What are the job prospects for new CPLs? (MERGED)
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
From: 18 Degrees North
When I started in 1997 I was told about the age demographic that was going to create jobs soon and I am still hearing it, I don't really believe it though.
My own observations suggest that it is harder now to get your first IFR job than it was then (no IR required in them days, pre JAR),
Jobs seem to depend more on the boom/bust of the North Sea more than anything else, booms I can remember in 1998, 2001, 2005-7, 2012-
I reckon the age thing is just a lot of bunk
My own observations suggest that it is harder now to get your first IFR job than it was then (no IR required in them days, pre JAR),
Jobs seem to depend more on the boom/bust of the North Sea more than anything else, booms I can remember in 1998, 2001, 2005-7, 2012-
I reckon the age thing is just a lot of bunk
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,328
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
"Are you assuming because i only have 5 posts that i don't have a clue. Well you know what they say about making an assumption.
I have been a heli pilot for 16 years."
No I'm not. And how dare you assume that just because I mention that there are some jobs available now, and maybe on the horizon in the near future, that we are just saying that to get the money. I know a lot of Chief Pilots and owners of companies who have piles of mostly useless resumes. As I have mentioned before, 3 of my students are company owners who have all expressed difficulty in finding good staff. One of them is well known for taking on low timers.
Being a heli pilot for 16 years does not mean anything. You could still be ignorant. Equally, you could be really good one having been one for only two weeks.
Yes, certain parts of the heli industry are oversubscribed - equally, many others are crying out for staff.
Phil
I have been a heli pilot for 16 years."
No I'm not. And how dare you assume that just because I mention that there are some jobs available now, and maybe on the horizon in the near future, that we are just saying that to get the money. I know a lot of Chief Pilots and owners of companies who have piles of mostly useless resumes. As I have mentioned before, 3 of my students are company owners who have all expressed difficulty in finding good staff. One of them is well known for taking on low timers.
Being a heli pilot for 16 years does not mean anything. You could still be ignorant. Equally, you could be really good one having been one for only two weeks.
Yes, certain parts of the heli industry are oversubscribed - equally, many others are crying out for staff.
Phil
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
From: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
gulliBell, you guys down in NZ have quite high ratio of heli pilots per capita and that's before we count all the 'emigrees' to Australia in search of more low timer jobs and warmer pastures.
Are you sure those guys you mention, high timers without job right now, are happy to relocate to ME or Asia?
Regarding the demographics, I'd say it's not as much due to Vietnam etc, but rather reduced flow of military 'retirees' to civvy flying and amount of new helicopter ops, contracts, HEMS bases etc. Couple that with ever-increasing cost of initial training and various 'bits' after (time or ratings).
Well, in the USA, there are many low timers or relatively junior instructors these days thanks to the ex-mil personnel getting grants/sponsorship towards career retraining. NZ has seen funding/loan availability for few big schools offering academic and flight training for fixed wing or heli, hence more lowtimers there on market, too. Definitely at least more jobs in NZ and Australia for people starting out, compared to some European countries.
I saw presentation slides (CPL/ATPl holders per age or total in country and HEMS pilots age, not some school marketing) for certain Central European country. If the mins stay as they are (not that high for twin PIC EMS jobs), in 3-5 years they'd have problems to crew bases. Even heard of suggestions of mandating HEMS as multicrew on EC135 in the ops regs to make the staffing easier.
Jobs and opportunities vary from country, company to timing/year or minimum flight time/ratings. While it may be hard to get job in one country, not as hard in another, if one can 'fit in'/relocate.
Are you sure those guys you mention, high timers without job right now, are happy to relocate to ME or Asia?
Regarding the demographics, I'd say it's not as much due to Vietnam etc, but rather reduced flow of military 'retirees' to civvy flying and amount of new helicopter ops, contracts, HEMS bases etc. Couple that with ever-increasing cost of initial training and various 'bits' after (time or ratings).
Well, in the USA, there are many low timers or relatively junior instructors these days thanks to the ex-mil personnel getting grants/sponsorship towards career retraining. NZ has seen funding/loan availability for few big schools offering academic and flight training for fixed wing or heli, hence more lowtimers there on market, too. Definitely at least more jobs in NZ and Australia for people starting out, compared to some European countries.
I saw presentation slides (CPL/ATPl holders per age or total in country and HEMS pilots age, not some school marketing) for certain Central European country. If the mins stay as they are (not that high for twin PIC EMS jobs), in 3-5 years they'd have problems to crew bases. Even heard of suggestions of mandating HEMS as multicrew on EC135 in the ops regs to make the staffing easier.
Jobs and opportunities vary from country, company to timing/year or minimum flight time/ratings. While it may be hard to get job in one country, not as hard in another, if one can 'fit in'/relocate.
Last edited by MartinCh; 22nd January 2013 at 22:37.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 71
From: Wanaka, NZ
Abu Dhabi
Doha
Macau
Malaysia
Myanmar
PNG
Indonesia
Australia
Thailand
Africa
Last edited by gulliBell; 23rd January 2013 at 00:50.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
From: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
Well, it starts to look like Ryanair's disinterest in experienced Fo's who'd be too expensive or not 'malleable' to their desire.
Hard to believe either CHC, Bristow and some bigger more local operators/their partners would deliberately overlook people with such amount of twin time.
Especially the ME companies that seem to take on anyone with 1000-1500hrs on helicopters and more. With those times, they're bound to have some 'useful' types, too.
I think the 225 MGB headache and 139 and 92 deliveries don't help people with Bell twins time either. Beancounters 'saving' money..
Hard to believe either CHC, Bristow and some bigger more local operators/their partners would deliberately overlook people with such amount of twin time.
Especially the ME companies that seem to take on anyone with 1000-1500hrs on helicopters and more. With those times, they're bound to have some 'useful' types, too.
I think the 225 MGB headache and 139 and 92 deliveries don't help people with Bell twins time either. Beancounters 'saving' money..
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 71
From: Wanaka, NZ
It seems to be the case that a "better fit" for those operators mentioned are the younger guys with solid entry level experience that they can slot into a co-pilot seat for a few years, and advance those guys who have served their co-pilot apprentice time. Rather than direct hire experienced Captains over their senior co-pilots who are worthy of progression.
Pilot Job
Joined: Mar 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 659
Likes: 13
From: Under my coconut tree
heliwork,
I wish you only luck in your search. It is so hard to get a start in this business, a very cruel sea.
Been in the same catch 22 and its really tough.
Best of luck buddy
I wish you only luck in your search. It is so hard to get a start in this business, a very cruel sea.
Been in the same catch 22 and its really tough.
Best of luck buddy
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
From: Iceland
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Europe
I search employment, Pilot or Co-pilot
Hello together
I am looking for a pilot job. Has anyone a good idea?
Available from now. Able to relocate, if you need ASAP.
Time:
350TT
Rating:
BH 206, BH 47, R44, R22
HelicopterLicenses:
FAA CPL Rotorcraft+ IFR Rating
EASA CPL Rotorcraft + NIT Rating
CDN PPL Rotorcraft
Medical:
JAA medicalclass 1 and 2
EASA medical second class
Other:
LanguageProficiency Level 4
Authorization certificate to use theHelipads in France.
Robinson Safety Course
Dangerous Goods Course
15 year’sexperience as a Deputy Chief Helicopter Marshaller and Base Manager, withadditional function as Helicopter Hoist Operator HHO (Night, Evacuation, Searchand Rescue Mission), Technician for Human External Cargo HEC (Sling loadoperation, Logging, Fire fighting, Transport generally, Montage and more),Rescue Specialist, Instructor HEMS and Operational Manager. Different coursesfor special helicopter operation techniques.
For resumelet me know.
Thank you for your help to find ajob!!! :-))
I am looking for a pilot job. Has anyone a good idea?
Available from now. Able to relocate, if you need ASAP.
Time:
350TT
Rating:
BH 206, BH 47, R44, R22
HelicopterLicenses:
FAA CPL Rotorcraft+ IFR Rating
EASA CPL Rotorcraft + NIT Rating
CDN PPL Rotorcraft
Medical:
JAA medicalclass 1 and 2
EASA medical second class
Other:
LanguageProficiency Level 4
Authorization certificate to use theHelipads in France.
Robinson Safety Course
Dangerous Goods Course
15 year’sexperience as a Deputy Chief Helicopter Marshaller and Base Manager, withadditional function as Helicopter Hoist Operator HHO (Night, Evacuation, Searchand Rescue Mission), Technician for Human External Cargo HEC (Sling loadoperation, Logging, Fire fighting, Transport generally, Montage and more),Rescue Specialist, Instructor HEMS and Operational Manager. Different coursesfor special helicopter operation techniques.
For resumelet me know.
Thank you for your help to find ajob!!! :-))
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
From: Netherlands
What are the chances
To start off, I read a lot of threads/topics here and at Airwork (NL) about pilot jobs.
Why do I choose this part of the forum and not the wannabee part?
I am looking for the experienced and experts of the Helicopter world (and this is the place to be).
Another reason is that according to a source in the EASA the fixed wing market is decreasing but the rotary market is increasing and wannebee forum is mostly fixed.
For example in Italia the amount of helicopters doubled in 2 years’ time.
Is this increase visible in jobs? Maybe but as far as I can see they all want the golden egg -> young, most hours, most type ratings and willing to work for free
The best people who know what the market is doing are the people working in that market, than I end up with you, the experts
My question is not if I should become a helicopter pilot, but I am wondering what is my personal chance to get hired as a fulltime rotary pilot? (took me a while to think if I should or shouldn’t ask it)
Most of you experienced the virus of wanting to be a pilot from when you were young, at least I have.
My background:
Education: Bachelor Aviation studies Engineering, which includes Maintenance, Performance, Navigation, Fleet planning, Rules etc.
Internship: CHC Helicopters Netherlans, Working as an engineer designing and writing Repairs and Modifications.
Graduation thesis: National Aerospace Laboratory of the Netherlands, Designing and creating a realistic Helicopter to building operation for in the Simulator (Specific wind model), got publication on my name, model is approved to be realistic by HEMS pilots for that specific building.
Current job: System Install Engineer with a semiconductor company, Install there machines worldwide, machines are High Tech System +70 million dollars a pieces, +50% of the time at customer side, mostly Asia, got enough experience with different cultures and WOWorking/WOLiving.
Age: 24
Able to live outside Holland: YES
Flying experience(in the cockpit): Small aircraft -> Cessna, Ultra-light, Diamond (no licenses).
Simulator experience: Multi role helicopter simulator, Apache simulator, F16 simulator, B778 simulator.
The question is, what are my chances of being hires as a fulltime helicopter pilot?
Why do I choose this part of the forum and not the wannabee part?
I am looking for the experienced and experts of the Helicopter world (and this is the place to be).
Another reason is that according to a source in the EASA the fixed wing market is decreasing but the rotary market is increasing and wannebee forum is mostly fixed.
For example in Italia the amount of helicopters doubled in 2 years’ time.
Is this increase visible in jobs? Maybe but as far as I can see they all want the golden egg -> young, most hours, most type ratings and willing to work for free
The best people who know what the market is doing are the people working in that market, than I end up with you, the experts
My question is not if I should become a helicopter pilot, but I am wondering what is my personal chance to get hired as a fulltime rotary pilot? (took me a while to think if I should or shouldn’t ask it)
Most of you experienced the virus of wanting to be a pilot from when you were young, at least I have.
My background:
Education: Bachelor Aviation studies Engineering, which includes Maintenance, Performance, Navigation, Fleet planning, Rules etc.
Internship: CHC Helicopters Netherlans, Working as an engineer designing and writing Repairs and Modifications.
Graduation thesis: National Aerospace Laboratory of the Netherlands, Designing and creating a realistic Helicopter to building operation for in the Simulator (Specific wind model), got publication on my name, model is approved to be realistic by HEMS pilots for that specific building.
Current job: System Install Engineer with a semiconductor company, Install there machines worldwide, machines are High Tech System +70 million dollars a pieces, +50% of the time at customer side, mostly Asia, got enough experience with different cultures and WOWorking/WOLiving.
Age: 24
Able to live outside Holland: YES
Flying experience(in the cockpit): Small aircraft -> Cessna, Ultra-light, Diamond (no licenses).
Simulator experience: Multi role helicopter simulator, Apache simulator, F16 simulator, B778 simulator.
The question is, what are my chances of being hires as a fulltime helicopter pilot?
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 161
Likes: 5
From: UK
For example in Italia the amount of helicopters doubled in 2 years’ time.
Helicopter companies in Italy are struggling to survive!!!!!!!
I know pilots with 1000 hours helicopter time single engine turbine experience (like me) who can't find a job in Italy, that why many of us have gone abroad.
How I see it is: if there is a will there is a way! but it's VERY difficult and you must start off by leaving Europe and going to the US for as much time as you can get to stay there.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
From: Netherlands
Future?
A bit about the future...
Today's helicopter market is enjoying strong growth and demand for helicopter pilots will only increase in the future, both here in Norway and around the world. Helicopters are currently used in many different areas. Air ambulance, Search & Rescue, transporting donor organs, offshore flying, the energy sector (line pulling, line inspections, developments, etc.), installation work, environmental management, heli-skiing, sightseeing, taxi, photography, filming – the market is endless and global!
The domestic market in Scandinavia has grown steadily in the last few years, and future developments within the energy sector indicate there will be major projects with a big need for helicopters.
The offshore industry in Norway and the UK is growing strongly. New finds are generating optimism throughout the offshore industry, which in turn is increasing the need for helicopter transport. The number of rigs in Norway alone will increase from 30 to 50 by 2015. These will come on top of fixed installations. The Barents Sea and Russia are completely new markets and will be very busy in the future. Not just because of the oil sector, but also because of the environment and environmental protection, including Search & Rescue. In 2020, the Norwegian government will decide whether or not today's Search & Rescue (Norwegian Armed Forces) will be privatized. The opportunities are endless!
China is emerging as a new market. Market analyses indicate that China alone will need more than 15,000 pilots by 2020. The west coast of Africa, Brazil, Venezuela, the USA, Australia, Angola, Kenya, Cyprus and Russia – all these countries are experiencing higher levels of oil industry activity.
There are big differences from country to country when it comes to the number of hours you need to fly, for example, offshore. It is often the customer who sets the pilot hours requirements, not the helicopter operator.
Today's helicopter market is enjoying strong growth and demand for helicopter pilots will only increase in the future, both here in Norway and around the world. Helicopters are currently used in many different areas. Air ambulance, Search & Rescue, transporting donor organs, offshore flying, the energy sector (line pulling, line inspections, developments, etc.), installation work, environmental management, heli-skiing, sightseeing, taxi, photography, filming – the market is endless and global!
The domestic market in Scandinavia has grown steadily in the last few years, and future developments within the energy sector indicate there will be major projects with a big need for helicopters.
The offshore industry in Norway and the UK is growing strongly. New finds are generating optimism throughout the offshore industry, which in turn is increasing the need for helicopter transport. The number of rigs in Norway alone will increase from 30 to 50 by 2015. These will come on top of fixed installations. The Barents Sea and Russia are completely new markets and will be very busy in the future. Not just because of the oil sector, but also because of the environment and environmental protection, including Search & Rescue. In 2020, the Norwegian government will decide whether or not today's Search & Rescue (Norwegian Armed Forces) will be privatized. The opportunities are endless!
China is emerging as a new market. Market analyses indicate that China alone will need more than 15,000 pilots by 2020. The west coast of Africa, Brazil, Venezuela, the USA, Australia, Angola, Kenya, Cyprus and Russia – all these countries are experiencing higher levels of oil industry activity.
There are big differences from country to country when it comes to the number of hours you need to fly, for example, offshore. It is often the customer who sets the pilot hours requirements, not the helicopter operator.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: FL450
I have been flying helicopters and fixed wing for 30 years and have read dozens of such predictions. Not once has that outlook materialised!
These reports are written by spin doctors trying to ease that dollar from your pocket, nothing more.
Getting a flying job in aviation has always been and always will be a massive struggle with history littered with failures. Only the minority succeed.
These reports are written by spin doctors trying to ease that dollar from your pocket, nothing more.
Getting a flying job in aviation has always been and always will be a massive struggle with history littered with failures. Only the minority succeed.
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 56
From: UK
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
From: Do I come here often?
Head above the parapet!
I'm Chief Pilot and Head of Ops for a good size corporate/charter operator. I get a dozen or so C.Vs a week, what never ceases to astound me is how few people e-mail their C.V and don't run it through a spell check first. Come on guys how can I take you seriously if you send me something a twelve year old would send?
Secondly, do some research, I reply to every e-mailed C.V. What is the point of sending me your C.V if you don't have a JAR license or I.R? There is a huge recession going on and while I will type rate the right people I will bond them, I don't have a budget for I.Rs and a simple glance at our company website should give you a clue that what I really need is people with some miles under their belts and solid time on their I.Rs. With 350 hours on a Robbo and 206 I'm not going to let you loose with one of my IFR twins and precious customers. I had one young man walk in off the street, C.V in hand who got mighty aggressive when I told him I would keep his C.V but couldn't hire him because our MINIMUM requirement is 2 500 hours with current I.R.
EASA is making the career development of young pilots harder, and the key man insurers of the customers are making it almost impossible when they are the ones with the 2 500 hour/IFR rule. As for co-pilots, I wish I could. I need every pilot to be able to go either seat in more than one type, we are getting more and more enquiries for two crew, but I simply can't afford co-pilots.
I really don't think a career is possible in rotary aviation any more, just a succession of jobs, some better than others. The net result is the experienced guys are getting far more experience than they need, the new guys none, and the experience gap is now not such a gap, more a chasm.
When anyone asks me these days "fixed or rotary?" I always say fixed. at least there's some security in planks.
SND
I'm Chief Pilot and Head of Ops for a good size corporate/charter operator. I get a dozen or so C.Vs a week, what never ceases to astound me is how few people e-mail their C.V and don't run it through a spell check first. Come on guys how can I take you seriously if you send me something a twelve year old would send?
Secondly, do some research, I reply to every e-mailed C.V. What is the point of sending me your C.V if you don't have a JAR license or I.R? There is a huge recession going on and while I will type rate the right people I will bond them, I don't have a budget for I.Rs and a simple glance at our company website should give you a clue that what I really need is people with some miles under their belts and solid time on their I.Rs. With 350 hours on a Robbo and 206 I'm not going to let you loose with one of my IFR twins and precious customers. I had one young man walk in off the street, C.V in hand who got mighty aggressive when I told him I would keep his C.V but couldn't hire him because our MINIMUM requirement is 2 500 hours with current I.R.
EASA is making the career development of young pilots harder, and the key man insurers of the customers are making it almost impossible when they are the ones with the 2 500 hour/IFR rule. As for co-pilots, I wish I could. I need every pilot to be able to go either seat in more than one type, we are getting more and more enquiries for two crew, but I simply can't afford co-pilots.
I really don't think a career is possible in rotary aviation any more, just a succession of jobs, some better than others. The net result is the experienced guys are getting far more experience than they need, the new guys none, and the experience gap is now not such a gap, more a chasm.
When anyone asks me these days "fixed or rotary?" I always say fixed. at least there's some security in planks.
SND
Last edited by Sir Niall Dementia; 15th June 2013 at 07:46.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: UK
Sir Niall Dementia
I've probably not had the same privileged upbringing or education as you. So I'd appreciate it if you can try and tolerate my mistakes.
Two of the most recent fatalities that spring to mind. Were in 109's. Piloted by IR Pilots who had many hours under their belts. You say that you wouldn't let a low houred pilot loose on one of your IFR twins or fly your precious customers.Surely it would be safer for your precious customers who are probably quite wealthy to have a low houred IR co-pilot to sit next to the captain.I know that sometimes the workload can be high and very demanding and any help from the person sat next to the captain would lighten his load. It may even save those precious customers lives.
I'm sure that there would be many inexperienced qualified pilots who love to be given the chance to gain experience from you and your high houred, highly skilled pilots. And for a lesser wage.
P.S There are probably pilots out there that can't spell or use spellcheck but are very good at flying and keep their passengers safe and happy.
Two of the most recent fatalities that spring to mind. Were in 109's. Piloted by IR Pilots who had many hours under their belts. You say that you wouldn't let a low houred pilot loose on one of your IFR twins or fly your precious customers.Surely it would be safer for your precious customers who are probably quite wealthy to have a low houred IR co-pilot to sit next to the captain.I know that sometimes the workload can be high and very demanding and any help from the person sat next to the captain would lighten his load. It may even save those precious customers lives.
I'm sure that there would be many inexperienced qualified pilots who love to be given the chance to gain experience from you and your high houred, highly skilled pilots. And for a lesser wage.
P.S There are probably pilots out there that can't spell or use spellcheck but are very good at flying and keep their passengers safe and happy.