MD Explorer
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ZZZzzzzzzz
Sorry PAN - must have dozed off reading your last post, and sorry also for not knowing the abbreviated names of all the different Police publications you get your "quotes" from. You see not being a Met. Police Bobby I had no idea that "The Job" was their magazine - I thought it was something to do with "The Job" 
I'll refrain from passing comment about EC135 Arris Pot or Skid Mounting Rubber reliability as this post is about 902 spares
I'll refrain from passing comment about EC135 Arris Pot or Skid Mounting Rubber reliability as this post is about 902 spares
quichemech,
the cabins are in fact different between BK117C2 (EC145), and BK117C1/B/A series machines. Cabin has been stretched quite a bit, enough for another row of seats, and is a bit wider too. A company I used to work for takes the maintenance step off of the BK and puts in an extra window for the pax in the very back row (8 pax) for tourist work.
noooby
the cabins are in fact different between BK117C2 (EC145), and BK117C1/B/A series machines. Cabin has been stretched quite a bit, enough for another row of seats, and is a bit wider too. A company I used to work for takes the maintenance step off of the BK and puts in an extra window for the pax in the very back row (8 pax) for tourist work.
noooby
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Coconutty, read the thread again..... Downtime problem?? When the u/c rubbers or a vibro pot go u/s, they get fixed pretty quick. If 902 gearboxes or whatever go u/s it is a long wait. That is what a downtime problem is. Repeating myself again (and again), I know it is a brilliant machine, that has never been in question, but it is no good to anyone sat in a hangar.....
Flying Cop, why cant you throw it around like a squirrel?? and you want me to name an aircraft that hasn't had these problems???? eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, can you name an aircraft that HAS had these problems you mean?
Flying Cop, why cant you throw it around like a squirrel?? and you want me to name an aircraft that hasn't had these problems???? eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, can you name an aircraft that HAS had these problems you mean?
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NOTAR FAN - I have no association with PAN who I thnk I can work out who he is. I have never spoken to the guy and have no desire to either, not even by using a mirrror when shaving in the morning. My last post is based on fact. I am interested in the unfortanate operators of a good aircraft for its role, when its flying. The thread is about 902 downtime. If PAN and others want to bash each other off the thread, then count me out.
So to clarify and to keep things on the thread - my post on the 29th March using a 902 user as an example about 902 downtime - re West Mids 902 MRGB having to be replaced was fact. It was off line for some time. My post yesterday 11th April - I was told it came back on line last weekend. I was told it lasted about 3-4 days before its started showing metal again. It was certainly yesterday back at PAS. The signs were not looking good again and they expect to off line for some time. Lets hope not.
NOTAR FAN - if you think I am talking whatever, get the phonebook out, ring PAS and find out. Its that easy. Even I can do it.
So to clarify and to keep things on the thread - my post on the 29th March using a 902 user as an example about 902 downtime - re West Mids 902 MRGB having to be replaced was fact. It was off line for some time. My post yesterday 11th April - I was told it came back on line last weekend. I was told it lasted about 3-4 days before its started showing metal again. It was certainly yesterday back at PAS. The signs were not looking good again and they expect to off line for some time. Lets hope not.
NOTAR FAN - if you think I am talking whatever, get the phonebook out, ring PAS and find out. Its that easy. Even I can do it.
Ah, you carried on without me...
Well, on balance, it looks like there isn't a clear story relating to pin trouble.... certainly no SB's yet... and that surprisingly enough is all I dared to ask.... so I guess I can leave you to it for a few days and when you have pulled each other to pieces a little bit more .... I can decide whether I need to follow up with a call to PAS or West Mids. [i.e. whether I care]. Run of the mill Explorer downtime is no longer news to any of us I am sorry to say.
I would have thought that anything serious to do with pins would have surfaced by now, so we are just back to those 'usual' servicability problems.
Such is hardly news when Cessna have just flown a new bizjet... the AB139 has apparently been dropped from Deepwater ... and a bank has filed a lawsuit against Franklin County Sheriff.... meanwhile I have to balance two press releases sent in by two air ambulances in the UK [written by others of course] that claim they are the 'busiest in Britain' ... oh woe .... Now which one is telling the truth ... oh woe... I guess I may edit both claims out....
I suppose I could ask on Pprune....
Whaaat!
In truth this is all about nothing. PAN is, and always has been mainly about taking extracts of news from around the world [they call them press releases and news reports] and putting them together in one place. In some instances there is editing like when FLIR systems and Wescam both say their camera is the best in the World [that's the customers call] and some explanatory text .... interpreting media speak .... like adding information that The Met had not ordered their EC145s yet - contrary to what The Job article was suggesting ... [and I still believe they havn't]
So ... if you don't like the style don't read it ... but please don't expect me to bleed for you... those days were left behind on the streets of Kings Cross some 39 years ago......
Well, on balance, it looks like there isn't a clear story relating to pin trouble.... certainly no SB's yet... and that surprisingly enough is all I dared to ask.... so I guess I can leave you to it for a few days and when you have pulled each other to pieces a little bit more .... I can decide whether I need to follow up with a call to PAS or West Mids. [i.e. whether I care]. Run of the mill Explorer downtime is no longer news to any of us I am sorry to say.
I would have thought that anything serious to do with pins would have surfaced by now, so we are just back to those 'usual' servicability problems.
Such is hardly news when Cessna have just flown a new bizjet... the AB139 has apparently been dropped from Deepwater ... and a bank has filed a lawsuit against Franklin County Sheriff.... meanwhile I have to balance two press releases sent in by two air ambulances in the UK [written by others of course] that claim they are the 'busiest in Britain' ... oh woe .... Now which one is telling the truth ... oh woe... I guess I may edit both claims out....
I suppose I could ask on Pprune....
Whaaat!
In truth this is all about nothing. PAN is, and always has been mainly about taking extracts of news from around the world [they call them press releases and news reports] and putting them together in one place. In some instances there is editing like when FLIR systems and Wescam both say their camera is the best in the World [that's the customers call] and some explanatory text .... interpreting media speak .... like adding information that The Met had not ordered their EC145s yet - contrary to what The Job article was suggesting ... [and I still believe they havn't]
So ... if you don't like the style don't read it ... but please don't expect me to bleed for you... those days were left behind on the streets of Kings Cross some 39 years ago......
Last edited by PANews; 12th Apr 2005 at 18:48.
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Sincerest apologies EjectEject, the information in your last post was correct. It seems my source was a little behind the curve.
Interesting situation, as its the only aircraft that has had the upgraded transmission removed for chips.
Once again, my apologies for my last post.
Interesting situation, as its the only aircraft that has had the upgraded transmission removed for chips.
Once again, my apologies for my last post.
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Here's a question ....
... getting back on track, what does everyone think might happen if all the rumours / scaremongering about MDHI came true and they actually went "bust" - which I sincerely hope they do not - ( it would be great to hear some reassurances from them ) but what might happen with the spares situation ?
As I see it the parts suppliers, e.g. Kawasaki and no doubt others, are probably already asking for payment for parts up front.
Surely these companies will want to continue to sell their parts and make a profit and there is obviously a market for them !
Could a situation develop where parts are supplied more directly, instead of via MDHI and then onto PAS ( or whoever is the local maintenance company ) before reaching the "end user" -
MDHI would be out of the loop and the parts supplied directly to the local maintenance guys ?
If this happened would the parts actually become cheaper ? - The more companies in the supply chain the more will be added to final price ?
Thinking of Kawasaki gearboxes - the topic of the moment, as has been rightly pointed out, the failure of one ( or more ) of these is not MDHI's fault, and Kawasaki will be providing replacements ( at their cost if under warranty, not at MDHI's cost ), and this probably applies to a lot of the other bits and bobs.
This of course does not mean that all 902 users have no need for MDHI to continue in business - they are obviously the experts in the design / modifications / development etc etc, I was just wondering with regards to spare parts supply - "What if......?" -
Over to you
As I see it the parts suppliers, e.g. Kawasaki and no doubt others, are probably already asking for payment for parts up front.
Surely these companies will want to continue to sell their parts and make a profit and there is obviously a market for them !
Could a situation develop where parts are supplied more directly, instead of via MDHI and then onto PAS ( or whoever is the local maintenance company ) before reaching the "end user" -
MDHI would be out of the loop and the parts supplied directly to the local maintenance guys ?
If this happened would the parts actually become cheaper ? - The more companies in the supply chain the more will be added to final price ?
Thinking of Kawasaki gearboxes - the topic of the moment, as has been rightly pointed out, the failure of one ( or more ) of these is not MDHI's fault, and Kawasaki will be providing replacements ( at their cost if under warranty, not at MDHI's cost ), and this probably applies to a lot of the other bits and bobs.
This of course does not mean that all 902 users have no need for MDHI to continue in business - they are obviously the experts in the design / modifications / development etc etc, I was just wondering with regards to spare parts supply - "What if......?" -
Over to you
Last edited by Coconutty; 14th Apr 2005 at 09:59.
Dare I?
Ahhh what the heck.
Clearly I am not 'in' but from my sources it was my understanding that as the design authority all parts have to pass through MDHI ... however .... it was also my understanding that a significant number [perhaps all] of parts do [or can do] already travel direct to the customer in a real World scenario.
As far as future spares goes - if the worst should happen - I would not expect the situation to change apreciably. I have been unable to identify any specific items that are made by MDHI at Mesa [that does not mean there are none]. On the face of it the modern MD plant is a pure assembly plant [with a major spares holding of Kaman produced parts].
So if I am correct [wait for the howls!] it would seem that as long as the design authority paperwork can be finalised there is no obvious danger to current operators of 'running out of spares' - after an initial hiatus the system could actually be better for those operators not expecting to call upon Warranty parts.
It might actually be a straight commercial deal unhindered by any debt issues.
Ahhh what the heck.
Clearly I am not 'in' but from my sources it was my understanding that as the design authority all parts have to pass through MDHI ... however .... it was also my understanding that a significant number [perhaps all] of parts do [or can do] already travel direct to the customer in a real World scenario.
As far as future spares goes - if the worst should happen - I would not expect the situation to change apreciably. I have been unable to identify any specific items that are made by MDHI at Mesa [that does not mean there are none]. On the face of it the modern MD plant is a pure assembly plant [with a major spares holding of Kaman produced parts].
So if I am correct [wait for the howls!] it would seem that as long as the design authority paperwork can be finalised there is no obvious danger to current operators of 'running out of spares' - after an initial hiatus the system could actually be better for those operators not expecting to call upon Warranty parts.
It might actually be a straight commercial deal unhindered by any debt issues.
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A fascinating thread, and some worthy contributions from all participants.....
And now some obvious honesty.
1.Its a fantastic aircraft when it is online.
2. Like any aircraft...its as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike when its broke.
3. MD helicopters are woefully inadequate in spares back-up.
Who, in their right mind would buy one from this useless american company? Let alone buy another?
I agree with Volrider. Its the Rover of the Helicopter world.
Let it R.I.P
And now some obvious honesty.
1.Its a fantastic aircraft when it is online.
2. Like any aircraft...its as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike when its broke.
3. MD helicopters are woefully inadequate in spares back-up.
Who, in their right mind would buy one from this useless american company? Let alone buy another?
I agree with Volrider. Its the Rover of the Helicopter world.
Let it R.I.P
Last edited by huntnhound; 13th Apr 2005 at 19:22.
Now who in their right mind, persuaded Cambs to buy a 902 in this climate???????
Unless of course, it was the bean counters again.
Some forces never, ever learn do they. They have a golden opportunity to watch everything going on around them, right down to their immediate neighbours (with different a/c) and they think to themselves:
"we know better"
Well you lot over there in the flatlands......hope you've got your reasons in writing ready for the C.C...you're going to need them
Unless of course, it was the bean counters again.
Some forces never, ever learn do they. They have a golden opportunity to watch everything going on around them, right down to their immediate neighbours (with different a/c) and they think to themselves:
"we know better"
Well you lot over there in the flatlands......hope you've got your reasons in writing ready for the C.C...you're going to need them
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TC - I refer the Honorable Member to the comments made on 28th March - a result of your earlier opinions on why some forces make decisions that appear nonsensical to the community at large.
I wonder if the remaining bean-counters at Cambs are watching this thread??
P.S. Again TC, concur with your "personal prejudice" comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a recent decision (as yet un-delivered & already delayed) now that a "person" has moved on!
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PAnews:
Lets igonre MD specifically for a minute.
If a company's assets are far lower in value than the liabilities, nothing can improve significantly until that situation is rectified. In America, we have a bankruptcy code which in essence gives unsecured creditors very little power. So if you believe a company has assets that have value, by running the company through a bankruptcy, you can peel out those assets either through a reorganization or through a 363 sale. Once those assets are unencumbered by the previous liens, those assets can be utilized for the benefit of the new owner. Now remeber an asset includes not only physical assets but contracts and rights of which you can chose which ones to keep and which ones to disavow. Now the good news is that those assets which are valuable will be picked up, but the bad news may be that those which are deemed not that valuable would be left.
So, one could argue that the "worst" is the only way and the quickest way that a situation such as MD can be resolved.
Lets igonre MD specifically for a minute.
If a company's assets are far lower in value than the liabilities, nothing can improve significantly until that situation is rectified. In America, we have a bankruptcy code which in essence gives unsecured creditors very little power. So if you believe a company has assets that have value, by running the company through a bankruptcy, you can peel out those assets either through a reorganization or through a 363 sale. Once those assets are unencumbered by the previous liens, those assets can be utilized for the benefit of the new owner. Now remeber an asset includes not only physical assets but contracts and rights of which you can chose which ones to keep and which ones to disavow. Now the good news is that those assets which are valuable will be picked up, but the bad news may be that those which are deemed not that valuable would be left.
So, one could argue that the "worst" is the only way and the quickest way that a situation such as MD can be resolved.
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Having had the pleasure of riding round in a 902 for the last 4 years I can say that has been enjoyable. Yes like all A/C it has needed spares but we have still clocked up nearly 4900 hours. Our engineers keep ontop of the machine and think ahead so we do not have too many periods of down time.
Having been flying for over 30 years spares for all makes of A/C have from time to time caused downtime. But I would never call the 902 a hangar queen. The 135 has had problem even recently with water in the blades so what the problem is sorted and we all keep on flying.
Having been flying for over 30 years spares for all makes of A/C have from time to time caused downtime. But I would never call the 902 a hangar queen. The 135 has had problem even recently with water in the blades so what the problem is sorted and we all keep on flying.
Whats the UK police 902 reliability record at, then?
The 902 User Gp should provide that.
For the record, the EC135 stats from 15 forces show:
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.
The 902 User Gp should provide that.
For the record, the EC135 stats from 15 forces show:
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.
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If the last hour is anything to go by, we have 100% 
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There is a recent police task where not one explorer in the North was on line and they had to bring in a 135 from the other side of the country.
South Yorks were off line waiting a part for nearly five weeks, no other reason.
Everyone gets defensive, but the reality is that the Explorer does not have the support, takes at least twice as long for servicing, is an operational risk - and is the worst possible operating environment for the rear police observer.
Other than that, it's fine.
South Yorks were off line waiting a part for nearly five weeks, no other reason.
Everyone gets defensive, but the reality is that the Explorer does not have the support, takes at least twice as long for servicing, is an operational risk - and is the worst possible operating environment for the rear police observer.
Other than that, it's fine.
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Ahhh Statistics
We all know what they say about statistics ... here's another one :
( Depending on the day of the week and the Police force in question )
Approximately / rough average 25% of EVERY day, AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist
( Depending on the day of the week and the Police force in question )
Approximately / rough average 25% of EVERY day, AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
and is the worst possible operating environment for the rear police observer.
Chief Inspector Manning pictured (2nd from right)
while working with the pioneering police helicopter unit.
Apparently the lattice work used to really cut into your knees.
