers have a lot to learn from the automotive industry. Lets look at in another way I would have puchased 2 machines and i have 2 other customers that would have purchased. That is 4 machines or approx 10% of the entire cabri production so far gone due to no warranty
I am fully aware the manufacturer puts a warranty on the parts and not the labour. WHY DONT you answer the question would you or anyone else buy a new car without a warranty, I doubt it very very much but you as a manufacturer ( ?) not only want me to put my money where my mouth is on a virtually new helicopter type but then take the pea by not putting your money where your mouth is and backing your product.
I am afraid as 500e says manufacturers have a lot to learn from the automotive industry. Lets look at in another way I would have puchased 2 machines and i have 2 other customers that would have purchased. That is 4 machines or approx 10% of the entire cabri production so far gone due to no warranty
Hughes I think you are putting the cart before the horse. I think you can see the helicopter that is run out of Kemble has enough time on it to show that within a reasonable timescale the helicopter doesn't fall apart.
You are getting stuck on a point that over a 12 month period is irrelevant - ok you can argue if it is then the manufacturer should grant a warranty but if they don't have the resources to do it then they don't. Seems a business opportunity for someone to underwrite IMO.. but I digress.
If customers are private punters then you would have to be almost stupid to take an R22 over a G2 they are chalk and cheese.
You are getting stuck on a point that over a 12 month period is irrelevant - ok you can argue if it is then the manufacturer should grant a warranty but if they don't have the resources to do it then they don't. Seems a business opportunity for someone to underwrite IMO.. but I digress.
If customers are private punters then you would have to be almost stupid to take an R22 over a G2 they are chalk and cheese.
Pitts
To use the exact words of those at Kemble " we have had a lot of niggling problems with senders and electrical items "
So please answer the question would you buy with your money, for instance, a brand new £ 100k Range Rover with no warranty ? I have one customer and a friend of another who purchased brand new range rovers and within 2 months have been given new cars due to "issues"
So why would i wish to leave my self exposed, if the product is so good give the warranty, what makes you think I have the resource as opposed to the manufacturer? You need to live in the real world mate or you are so wealthy you can afford to put right someone else's problems.
Quite frankly I am voting with my feet and wallet, you have seen 500E's comment another potential customer.
By the way how many Cabri G2's have been sold in the UK - NONE other than the 2 to the distributor. Tells you something about the economic climate and what people think at the moment !
To use the exact words of those at Kemble " we have had a lot of niggling problems with senders and electrical items "
So please answer the question would you buy with your money, for instance, a brand new £ 100k Range Rover with no warranty ? I have one customer and a friend of another who purchased brand new range rovers and within 2 months have been given new cars due to "issues"
So why would i wish to leave my self exposed, if the product is so good give the warranty, what makes you think I have the resource as opposed to the manufacturer? You need to live in the real world mate or you are so wealthy you can afford to put right someone else's problems.
Quite frankly I am voting with my feet and wallet, you have seen 500E's comment another potential customer.
By the way how many Cabri G2's have been sold in the UK - NONE other than the 2 to the distributor. Tells you something about the economic climate and what people think at the moment !
Not sure what the issues in detail but as I understand it G-UIMB still has around 400hours in use as it is almost daily instructing new pilots. I think a private owner might take a few years to click up over 400 hours...
That said it isn't "no warranty" it is a parts warranty and its not a case of being so rich, etc. Look in the end you know whats cheaper than a Cabri G2? A car. Still too rich? Get a motorbike... cycle.. walk...
In the end flying isn't cheap and if I was a person flying privately with the resources to smoke around in a new Range Rover (which is what £100k with a spec?) then truthfully if it costs me £290 per hour or £350 per hour for my 50hours a year thats a delta of £3000. So I'd vote with staying alive, like the old motorbike saying goes, if you have a £20 head get a £20 crash helmet.
Don't get me wrong i see the point you make but think it is over played and I don't see "niggling problems with senders and electrical items" as a show stopper.
That said it isn't "no warranty" it is a parts warranty and its not a case of being so rich, etc. Look in the end you know whats cheaper than a Cabri G2? A car. Still too rich? Get a motorbike... cycle.. walk...
In the end flying isn't cheap and if I was a person flying privately with the resources to smoke around in a new Range Rover (which is what £100k with a spec?) then truthfully if it costs me £290 per hour or £350 per hour for my 50hours a year thats a delta of £3000. So I'd vote with staying alive, like the old motorbike saying goes, if you have a £20 head get a £20 crash helmet.
Don't get me wrong i see the point you make but think it is over played and I don't see "niggling problems with senders and electrical items" as a show stopper.
Not a show stopper but, I have just had a zero timed lycomoing engine put in one of my 300's, blown its crankseal twice due to the glue they are stuck in with. Takes 4 to 5 hours to get to the seal to replace it. Now if that was on my brand new cabri G2 that would have cost 5 x £ 65 plus travelling, twice. Why should I pay for that when i am having to pay for the down time
Or put it this way would you pay as a student for that ? Someone has to pay for it why should it be the operator ?
Or put it this way would you pay as a student for that ? Someone has to pay for it why should it be the operator ?
Hello Hughes500,
First I'm not from the manufacturer so if you want to start a commercial negotiation (a good idea), contact directly your dealer or Guimbal.
As I've already answer to you : I DO UNDERSTAND that you would rather want a full warranty instead of a part warranty only.
I would not buy a car without any warranty but commercial or private operators DO buy the G2 with part warranty only, that's why I suggested you to contact some of them to know how they deal with that point.
If a full warranty is a vital point for you (as I can understand) I tell you again to choose the 300 that you know well and that has a 2 years full warranty (with the help of their powerful owner : Sikorsky).
In my opinion, if you can get more customers (students or pilots) with a G2 choose the G2, it's worth the lake of labour warranty. I say that because I can see around me that it's a fact, customers (students or pilots) knowing a lot of things now, being concerne about safety and comparing as you do.
Anyway, as you said that "you would love to buy the G2" and that "Bruno and his product are really impressive" (and I do agree with you), I do sincerely hope that Guimbal will be big enough soon to propose the full warranty you need so you can propose to your customers a safe and modern aircraft. You will be all happy ( Guimbal, you and your many customers) and that's the best way to do business!
And by the way, I don't think that your friend's Range Rover explanation is really accurate. I could say that your friend is to buy a car with only the poor minimum legal warranty of 2 years when you can buy a Kia car with a 7 years warranty with no extra charges! What's going to happen if your friend's car get problems after 25 months ?!! I could say as you do : who's going to buy a car with only 2 years warranty ?! The answer is : most of the people do because they don't buy ONLY a warannty, they buy the car what match their needs whatever they are.
.
First I'm not from the manufacturer so if you want to start a commercial negotiation (a good idea), contact directly your dealer or Guimbal.
As I've already answer to you : I DO UNDERSTAND that you would rather want a full warranty instead of a part warranty only.
I would not buy a car without any warranty but commercial or private operators DO buy the G2 with part warranty only, that's why I suggested you to contact some of them to know how they deal with that point.
If a full warranty is a vital point for you (as I can understand) I tell you again to choose the 300 that you know well and that has a 2 years full warranty (with the help of their powerful owner : Sikorsky).
In my opinion, if you can get more customers (students or pilots) with a G2 choose the G2, it's worth the lake of labour warranty. I say that because I can see around me that it's a fact, customers (students or pilots) knowing a lot of things now, being concerne about safety and comparing as you do.
Anyway, as you said that "you would love to buy the G2" and that "Bruno and his product are really impressive" (and I do agree with you), I do sincerely hope that Guimbal will be big enough soon to propose the full warranty you need so you can propose to your customers a safe and modern aircraft. You will be all happy ( Guimbal, you and your many customers) and that's the best way to do business!
And by the way, I don't think that your friend's Range Rover explanation is really accurate. I could say that your friend is
to buy a car with only the poor minimum legal warranty of 2 years when you can buy a Kia car with a 7 years warranty with no extra charges! What's going to happen if your friend's car get problems after 25 months ?!! I could say as you do : who's going to buy a car with only 2 years warranty ?! The answer is : most of the people do because they don't buy ONLY a warannty, they buy the car what match their needs whatever they are..
Last edited by HeliHenri; 19th Nov 2012 at 14:39.
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What's going to happen if your friend's car get problems after 25 months ?!!
I'd suggest that 98%of Range Rovers are bought for ego/style...NOT for their "off- road workhorse" capabilities.
I think this Heli has enough time on it to give credibility to it's construction and it's manufacturer's financial stability.
Parts ARE a major cost....by excluding the labour-element, the Factory can ACCURATELY factor-in their warranty costs. Known fact, distributors WILL extract the urine on warranty labour, if they get the chance.
True example from the Motoring world .-
Changing a clutch in a BMC transverse-engine 1800 was an engine/trans. out job.....book time ~12 hours.......remove battery and tray, disconnect exhaust and a few bits and bobs ,unfasten engine mountings and tilt the clutch end up...you could then whizz it out ,replace with new "warranty " item , drop engine back down and drive out after 3 hours labour all in!
It was only the huge number of "faulty" clutch returns, where no fault was found, that bought this "scam" to light.
SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR WARRANTIES.....Add it on to the purchase-price?....there are already many here wanting a Bentley for Ford money,
so, IMHO, Guimbal has hedged their bets by excluding the factor over which they have no control and priced the product accordingly.
An aquaintance flew a Schweitzer for a couple of years and then "upgraded" to a R44....it didn't last long, he survived when it bit him.
If you're that concerned about a warranty, a LLoyds Underwriter will happily take your money, give you "peace of mind" and you'll fly a more modern, safer, economical Heli.
I neither own or fly a Rotary Wing (unless you count R.C. models
)So, I've no dog in this fight. It's just common-sense really and what counts is the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP.
I'd venture to suggest the depreciation figures quoted early-on in the thread, are wildly pessimistic.....An end of life Robbo needs a huge rebuild.....Cabri of same age, given the same care and attention...probably 10% of the expense....this must surely reflect in the resale value of the guimbal. (and no worries about main blades peeling open! )
Cockney
I have no problem with what happens after 2 years, might as well go buy a second hand one that is 2 years old then.
having been in the industry for 25 years owned over 20 different machines and personally had to write the checks for them I know what i am talking about, the manufacturers are taking the piss. It is really easy for the majority of people on this site to say this that and the other, I would wager 99% have never put their hand in their pocket to run a machine let alone make it a business where one can earn a reasonable living.
Interestingly insurance companies dont like the Cabri, it is cheaper to insure one of my 500's for 5 pax then it is a cabri for 2 pax, tell you something ?
I have no problem with what happens after 2 years, might as well go buy a second hand one that is 2 years old then.
having been in the industry for 25 years owned over 20 different machines and personally had to write the checks for them I know what i am talking about, the manufacturers are taking the piss. It is really easy for the majority of people on this site to say this that and the other, I would wager 99% have never put their hand in their pocket to run a machine let alone make it a business where one can earn a reasonable living.
Interestingly insurance companies dont like the Cabri, it is cheaper to insure one of my 500's for 5 pax then it is a cabri for 2 pax, tell you something ?
Come on Hughes 500 having a view doesn't mean you are a snotty nosed 12 year old with a paper round nor does owning a helicopter/aircraft mean you care to make a business out of aviation!
Insurance companies hate it because there is no data so for them its hard to price the risk. Not only that but you'll have no time on type which is another thing insurance will focus on..
How much have Cotswold had to spend on things that would fall under warranty for G-UIMB since they taken it?
Insurance companies hate it because there is no data so for them its hard to price the risk. Not only that but you'll have no time on type which is another thing insurance will focus on..
How much have Cotswold had to spend on things that would fall under warranty for G-UIMB since they taken it?
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Hughes...I couldn't agree more! unfortunately for you, Guimbals on the used market are going to be like rocking horse 5h1t, 'cos all owners appear to be delighted with them. I also think they will fetch top-dollar.....unlike your Range-dog example , the price of which will suffer galactic depreciation in that first 2 years.....they've always been slung together with a load of poor-quality bits leading to constant failures both major and minor......Trabant should be about 10 grand nowadays...they've had ~25 years to recover the tooling costs of the current version of that motorised stagecoach.......you talk about taking the whizz!!!!.....don't forget Guimbal's a Frog....they do things a bit differently out there
they're mere amateurs in the art of screwing punters.
I'd love you to get a couple of used ones for handy money, but my crystal ball says Dennis Kenyon's original estimate of depreciation is extremely pessimistic.
As insurers get the measure of this new entrant to the market, the others will jump on the gravy-train and the price will crash to a realistic level.
I think you're cutting your nose to spite your face, but I think this heli will succeed and Frank will have to seriously up his game.
Pitts, they don't give a flying Fxxk about the product....they'll know the Robbo profitability, they'll know the Guimbal's been certified and appraised by top experts like D.K.....but as an "unknown entity" they've a good excuse to squeeze hard and bleed off as much gravy as they can....as other competition enters the field, they'll compete until the price is realistic. Make hay whilst the sun shines, comes to mind.
they're mere amateurs in the art of screwing punters.I'd love you to get a couple of used ones for handy money, but my crystal ball says Dennis Kenyon's original estimate of depreciation is extremely pessimistic.
As insurers get the measure of this new entrant to the market, the others will jump on the gravy-train and the price will crash to a realistic level.
I think you're cutting your nose to spite your face, but I think this heli will succeed and Frank will have to seriously up his game.
Pitts, they don't give a flying Fxxk about the product....they'll know the Robbo profitability, they'll know the Guimbal's been certified and appraised by top experts like D.K.....but as an "unknown entity" they've a good excuse to squeeze hard and bleed off as much gravy as they can....as other competition enters the field, they'll compete until the price is realistic. Make hay whilst the sun shines, comes to mind.
Last edited by cockney steve; 19th Nov 2012 at 22:03. Reason: Address Pitts' comments
cockney steve
After over 40 years in the trade there were more low hour, & low £ per hour repairs than the other way round.
Tend to agree regarding LR product
HeliHenri
Perhaps the 7 year reason is to instil confidence in a product.
A manufacturer that stands behind product is what is required, if as is said the pricing is to keep cost down, perhaps cost to high in first place.
As is said we all have a point of view mine is I want a fully committed manufacturer, & service network, would not getting paid for warranty work, encourage them to keep me happy.
Was there not some talk of 120 blades taking on water are G2 not made in same facility?
Regarding Insurance as said low hours no history for base , so high premium, perhaps as the machine seems so safe Bruno could do a deal with a Co to at least lower it.
The customer has at present a way of bringing some sense to a market where they appear to be a nuisance rather than a valued client, this is aimed at most if not all of the manufacturers
After over 40 years in the trade there were more low hour, & low £ per hour repairs than the other way round.
Tend to agree regarding LR product
HeliHenri
Perhaps the 7 year reason is to instil confidence in a product.
A manufacturer that stands behind product is what is required, if as is said the pricing is to keep cost down, perhaps cost to high in first place.
As is said we all have a point of view mine is I want a fully committed manufacturer, & service network, would not getting paid for warranty work, encourage them to keep me happy.
Was there not some talk of 120 blades taking on water are G2 not made in same facility?
Regarding Insurance as said low hours no history for base , so high premium, perhaps as the machine seems so safe Bruno could do a deal with a Co to at least lower it.
The customer has at present a way of bringing some sense to a market where they appear to be a nuisance rather than a valued client, this is aimed at most if not all of the manufacturers
Last edited by 500e; 19th Nov 2012 at 22:12.
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If I were in the market for a Cabri-sized helicopter, I'd do the math on all the available models, compare features and specs against the mission, and make a decision based on performance to mission, capital costs, and operating costs. I'd remember that all--without exception--warranties are limited in some way. Then I'd sharpen my pencil and...
If manufacturer 'A' provides a 12 month warranty which includes labor on replaced parts, I would put a 'zero' in that cell of my first-year operating cost spreadsheet. (In reality, there will always be something in that cell of course).
If manufacturer 'B' provides a 12 month 'parts-only' warranty, I'd add some costs for assumed labor in the first year lifecycle cost spreadsheet. I'd make a best-guess as to estimated manhours to rectify an assumed number of failures (a good AMT can help here), and add those costs in column 'B'. Sure it's just a guess, but without a large fleet to analyze failure rates, that's all insurance companies do anyway. That's why insurance rates are probably higher for the Cabri.
I'd tally up the numbers in column 'A', then column 'B', weigh those costs against features and specs, and make my decision.
Not sure why it's much more complicated than that.
Or, make a decision the way my wife picks out her new car: looks and color!
If manufacturer 'A' provides a 12 month warranty which includes labor on replaced parts, I would put a 'zero' in that cell of my first-year operating cost spreadsheet. (In reality, there will always be something in that cell of course).
If manufacturer 'B' provides a 12 month 'parts-only' warranty, I'd add some costs for assumed labor in the first year lifecycle cost spreadsheet. I'd make a best-guess as to estimated manhours to rectify an assumed number of failures (a good AMT can help here), and add those costs in column 'B'. Sure it's just a guess, but without a large fleet to analyze failure rates, that's all insurance companies do anyway. That's why insurance rates are probably higher for the Cabri.
I'd tally up the numbers in column 'A', then column 'B', weigh those costs against features and specs, and make my decision.
Not sure why it's much more complicated than that.
Or, make a decision the way my wife picks out her new car: looks and color!
Hello sotitas,
I'm so sorry but you won't be corrected.
Guimbal statement :
"Key components of the helicopter, masterpieces of technology, the blades are entirely manufactured, controlled and balanced in our factory."
500e and his brother Hughes500 (they've got the same family name) are just trying to find reasons for not buying the G2 but it's becoming more and more difficult. I'm joking but I'm wondering a little bit ...
.
I'm so sorry but you won't be corrected.
Guimbal statement :
"Key components of the helicopter, masterpieces of technology, the blades are entirely manufactured, controlled and balanced in our factory."
500e and his brother Hughes500 (they've got the same family name) are just trying to find reasons for not buying the G2 but it's becoming more and more difficult. I'm joking but I'm wondering a little bit ...
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 20th Nov 2012 at 06:57.
I hear all on prices, service, warranty but I that still overlooks the major point of the G2 which is some people just won't or wouldn't fly a helicopter if the only choice was a Robinson.
To some that might seem an over reaction but its very real. Now I don't actually think an R22 out performs the G2 in any area (save for perhaps cost) but when some won't even get in one it becomes accademic.
In terms of cost - the G2 seems in the same ranges as a Hughes 269 or Sch300 and thats what? £35/hr more than an R22.. So if you are learning thats £1500 over your 45 hours, seems the best bargain ever
To some that might seem an over reaction but its very real. Now I don't actually think an R22 out performs the G2 in any area (save for perhaps cost) but when some won't even get in one it becomes accademic.
In terms of cost - the G2 seems in the same ranges as a Hughes 269 or Sch300 and thats what? £35/hr more than an R22.. So if you are learning thats £1500 over your 45 hours, seems the best bargain ever
Blades are made in the factory, it was me that suggested having trim tabs fitted so you could track the blades and remove the vibration in high speed flight, rather a schoolboy error, the only thing that lets the older machines down apart from being forced to put a 19th century engine in it !!!
HH
Brothers Nooo
Like minded maybe, I have all ways felt my customers are my main concern, I try to give them a fast efficient service with products that the manufacturer is 100% behind, it has done me no harm, & have been in business since 1963 with both motor trade & electronics company's.
Don't need a reason not to buy may be a wonderful machine but no warranty payments, poor customer response, would be a good start.
Brothers Nooo
Like minded maybe, I have all ways felt my customers are my main concern, I try to give them a fast efficient service with products that the manufacturer is 100% behind, it has done me no harm, & have been in business since 1963 with both motor trade & electronics company's.
Don't need a reason not to buy may be a wonderful machine but no warranty payments, poor customer response, would be a good start.
Hello 500e,
You're right, the same like minded than Hughes500 and as you say in your last post :
Hum ... that what you or H500 say to your customers but is it always the reality ?!!! Whises and reality are very often different ...Maybe you don't run a business using 269/300 but H500 do.
Here are the two last posts of you and H500 in the last page of the thread "Hughes 269/Schweizer 300 series" of this forum, the aircraft you know well, you're talking about the manufacturer :
H500
You
.
So we can say that paradise don't exist on hearth.
I do agree that Guimbal is not big enough yet to bring to you eveything you would love but maybe you should to be just a little bit more realistic.
.
You're right, the same like minded than Hughes500 and as you say in your last post :
I try to give them a fast efficient service with products that the manufacturer is 100% behind
Here are the two last posts of you and H500 in the last page of the thread "Hughes 269/Schweizer 300 series" of this forum, the aircraft you know well, you're talking about the manufacturer :
H500
spares support can be best described as a joke. I went aog for dampers but was told about 6 months, couldnt even give a lead time on a main rotor drive shaft.
How can a supposed world class Co. screw up so badly
So we can say that paradise don't exist on hearth.
I do agree that Guimbal is not big enough yet to bring to you eveything you would love but maybe you should to be just a little bit more realistic.
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Nov 2012 at 08:19.
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It's a fascinating thread. I think H500 is the voice of the consumer.
The helicopter industry has taken the customer for granted in a way that few other industries could get away with.
So, whilst we all welcome innovative new products, such as the G2, it's specification, technical and safety claims are only part of the story. Anyone parting with hard earned capital will inevitably have serious pre-purchase questions about warranties and customer support going forward. And now is the time to raise these doubts, not later.
It's still a very new helicopter, and early customers do not want to be doing the manufacturer's product development without significant assurances.
In this arena, the S.269/300 remains an excellent, proven product, despite Sikorsky's often frustrating attitude, so Guimbal will need to work hard to win customer confidence, especially in the current financial climate.
The helicopter industry has taken the customer for granted in a way that few other industries could get away with.
So, whilst we all welcome innovative new products, such as the G2, it's specification, technical and safety claims are only part of the story. Anyone parting with hard earned capital will inevitably have serious pre-purchase questions about warranties and customer support going forward. And now is the time to raise these doubts, not later.
It's still a very new helicopter, and early customers do not want to be doing the manufacturer's product development without significant assurances.
In this arena, the S.269/300 remains an excellent, proven product, despite Sikorsky's often frustrating attitude, so Guimbal will need to work hard to win customer confidence, especially in the current financial climate.
Hello FLY7,
If you go on a fixed wing, car, tv, or mobile phone forum, you find exactly the same statement ! 
The early customers are flying the G2 and they are very happy with it. Right, they didn't get the maximum assurances possible when they bought it but they don't regret it. That is reality.
I would rather understand H500 if the G2 was always grounded with technical problems but that absolutely not the case and the first production aircraft is flying for 4 years now.
As I said, I hope that Guimbal will be big enough soon to propose the perfect full warranty wanted by H500 so he can propose to his customers a safe and modern aircraft because you seem to forget that the customers of an operator are consumers too and they've got a voice too, they're fed up to fly old (300) or unsafe (R22) aircrafts
.
.
The helicopter industry has taken the customer for granted in a way that few other industries could get away with.
It's still a very new helicopter, and early customers do not want to be doing the manufacturer's product development without significant assurances
I would rather understand H500 if the G2 was always grounded with technical problems but that absolutely not the case and the first production aircraft is flying for 4 years now.
As I said, I hope that Guimbal will be big enough soon to propose the perfect full warranty wanted by H500 so he can propose to his customers a safe and modern aircraft because you seem to forget that the customers of an operator are consumers too and they've got a voice too, they're fed up to fly old (300) or unsafe (R22) aircrafts
.
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Nov 2012 at 09:18.