MD Explorer

[jayteeto]

"The MD900 is a much better aircraft than the EC135 in all respects. Sadly customers are being discouraged by the spares situation."

Yawn, what have the romans ever done for us?? (watch Life of Brian for full explanation) All respects means ALL respects, so the spares situation is pretty important to a unit like ours with only one helicopter. 135 operators think that their heli is better than the MD900 series, so what you mean is: 'In my opinion' the 900 is better........

This argument has been done over and over, again and again. I like Eurocopter products with over 4000hrs on Gazelle/Puma/350/355/135. I have sampled the american products available and find them just as capable, but not as simple in design and operation. We generally get spares quite quickly, with the odd glitch. We got a MRGB in 2 days, and it wasn't cracked.........

[PANews]

'FINALLY!! Someone else agrees with me.'

Believe me Notar fan you never were alone...


But deciding that one lone journo was consistently saying nasty, unpalatable, things [that he thinks were regularly close to the truth] did not alter the situation did it?

Perhaps you should change tack and now claim that the whole situation was actually created by my news reports! I stopped parts deliveries, I emptied the bank I told the KLPD to cancel .... I made Eurocopter what they are ...... I can destroy aircraft companies .....

Now that degree of power would be SENSATIONAL!

If it were true.

Meanwhile I will report what I see. It is for you to accept or reject...

You do not believe everything you read in your daily paper do you? Surely helicopters are not bought on the strength of a Flight International test report or a free offer on a breakfast cereal packet .... are they?

Well may be they are.

[What Limits]

PANews, I read PA News regularly and I do not recall seeing anything good about the MD900. Please put me right. I also recall seeing many adverts for McAlpine Helicopters which I believe to be 49% owned by Eurocopter. Please put me right on this as well.

Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story". I do not dispute any of the facts of this story but as soon as some journo or politician starts spewing out statistics, I know (as a former student of statistics) that they are only used to support an agenda.

As a journo, does it hurt when you use the words "facts" and "accuracy" in the same paragraph?

BTW, helicopters are often purchased by people who believe what they read / see/ hear in papers / tv / pprune / cereal packets.

Nothing personal my friend, but I don't like journos.

[Head Turner]

I don't like jounos either, but they are a fact of life, but unlike many diseases there are no known cures so we have to live with this curse.

Back to the thread:- I also find the MD900 concept very good and a superb logical approach to helicopter flight operations in all respects except that the range is pretty poor.
I just hope that MD can get the funding to put it's self back up where it belongs amongst the top boys.

[Buitenzorg]

Having translated the article announcing the cancellation of the Dutch police order for Explorerers, I remember that while the delay in certification allowed the Dutch authorities to cancel without having to pay a cancellation fee, and indeed to demand a non-performance fine off MD Helicopters, the main reason stated as to why they didn't want to wait any longer was that on a visit to the MD factory, they'd observed work had all but halted, casting severe doubts on MD's ability to deliver the balance of the order (the other 7 ships) and most certainly on future support of the fleet. The impression I got from the article was that they would have waited a little longer for the certification if the future of MD had not appeared so insecure.

[ppheli]

Buitenzorg > yes, and particularly as MD is owned by a Dutch company. But MD _did_ sign a contract committing themselves to a greater MTOW than turned out to be feasible, even with a boom extension. If they ran out of money, then why would the bank (or funding source) forsake them if they had an order for 8 in the bag which could see them back on the road to recovery? It points to the MTOW being impossible to achieve

Where now for MD? Obvious severe financial pressure, and the only likely buyers of the company will be interested in the 500E/530F line for the Little Bird contract. Note the NOTARs though, sales oif which have not exactly been spectacular, with none of the 520N, 600N or Explorer lines yet delivering 100 airframes to customers. Put that alongside their competitors sales figures and you have a company in serious decline.

So, it's no surprise that there are stories like
- Sussex Police (UK) down for 5 weeks (14 months back - 2nd Dec 03 to 6th Jan 04) awaiting spares (not the Tactical Radio thing)
- Suffolk County PD (New York State, US) - grounded both aircraft late 2004 due to spares difficulties, and County have approved money to buy something different.
- a US EMS program have paid $1M+ deposit and aircraft stuck on the line - they fear they will never see their money or aircraft. Same program has another Explorer leased from Japan in mothballs due to lack of spares
- In Nov-04. Kaman announced a $21M write-off of investments in contracts with MD
- the MD Sales/Marketing Director (one time Air Hanson ops department) now on "garden leave"

The everyday situation now is spares availability. This seems to have been caused by financial difficulties, which in turn must have had something to do with lack of sales. For products of roughly similar cost (comparing the EC135 which I believe is slightly cheaper, and the 109E at slightly more), the implication has got to be that the product is less sale-able than its competitors.

Note, I am not saying it is less ABLE, just less SALE-ABLE. Is it possible for the NOTAR products of MD to exit this spiral?

MD600 Driver, what's your take on this?

NOTAR Fan, have you changed your defiinition of "fan" from supporter (like soccer) to air-pump yet, or were you always the latter?

[Thomas coupling]

What Limits:

Let's see, so far we have comments like:

Poor logistics.
Cancelling customers.
MD of MD on gardening leave?
Poor endurance.
No future proof weight increases.
Cracked MGB's
Poor heading hold out of wind.
Poor crew ergonomics.
Can only fly 1 x patient.

All the above taken from previous posts every time someone talks about MD900's.

I suspect your casual comment: better in ALL respects...just flew out of the window

Ask yourself this question:

If you knew then, what you know now, would you go out and buy another 902?
{Cambridge beign the exception ]
QED

[PANews]

I guess I am tiring of this already...

OK What Limits...

Thanks for reading PA News regularly you are not alone. And I guess your failure to see anything good within its pages about the MD900 is not because it does not exist, more that it is pretty well overwhelmed. Perhaps you can recall when there was good news about MD and the Explorer? I cannot say I can since the KLPD and Cambridge orders. Its sad but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good barney!

And I guess this is what its all about. Colin Whicher [where is he these days?] once said to me that no one else [in the journo industry] is interested in what I wrote and in particular what I wrote about the Explorer.

So five years on.... whats changed? Now everyone is writing about it... perhaps the real journos have been asleep .... along with a few others I guess. If what I wrote was crap why are we here now talking about the danger of the demise of MD and excusing the problem by blaming it on a passing journo?

Bit late waking up now!

You may recall seeing many adverts for McAlpine Helicopters but do you remember the ones for MD? PAS? PWC? FSI? BMS? An advert is an advert and provides NO special favours. I guess that is why you will not find an MD, PWC or Bell advert now!

And I think you are VERY WRONG in your memory again about your percentages on having Macs owned 49% by Eurocopter. It is a much lower figure. Which makes the earlier assertion that 'Eurocopter' advertise with PAN absolute rubbish. Macs used to advertise in PAN. FSI used to advertise in PAN. Things move on.

Journo rule #1 "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story".

In which case its down to you to point out the errors. I was brought up as a cop over 30 years so equally 'hated' journos, now I changed hats through choice the old habit of 'telling the truth, the whole truth....' is pretty difficult to duck. But there are precious few facts flowing from you. Insinuation is not truth.

I can recall the absolute furore from the 'Explorer camp' when I reported the fact that some EC135 units had released figures that they were experiencing availability of 98%. Not my numbers. They were provided by the units concerned. That was a time when rumour suggested that some Explorer units were returning 74%. Around the time when Sussex were twiddling their thumbs for a month. But although I asked no-one replied to a direct question what the figure was.

Again around the same time there was a round robin E-mail making all sorts of accusations about my reporting of the unpalatable - that only died away when I suggested I had perhaps better report the public domain story about Dorset going cap-in-hand to ask the Police Authority for another Ł120,000 to tide them over after a shortfall in the unexpected spares fund....

At times it seems that there have been just too many bad stories to use. So [aside from on the Dorset Police web site] that stayed off the public agenda.

MD returned a 1% market share last year, so what you are saying is that they are far more important than Eurocopter - the choice of a significant WORLD majority - and that I should report only the bad bits about Eurocopter and the good bits about MD? Oh and maybe a bit about fixed wing to keep me busy?

EC has broad shoulders. There have been digs about their products, but not a murmur.

So PAN should shrink from 28 pages to just 5?

You should be a journo! Have you no shame!

'BTW, helicopters are often purchased by people who believe what they read / see/ hear in papers / tv / pprune / cereal packets.'

More fool them then. Perhaps they should spend more time in their own product research and believe less in the saleman. You know what they say about Estate Agents, car salesmen and the like.... We have choices, and if we make an errors we ought to have broad enough shoulders to carry them.


Only an opinion of course!

Phew!

PS. While I was writing this I had a very supportive phone call .... it seems not everyone in Explorer land has their head in the sand..... whats out is out ......... and about time too?

PPS. The South Yorkshire Explorer was not flying last night. That makes a month. Is that good for public safety? Enough is enough.

[Thomas coupling]

PANews: well said, that man.
The proof of the pudding's in the reading.

The 902 is a very capable aircraft - of that there is no doubt.

The problem is that there are MORE capable aircraft out there with the additional back-up to support their product.

Which is more than anyone can say about the MD902.

Watch what happens when current police a/c are due for replacement, ask ANY police operator what products they are looking at to replace their existing one?

It must be very difficult fighting a constant rear guard action with your bosses when you know you've bought a bentley but can't drive it because there are no spare parts?????

Wake up and smell the coffee what limits.

[Phoenix Rising]

What Limits and Head Turner:

Just because you dont like journos would appreciate you not putting us all in the same catergory.

For your info I have spent the last six years publishing my civil helo trade mag and have ALWAYS given a fair and accurate report in each of the stories we have published. Classic example we did a feature on the piss poor customer service that Turbomeca had, AND they were an advertiser in the magazine.

I have, and always will, promote the positive sides of this industry as it needs all the positive PR it can get, BUT being classed in the same catergory as your local Daily Mirror journo is something I do take offence to.

Just my two cents worth.

Ned

[jayteeto]

Further to my last post, we are suffering servicability problems at the moment with our 2600hr EC135. This includes a MRGB and an engine, plus various autopilot and camera problems in the last 2 months. This happens in the real world and I am sure MD products are just as reliable as ours. The difference is that we got a gearbox in 2 days, an engine the same day, actuator in one day. We are grumbling because a cockpit display is taking a whole 3 days due to a software fill being required!! Spares and maintainance back-up cannot be brushed over by stating your product is better. Imagine a car manufacturer doing that, Clarkson would screen a one hour special!! The coffee smells lovely here.......

[Head Turner]

'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story' as quoted above and before.
Therefore the fact that one journo is different to another should be discarded to fuel the flames of discussion.
So what's the truth in the rumour that the Brazillian airplane maker is looking at MD.

[metric]

MD902 logistics

Little seen on this subject is entirely objective but even the most enthusiastic MD902 operators in the UK have to admit that there have been major issues on the supply of key spares including main rotor gearboxes.

The current MDHI company is nothing to do with Boeing or MD and has little to fall-back on when commercial and technical issues arise. I suspect that had MD (the real MD) or latterly Boeing retained control of the programme, things might have been different and the logistic and developmental issues of the MD902 may have been squared away...but this is not what has happened. One wonders why Boeing sold the company if the risk perception of the product was anything other than as a low reward/high cost civil helicopter programme.

The Dutch Police contract is difficult for both the Dutch Police and for MDHI. The police made a call and as it turns out made the wrong one (we all do that from time to time)...on the basis that the MD902 has not been able to deliver what was promised. MDHI made valiant technical and commercial efforts to deliver but ultimately the MD902 could not deliver. I might take a view that nothing was going to deliver what was demanded of the MD902 with the Dutch role equipment in the sub 3000 kg category. Gravity does not change and the laws of aerodynamics have been soundly tested.

So I would say, my opinion of course, Bravo for trying MDHI, bad-luck Dutch Police - do not always believe what salesman promise even if that is what you want to hear, and good news for UK based MD902 operators who may see some improvement in support now attention at MDHI is on other things.

Incidently, if you think objectivity is short in this, I also take the view that threatening to sue, or indeed sueing your potential customers when you loose a competition is not the wisest thing to do. If the customer eventually needs you, in these circumstances it is difficult for them to say 'hi' a year or two later on. Mnaufacturers need to learn that customers are also in the market for the long-haul and have memories of how they are treated.

Just some thoughts.

[quichemech]

Valid point, but did not most of the lack of back up start with boeing who did no development of what is basically not a bad product. The machine has improved dramatically over the last few years. The Dutch Police contract has probably caused more problems than it has solved with the diversion of resources that could have been used else where, just my opinion of course, but as said earlier, the amount of equipement they expected to hang off the machine was incredable. The ideal aircraft was something in the 365B3/76C+ class if not a 332

[Hilife]

MD Explorers - Is there a downtime problem?

The MD902 competes well in the ALE/EMS market and for good reason. But uncertainty over the future of MDHI must surely be the biggest cause of poor sales over the last few years and the cancellation of eight 902’s by KLPD earlier this month can only add to their cash flow problems.

Money alone may not save them and in the absence of any success in the ARH/LUH competitions, the acquisition of MDHI by a well respected and well funded helicopter manufacturer may be the only viable future.

Just a thought…..

[PANews]

Potentially the biggest worry faced by MDHI is the uncertainty of the Boeing money.

Although lauded as the answer to most of their problems the little I have noted on the military programme [Little Bird] suggests at least the danger of Boeing ceasing payment/support as soon as the result of the competition being announced if that result finds against the Little Bird. I know that these programme decisions keep slipping but the last decision date I am aware of was June 2005, just around the corner. Two months.

In all cases I suspect that wherever the final financial solution comes from [Little Bird/China/Brazil etc] it will be a year before any end user relief is visible [in terms of spares freely available]. And then of course there is the little matter of catching up with all that difficult to fund product development.

We are three months on from each of the rescue plans that failed to appear on cue ... the Sikorsky, Bell, China options .... and time is pressing. Kaman needs to be sweetened and parts production [again a year] restarted to get Explorer back on line.

Even the 'acquisition of MDHI by a well respected and well funded helicopter manufacturer' is likely to face a year in the relative doldrums. In a way it is potentially fortunate that delivery lead times in the industry are of a similar order [12 months+].

In the meanwhile operators are having to make decisions that may lead to a section of the current fleet [under 100] being parted out to support the rest. Recent accidents may be having a small positive effect on supply and demand on the type. Such pressures will inevitable lead to some operators failing to even consider operating the Explorer in future if only on the grounds that an existing fleet may not be able to grow using a common type.

[Phoenix Rising]

It wont matter if a company sinks a trillon dollars into MD, as long as the same management is there it wont make any difference.

I heard throught the grapevine that one of the major reasons the Sikorsky deal fell over was because the owner in Holland wanted Schaken there no matter what and that was part of the deal. Right or wrong thats the rumour.

PR

[Thomas coupling]

IF the company goes to the wall, and there are no takers..what happens to the existing users?
Say another year for the company to fold, a year after that for operators to grind to a halt without spares.
Where will the Home Office find the money to bail them out. Could a worthy competitor cope with demand for trickle feeding 11 operators (in the Uk alone) with replacement aircraft

Very brave decision by Cambridge, to buy a new 902 NOW

[mctavish]

Maybe Cambs know something that the rest of us don't - if not then it was a 'brave' decision

[quichemech]

The spares situation on the whole is improving, AOG spares have been arriving, granted not in a 24/48 hour period but they have been arriving none the less, with regard to MRGBs, the boxes are being upgraded by Kawazaki, not minor mods, quite major ones, and the boxes are doing a lot better with life limits going up towards what they should be.

South yorks may not have flown for the last month but you may find that is due to it having been on annual and periodic inspections, checks that will keep it down for at least 3 weeks. They are being provided with spares as soon as reasonably possible by both MDHI and PAS.

The uncertain future is not good but constant comment by people who have their own adgenda doesn't help those of us who rely on the 902 to pay the bills.