Guimbal Cabri G2
Well FLY7, I think that you are taking the problem the wrong way round... "Parting" with capital (?) to buy a tool/machine is only investing, part of everyday business decisions and personnaly, when you are confronted to such a choice as to renew a piston engined trainer helicopter (or a private machine for myself and family) I think that an hypothetical manpower cost for repairs in the first or second year from brand new, opposed to the added "value" of a well concieved and recognised as being superior in so many points, especially security for my clients, the extra "risk of having to pay for work" passes to the background. If competition is like in the case we are discussing left behind, my investment will bring me a lot af custom and my own mind would be at rest every time I take off with a student. The G2 being so similar to the probable next step to turbine (Eurocopter/fenestron), no hesitation in my opinion... Safe flying all. Al
I'd actually become an importer for G2's as I think once they gain traction it will be the only model being sold in that catagory.
At some point they will get to a critical mass that supports a dealer network and then that will support warrantied labour, etc. Either that or they get acquired.
At some point they will get to a critical mass that supports a dealer network and then that will support warrantied labour, etc. Either that or they get acquired.
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What a lot seem to forget, is Guimbal is NOT sitting with a hangar -full of unsold product!
Why offer a carrot to customers whom he can't supply, short-term, anyway?
Cast your minds back to the introduction of the R22.....it sold on price and the fact it was certified......the Rotorway has had a much longer . rockier path towards respectability, with many serious shortcomings to be eliminated in the early years.....people who wanted to fly Rotary, with a fixed-wing income, paid their money and took their choice.
the difference here is the designer has a proven track-record and has got the fundamentals right first time.....just as the Robbo was a step up from Rotorway, so the Cabri is a step-up from the 22.....but in terms of durability and safety, it's light-years ahead.
After 4 years, there have been no newsworthy problems.....we'd have heard about them, here on the Rumour-mill if there had been!
Why offer a carrot to customers whom he can't supply, short-term, anyway?
Cast your minds back to the introduction of the R22.....it sold on price and the fact it was certified......the Rotorway has had a much longer . rockier path towards respectability, with many serious shortcomings to be eliminated in the early years.....people who wanted to fly Rotary, with a fixed-wing income, paid their money and took their choice.
the difference here is the designer has a proven track-record and has got the fundamentals right first time.....just as the Robbo was a step up from Rotorway, so the Cabri is a step-up from the 22.....but in terms of durability and safety, it's light-years ahead.
After 4 years, there have been no newsworthy problems.....we'd have heard about them, here on the Rumour-mill if there had been!
HH
My post
The customer has at present a way of bringing some sense to a market where they appear to be a nuisance rather than a valued client, this is aimed at most if not all of the manufacturers
If I treated my customers as SK or MD I would not have been trading for 2 years let alone 50 years.
HH
Wishes and reality are very often different ...Maybe you don't run a business using 269/300 but H500 does.
Correct but do run a 500, private
The general feeling I get from the industry is we will do it our way, when we feel like it, & at exorbitant cost now go away, don't like it tough, are we trying to get better, why? you are as an owner are stuck with us.
This is not a pop at Bruno, but at the industry in general.
Was talking to a medium sized repair station \ operator yesterday, who on me complaining about 4+ months for repair to MGB said you want my problems regarding warranty lack of back up ( nearly 12 months on one machine aog) & this from a supposed leader! what hope for small operator \ private users.
HH
Hum ... that what you or H500 say to your customers but is it always the reality ?!
No not all ways, cant speak for H500, but when learning to fly training was delivered on time or I was compensated if inconvenienced.
Over the years the customer has been my main focus & at times has cost me considerable losses, due to lack of performance from me or manufacturers, but I have never tried to step aside from what is my responsibility IF I sold it am the person who repairs \ replaces it.
Perhaps this is why we are still going after 50 years
I think the G2 is the way forward modern design, crash worthiness, glass cockpit,not entirely sure cost wise, engine, they must be looking around? looks good & a lot of other +points but as a private owner I want financial stability, look at the slating MD have had, & they had a big customer base. if it is as trouble free as suggested the warranty cost will be small but the feel good factor great.
My post
The customer has at present a way of bringing some sense to a market where they appear to be a nuisance rather than a valued client, this is aimed at most if not all of the manufacturers
If I treated my customers as SK or MD I would not have been trading for 2 years let alone 50 years.
HH
Wishes and reality are very often different ...Maybe you don't run a business using 269/300 but H500 does.
Correct but do run a 500, private
The general feeling I get from the industry is we will do it our way, when we feel like it, & at exorbitant cost now go away, don't like it tough, are we trying to get better, why? you are as an owner are stuck with us.
This is not a pop at Bruno, but at the industry in general.
Was talking to a medium sized repair station \ operator yesterday, who on me complaining about 4+ months for repair to MGB said you want my problems regarding warranty lack of back up ( nearly 12 months on one machine aog) & this from a supposed leader! what hope for small operator \ private users.
HH
Hum ... that what you or H500 say to your customers but is it always the reality ?!
No not all ways, cant speak for H500, but when learning to fly training was delivered on time or I was compensated if inconvenienced.
Over the years the customer has been my main focus & at times has cost me considerable losses, due to lack of performance from me or manufacturers, but I have never tried to step aside from what is my responsibility IF I sold it am the person who repairs \ replaces it.
Perhaps this is why we are still going after 50 years
I think the G2 is the way forward modern design, crash worthiness, glass cockpit,not entirely sure cost wise, engine, they must be looking around? looks good & a lot of other +points but as a private owner I want financial stability, look at the slating MD have had, & they had a big customer base. if it is as trouble free as suggested the warranty cost will be small but the feel good factor great.
Last edited by 500e; 21st Nov 2012 at 10:14.
500e
I do understand your feeling about the helicopter industry in general.
But were're speaking here about Guimbal and his G2.
Do you really think that Bruno Guimbal worked during so long time to produce a so up to date aircraft with so many improvements about safety to protect the life of his future customers just to make easy big money at the expense of these customers.
At the present time, he's offering a parts warranty and not a labor warranty, do you really think that it is because he wants to save money to buy a Bentley ?!!!
You would like a perfect warranty. It's not possible yet. You don't want yet to buy a G2 because of that, that is understandable if you don't want to take the minimum risk but maybe you should stop to say that it's because Bruno is abusing you.
P.S : I hope you will keep your 500 when you'll buy a G2 in the future, it's such a nice aircraft !
.
The general feeling I get from the industry is we will do it our way, when we feel like it, & at exorbitant cost now go away, don't like it tough, are we trying to get better, why? you are as an owner are stuck with us.
This is not a pop at Bruno, but at the industry in general.
This is not a pop at Bruno, but at the industry in general.
But were're speaking here about Guimbal and his G2.
Do you really think that Bruno Guimbal worked during so long time to produce a so up to date aircraft with so many improvements about safety to protect the life of his future customers just to make easy big money at the expense of these customers.
At the present time, he's offering a parts warranty and not a labor warranty, do you really think that it is because he wants to save money to buy a Bentley ?!!!
You would like a perfect warranty. It's not possible yet. You don't want yet to buy a G2 because of that, that is understandable if you don't want to take the minimum risk but maybe you should stop to say that it's because Bruno is abusing you.
P.S : I hope you will keep your 500 when you'll buy a G2 in the future, it's such a nice aircraft !
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Nov 2012 at 18:01.
Alicopter
I used to run a large family owned logistics operation ( in xs of 100 vehicles) yes you are correct when stating you are investing, but when choosing which to purchase the warrany and sevice would carry a large percentage in deciding where one spent the company money. Bear in mind the vehicles in many cases were working on average 19 hours a day and driving in xs of 100k miles in a year. If wagons werent on the road we didnt have any customers and hence no money in our pockets with the possibility of 450 staff being out of work.
Now lets move forward to the aviation world, Customer service is ****e, we will repair it when we get round to doing it in our own time. We wont provide the spares ( yes Skirosky MD and Eurocopter plus others ). In this day and age the customer is king, if one doesnt look that way you dont have customers unless you are in a monoply position ( to a degree the R22).
Now money is tight and margins are cut to the bone you cant afford to have machines down or be paying for the manufacturers problems.
In my case I was happy to be the Cabri distributor,( went down to see Bruno but was beaten by Cotswold, dont have a problem with and I really hope they survive). I would love to have the machines, yes I can afford them but I am being asked to
1. Take on a very new machine where the oldest one has barely done 1000 hours; so no long term info on reliability
2. No expert maintenance company so am paying for someone else's learning curve
3. Insurance that is more than double a Schweizer ( £ 6000 extra per machine)
4. Go to composite blades , see the problems EC have with theirs
5. go to composite frame, see problems AW have had with theirs
6. Go with a small company that in the words of the owner has/had a cash flow issue
7. Go with a company that took 3 weeks to repond to a sales request, even now the UK distributor in his own words was too busy to reply for 4 days
8. The uncertainity of the economy
This all adds up to me taking an awful lot of risk in investing in a new type and blow me down just when I was going to write out the deposit cheque i am told there is no labour warranty parts only, one risk too far for me I am afraid.
Dont get me wrong most of the above can be levelled at all the manufacturers , if we as consumer dont stand up we will continue to have the pea taken.
To all those giving me a hard time on the subject, havent seen you putting your hand in your pocket !
I used to run a large family owned logistics operation ( in xs of 100 vehicles) yes you are correct when stating you are investing, but when choosing which to purchase the warrany and sevice would carry a large percentage in deciding where one spent the company money. Bear in mind the vehicles in many cases were working on average 19 hours a day and driving in xs of 100k miles in a year. If wagons werent on the road we didnt have any customers and hence no money in our pockets with the possibility of 450 staff being out of work.
Now lets move forward to the aviation world, Customer service is ****e, we will repair it when we get round to doing it in our own time. We wont provide the spares ( yes Skirosky MD and Eurocopter plus others ). In this day and age the customer is king, if one doesnt look that way you dont have customers unless you are in a monoply position ( to a degree the R22).
Now money is tight and margins are cut to the bone you cant afford to have machines down or be paying for the manufacturers problems.
In my case I was happy to be the Cabri distributor,( went down to see Bruno but was beaten by Cotswold, dont have a problem with and I really hope they survive). I would love to have the machines, yes I can afford them but I am being asked to
1. Take on a very new machine where the oldest one has barely done 1000 hours; so no long term info on reliability
2. No expert maintenance company so am paying for someone else's learning curve
3. Insurance that is more than double a Schweizer ( £ 6000 extra per machine)
4. Go to composite blades , see the problems EC have with theirs
5. go to composite frame, see problems AW have had with theirs
6. Go with a small company that in the words of the owner has/had a cash flow issue
7. Go with a company that took 3 weeks to repond to a sales request, even now the UK distributor in his own words was too busy to reply for 4 days
8. The uncertainity of the economy
This all adds up to me taking an awful lot of risk in investing in a new type and blow me down just when I was going to write out the deposit cheque i am told there is no labour warranty parts only, one risk too far for me I am afraid.
Dont get me wrong most of the above can be levelled at all the manufacturers , if we as consumer dont stand up we will continue to have the pea taken.
To all those giving me a hard time on the subject, havent seen you putting your hand in your pocket !
H500
And you won't see me untill .... I hope soon !
Because I'm giving my money to a thief, oups sorry ! to a commercial operator
who has a G2 and I give it to nobody but him when I want to fly in a 2 seats, he's happy and you know what ? I'm happy too !
A commercial operator and a customer happy for the same reason : the Cabri G2 !
.
To all those giving me a hard time on the subject, havent seen you putting your hand in your pocket !
Because I'm giving my money to a thief, oups sorry ! to a commercial operator
who has a G2 and I give it to nobody but him when I want to fly in a 2 seats, he's happy and you know what ? I'm happy too ! A commercial operator and a customer happy for the same reason : the Cabri G2 !
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Nov 2012 at 15:26.
To all those giving me a hard time on the subject, havent seen you putting your hand in your pocket
Bruno chose to take a very very big risk by starting this business.
My operator chose to take a risk by buying a G2 with only part warranty.
Maybe he's wrong and crasy but thanks to Bruno's job, he thinks that this risk worth it, he was flying 35 hours a month with a R22, he's flying 50 hours with the G2 (with a 15% increase in hourly rates due to the price of the G2). And he's thinking to buy a second one at the end of next year.
What else ?!!!
P.S : he's happy but his wife is even more happy than him !
No, it's not because of me, she doesn't miss the previous training helicopter ...
.
My operator chose to take a risk by buying a G2 with only part warranty.
Maybe he's wrong and crasy but thanks to Bruno's job, he thinks that this risk worth it, he was flying 35 hours a month with a R22, he's flying 50 hours with the G2 (with a 15% increase in hourly rates due to the price of the G2). And he's thinking to buy a second one at the end of next year.
What else ?!!!
P.S : he's happy but his wife is even more happy than him !
No, it's not because of me
, she doesn't miss the previous training helicopter ....
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Nov 2012 at 17:10.
HeliHenry
i am really pleased that you enjoy flying the G2. You are corect in everything you say about it. I have chosen at the moment to keep the companies money in the bank ( sometimes I wonder if that is such a good idea)
Easy for you to preach when you havent spent Euro 285k
i am really pleased that you enjoy flying the G2. You are corect in everything you say about it. I have chosen at the moment to keep the companies money in the bank ( sometimes I wonder if that is such a good idea)
Easy for you to preach when you havent spent Euro 285k
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I agree with 500 and hughes, HeliHenry you keep defending Bruno by saying there have been no or few problems with the G2 which makes it all the more incredible that he is not prepared to stand by it by giving a full warranty, even the cheapest cars give at least 12 months.
I am surprised that EU law doesn't insist on warranty under sale of goods like it does to almost every other product. I also think that not giving a full warranty doesn't reflect well on how reliable Bruno thinks his ship will be in service, after all if he thinks the product is excellent how much risk does he think he is exposed to by giving warranty.
Conversely if he is worried about how much he is going to have to shell out on warranty labour costs then why shouldn't potential customers also be wary of how much they are going to have to shell out.
Generally in business you either stand by your product or you plant the seeds of doubt. After all surely Bruno is best placed to gamble on potential warranty costs because he has inside knowledge of how well the product is put together, and the quality of parts he is using to do so.
I am surprised that EU law doesn't insist on warranty under sale of goods like it does to almost every other product. I also think that not giving a full warranty doesn't reflect well on how reliable Bruno thinks his ship will be in service, after all if he thinks the product is excellent how much risk does he think he is exposed to by giving warranty.
Conversely if he is worried about how much he is going to have to shell out on warranty labour costs then why shouldn't potential customers also be wary of how much they are going to have to shell out.
Generally in business you either stand by your product or you plant the seeds of doubt. After all surely Bruno is best placed to gamble on potential warranty costs because he has inside knowledge of how well the product is put together, and the quality of parts he is using to do so.
Last edited by EddieHeli; 21st Nov 2012 at 17:35.
Easy for you to preach when you havent spent Euro 285k
Hughes500, you have lot of experience in this business and you react depending on that experience so I didn't (and will never) tell you that you are wrong to be carefull. A labor warranty would be perfect.
Maybe you should wait one more year to see if the G2 is still what it is at the present time. There will be more G2 flying so more feedback and maybe ... a labor warranty if guimbal is big enough at that time !
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 21st Nov 2012 at 18:27.
HH
I thought I had come up with a great compromise. Asked for a euro10k discount, This money would be used to cover labour IF it went wrong, if it didnt after 2 years the distributor would get the balance plus interest back. Was basically told to poke off. Have now given up for a couple of years unless someone comes back to me
I thought I had come up with a great compromise. Asked for a euro10k discount, This money would be used to cover labour IF it went wrong, if it didnt after 2 years the distributor would get the balance plus interest back. Was basically told to poke off. Have now given up for a couple of years unless someone comes back to me
H500,
Indeed, your idea was good, you've done the maximum you could. They're still too small.
As you don't want to take any risk, two years are perfects for you : more than 100 G2 flying, more than 100.000 hrs and a fleet leader with about 3000 hrs. the G2 will still be a very good aircraft as it is now then you will be able to say : GO !
P.S : mind in which bank you put your money in the meantime ...
and fortunately for you, you're waiting in a old but good aircraft
.
Indeed, your idea was good, you've done the maximum you could. They're still too small.
As you don't want to take any risk, two years are perfects for you : more than 100 G2 flying, more than 100.000 hrs and a fleet leader with about 3000 hrs. the G2 will still be a very good aircraft as it is now then you will be able to say : GO !
P.S : mind in which bank you put your money in the meantime ...
and fortunately for you, you're waiting in a old but good aircraft
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 27th Nov 2012 at 14:22.
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Light helicopter warranties
It wasn't so long ago that the Robinson warranty
was only one year rather than the current two.
http://www.robinsonheli.com/document...4_warranty.pdf
If I stretch my mind back to 1988 and my first R22,there was a problem with the engine after just a few months which necessitated the engine being removed and sent to the Lycoming agent. The engine problem was fixed and the engine re-fitted by the Robinson distributor who then sent me a bill for the labour involved in removal and re-fitting the engine plus transport.
During subsequent discussion I was told that as this was a Lycoming problem I should look to them for reimbursement. To which I replied that I had purchased both the engine and airframe from them as one entity and it was thus their responsibility. I also mentioned Sale of Goods Act and merchantable quality.
No further discussion or correspondence took place.
was only one year rather than the current two.
http://www.robinsonheli.com/document...4_warranty.pdf
If I stretch my mind back to 1988 and my first R22,there was a problem with the engine after just a few months which necessitated the engine being removed and sent to the Lycoming agent. The engine problem was fixed and the engine re-fitted by the Robinson distributor who then sent me a bill for the labour involved in removal and re-fitting the engine plus transport.
During subsequent discussion I was told that as this was a Lycoming problem I should look to them for reimbursement. To which I replied that I had purchased both the engine and airframe from them as one entity and it was thus their responsibility. I also mentioned Sale of Goods Act and merchantable quality.
No further discussion or correspondence took place.
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Cabri Start-up tutorial
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Cabri G2
I am currently looking for a replacement of one of our R22's..
We mainly use the helicopters for training..
We have 3 options
1. Another R22, but i find them pretty expensive in purchase price and also the hourly price difference between the R22 and R44 Raven I is not very great.
2.a R44 raven I, we currently fly 3 of them but we use them mostly for other helicopter operations. a R44 is thus broader useable then the R22.
3. Cabri G2, I hear different stories about this helicopter, some people are very enthousiast about it when others are not that positive..
Can any of you tell me more about you experience with the Cabri ??
We mainly use the helicopters for training..
We have 3 options
1. Another R22, but i find them pretty expensive in purchase price and also the hourly price difference between the R22 and R44 Raven I is not very great.
2.a R44 raven I, we currently fly 3 of them but we use them mostly for other helicopter operations. a R44 is thus broader useable then the R22.
3. Cabri G2, I hear different stories about this helicopter, some people are very enthousiast about it when others are not that positive..
Can any of you tell me more about you experience with the Cabri ??