What are the job prospects for new CPLs? (MERGED)

[Old and Horrified]

Nr Fairy:

I quite agree. I am taking about an AOC operation with appropriate insurance and pilot competency check procedures.

Any 200 hour CPL(H) should be able to cope with taking clients to the race course or doing pleasure flights at a county show without problem. Not too many hours, buts lots of valuable experience and keeps your license current while waiting for the (hopefully) upturn.

[The Nr Fairy]

Glad to see that. But even "reputable" AOC operations can bite - hence the caution I would exercise (with unfortunate hindsight) in making sure every job a young CPL went on is checked and authed by the CP, and written agreement before any work is done as to the insurance and employment status of the individual. If things go wrong the first people to walk away will be the people who asked the person concerned to do the job.

[Old and Horrified]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. What's the point of a CPL if he can't even be trusted to fly from one authorised landing field to another, and make sensible decisions about the weather? The last time I looked, there were not very many co-pilot vacancies out there so what else do you suggest?

I'm not sure where the comment "very little P1 time" comes from. Most 200 hour CPL pilots would probably have about half of that as P1 during the hours building phase.

I speak from experience having part funded my son on his CPL(H) course, and having sat with him on most of his hours building. Thoroughly enjoyable it was to!

[Pandalet]

If a CPL holder has only experienced training environment stuff, to the point where they "can count the number of off-airfield landings they have done on one hand", does becoming a baby instructor really help that much? You get some more training, specifically aimed at how infant pilots will try to kill you, and I bet your reaction times and awareness improve, but you're not really adding new experiences, right? You're still mostly flogging around the circuit and local area, only now you're (nervously) watching someone else do some of the flying.

Just sayin'...

[hands_on123]

Partly true, but being an instructor forces you to take decisions on the weather, how to teach a manouvre, etc, it gives you much more confidence at flying.

Sure, the first 200 hours of teaching are pretty nerve-wracking, but once you pass that you cease to be 'all over the controls' and constantly nervous, and you soon tire of the local area and are desparate to explore other areas.

I think being an instructor is a great 'grounding' for a flying career, you learn lots about flying and lots about the industry.

[MartinCh]

I am willing to bet most fresh CPL holders can count the number of off-airfield landings they have done on one hand.

True, it's often school's policy to 'mitigate' risks. I've done handful of tight off-airports/confines with my instructor or two recent months and I could have done much more. That's all in R22 as well, so often not great power margin at almost max gross. I guess it's even worse in the UK.

I'm like, Hey I want to do couple more autos or running landings/whatever for the checkride/LST, then instructor replying I'm fine on that, let's do some off-airports.. :-) he's also tired of staying on the field most of time..

[bigglesbutler]

Just in case its of use, Bristow are recruiting and you should go to:

Bristow

It doesn't say what fleet but it's ABZ based and you "need" a CPL with an IR.

Good luck

Si

[Suchyy]

Help and information needed

Hi everybody,

I'm writing here hoping that you can have some valuable information and who if not you will be even able to understand me.

A little background so that you all can understand my concerns properly.

So here I'm a student at a small Polish community college in God forsaken place. I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering with Helicopter Pilot Studies Program. You may ask who is paying for my Pilot Studies Program? Well, Polish Government is. I'm doing BEng and right now I'm on 2 year out of 4 I need to complete in order to get the BEng Diploma.

When I was going through recruitment phase, which taken place right after finishing my 1st year, I was given a choice between frozen ATPL(A) and CPL(H)/IR Pilot Studies Program. I've chosen CPL(H)/IR. But my problem is a little bit more complicated than that. Right now, due to some problems with money - I'm only a student so what can I know what is really happening - however, we were told that we wouldn't be given CPL(H)/IR but only CPL(H) with 135hrs.

Getting to the bottom of my problem. Given the situation I'm in I have only 2 choices. First is to continue my CPL(H) program and hope there will be someone who would like to employ helicopter pilot with so little experience or switch to ATPL(A) program and then worry about getting a job. What would you do in my situation? Is there even slightest possibility that somebody would actually hire somebody with only CPL(H) and 135hrs of experience?

My dream is to work as a pilot on oil/gas rigs. On one hand I know that everything is possible but on the other hand is it possible to get a job like that without IR? \

I must say that I can't afford to get an IR by myself. That is a reason why I'm studying in God forsaken place instead of being enrolled in best possible university in place like Warsaw or Cracow...

[carsickpuppy]

Suchyy,

If those are your only choices, I suggest the ATPL (A) route. I'm guessing there will be more jobs available to you than if you go CPL (H). Once you tire of fixed wing and make a bit of money, go for your Rotary.
What is the job outlook for you with ATPL (A)?
Perhaps a career counselor at your facility could help with placement?

Besides it will be much nicer flying into a decent city and airport than

in God forsaken place

where a lot of helicopters are based

[Suchyy]

casrsickpuppy,

what I meant was that my college isn't the best or the finest... It is not challenging for me at all. I'm just bored here. Well, there isn't any career counselor here and I really don't mind living in place like this. I know I'm young and you could felt like I'm moaning about the place. I complaining about the education in my college and strictly academic way, not pilot studies program which is quite good here.

You are suggesting ATPL(A)? Why? Easier to get a job or is there another reason?
Now you may fell like the only thing I'm trying to do is making money, lots of it, but it's not true. Flying is my passion. I'm asking about job prospects because I know how expensive is to keep your ratings valid and also I would like to finally settle down and have my own family. Money is not that important for me. But having the job itself is.

[MartinCh]

the 135hrs would be for heli course as 'integrated' I believe. Check FCL regs.

Well, you're moaning if you should get funded airplane or heli training?
Not many 'Westerners' who get their CPL(H) funded.

True, most jobs would be as instructor, for which you need another 100+ hours helicopter time, in Europe, but you'd have your theory done, 'free training', etc.

Go to UK or Ireland and save up rest of cash. Most easy to get jobs are already taken by, ehrm, Polish, though.

On the other hand, it's relatively easier to get low time job in Poland as Polish national, from what I've read in other section of pprune. Starting out in heli industry is a pain in many countries. Not just time, money, effort, but then being licensed without job.

[Suchyy]

MartinCh,

Thanks a lot for breaking it up for me. It was moaning a little bit about which one should I be stuck with, true. You are right I shouldn't be.

Another 100+ hrs? That's sounds like a lot. How expensive can it be in the UK? You are right that there can be some low time jobs available in Poland, I will look into that.

How would my job prospects look like if I complete IR rating in addition to my CPL(H)? Will it change a lot?

I'm sorry if you feel offended in anyway. I didn't mean it that way. I'm asking many questions because I think you guys are the best source of information I have.

[MartinCh]

well, just do more research. plenty stuff in the 'stickies' and other threads. use search.

European IR is not cheap, even single engine.
very limited jobs with just fresh CPL, honestly. It's due to insurance and fact that you don't have that much experience with few hundred hours.
Just look at the recent R44 crashes in Brazil. Totally avoidable. Anyone with 500hrs total heli in Brazil would go and fly to oil righs as copilot for pretty good money. Those flying piston in Brazil are either owners or low time charter chaps. I presume so.

Well, JAR/EASA FCL dictates 300TT heli to START FI rating. Some countries like Sweden, UK, Romania, Switzerland etc, adopted 250hrs as 'happy compromise' to make things easier. So it's not easy/cheap to get there after all the training if self funded. So go for it and keep saving. Try to get as much R44 time as possible, not just R22.

I don't know Polish job market, but you may want to check options as copilot on larget stuff, with whatever minimum training sponsored by company.
That's enough for now. You have to do your research.

[Suchyy]

Thanks for all information you provided.

It looks like it will be very long and bumpy road but in the long run it will bring me to my goals.

So now I going to make some research of my own.

Regards!

[carsickpuppy]

Suchyy,

I suggested ATPL (A) because it may provide you a job a bit quicker than CHPL and since most of us are not financially independent, that is the main goal..to provide for yourself and family.

If your government is paying for one or the other, why not Airplanes? Just due to the fact that there are more Airplanes than Helicopters in the world your job prospects statistically would be better, especially if no IR on your heli license. Once you've done a few/several years as fixed-wing pilot go for the Rotary license, at least you'll have your fixed-wing license to fall back on if the heli-industry hits rough times.

Look into the job market where you can work legally and determine which segment has more likelihood of employing you in that first job... i.e. check with the flight schools, because likely your first job will be as FI.

How about your nation's military? They may be willing to train you for flying their helicopters for a several year commitment.

I do not intend to steer you away from helicopters, by all means if that is what you want to do, go for it... just looking at it pragmatically, that's my two cents.

Good luck

[Pandalet]

I have no idea what the local prospects for helicopter pilots is in Poland (perhaps go talk to some local operators?), but if you want to fly offshore, you need an IR. A multi-engine IR costs around £35k - £40k (or more), depending on where you go and how jacked up you are. There are basically no jobs for 135-hour CPLs in the UK, and I don't believe most of the rest of Europe is much different, so you either need an instructors rating (which requires another 100 hours before you start) or an IR. The offshore companies are hiring 200-hour baby pilots, but only with IRs.

Ultimately, if you want to fly helicopters, then you should do the CPL(H). If you don't really care what you fly, so long as you get to fly, then go ATPL(A), as the initial job prospects _MAY_ be better. You're already doing much better than most in Western Europe, getting to CPL(H) level without spending any of your own money - most of us need to find £85k+ to get to CPL(H)/IR!

[Droopystop]

Suchyy,

If you want to go helicopter, go helicopter. But your BEng will be far more valuable to you. Focus on that, get a job in the oil industry as an engineer and after 5 or 6 years you will have a fall back career and enough money to get that IR.

[Thomas coupling]

Suchyy: You are a very very lucky young man. In 2 years you will walk away with a Beng AND a commercial helicopter licence That is something most young men dream of!
I concur with Droopystop, the Beng qualification will make your way in life by getting you a good job. It will then pay for you to stay current with your helo licence and also eventually pay for upgrading it to an IR. Without an IR your options are limited but NOT closed. When the time comes you can then decide to convert fully to aviation as a pilot or stay in engineering and fly part time.
I have a colleague who recently did his CPL(H) and then pursuaded BOND to take him on for an IR. They paid him a full salary, deducted the cost of the IR and he became an oil rig co-pilot in 2 years. He has never looked back.
You will already have your CPL(H) free!!!
There are other threads on this site that show the cheapest way to go for an IR (Denmark I think???), have a look round. Pprune will feed you enormous amounts of excellent information and experience - enjoy.

[Big Duke 6]

Any aspiring Off shore pilots !!

I have heard from different sources that one of the main heli companies in Aberdeen are only accepting first timers who have either 500+ TT Multi engine time and JAA IR , or canidates who have TRAINED at Bristow academy. Will the other operators follow suit , i suspect. Just spreading the word !!

[Bravo73]

How very perceptive of you, Big Duke 6. This page of the long running 'Rotary Jobs' thread explains why: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/353...y-jobs-53.html (The short answer is 'OGP').