MD Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Nail the Dream, interesting comment. Where does your stats come from? My maths are poor so can you just confirm how you are quoting this, as it is ambiguous. Are you saying 7 ac are u/s whilst the 902 isn't? or that 25% of the time, 1 of 7 EC135s are u/s? Or does unavailable mean in for servicing?
In other words 1 day in every 4, 1 in 7 ac is not available. Which means each ac is down for 1 day in 28. Seeing as we fly 100 hours a month, ie 2x50hr services at 1/2 day each. I make that we NEVER go u/s.
If servicing is not included, that still means approx one day a month, which is 96% servicable. I'll take that thanks!! If my maths are wrong, please accept my apology for being a w@nker!!
In other words 1 day in every 4, 1 in 7 ac is not available. Which means each ac is down for 1 day in 28. Seeing as we fly 100 hours a month, ie 2x50hr services at 1/2 day each. I make that we NEVER go u/s.
If servicing is not included, that still means approx one day a month, which is 96% servicable. I'll take that thanks!! If my maths are wrong, please accept my apology for being a w@nker!!
Tightgit
Jayteetoo
My hunch is that you are barking up the wrong tree...
I suspect that Nails point is about units that work 24 hours.
(Yours of course being one of them)
although that is not the point of this thread.
But you probably knew that anyway...
Now, where's gran, she needs another egg sucking lesson
My hunch is that you are barking up the wrong tree...
I suspect that Nails point is about units that work 24 hours.
(Yours of course being one of them)
although that is not the point of this thread.
But you probably knew that anyway...
Now, where's gran, she needs another egg sucking lesson
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Of course, it was obvious wasn't it? Statistics only tell us what you want them to. 
What use is an 'S' aircraft if it is in the hangar, lets say for 5 hours of a day. (3am-8am for example ). I must add that this is a BEST CASE as some units are in the hangar for more than an average 5hrs a day during a week.
In a normal month, with 100% servicability, 150 flying hours are lost in this 'best case'.
On these figures, losing 5hrs a day in the hangar, even with 100% 'servicability' the aircraft is at 79.2% availability.
A bit less than previous figures;
which perhaps TC would like to adjust! 
What use is an 'S' aircraft if it is in the hangar, lets say for 5 hours of a day. (3am-8am for example ). I must add that this is a BEST CASE as some units are in the hangar for more than an average 5hrs a day during a week.
In a normal month, with 100% servicability, 150 flying hours are lost in this 'best case'.
On these figures, losing 5hrs a day in the hangar, even with 100% 'servicability' the aircraft is at 79.2% availability.
A bit less than previous figures;
For the record, the EC135 stats from 15 forces show:
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.
worst: 89%
best:98%
This includes unscheduled downtime.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 16th Apr 2005 at 15:44.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Jayteeto,
Point is that stats can be produced to show just about anything :
7 seperate Police forces who all "use" 135's does not necessarily mean 7 aircraft ( consortiums ).
The ASU's for these 7 forces as handysnaks has hinted at, don't work 24 hrs a day, finishing around 2.30 - 3.00 am and not back on until 8.00 - 8.30 makes 6 hours ( 25% of a day ) unavailable. ( "Ball park" figures taking into account differing weekend working etc ).
One 902 based in the same region DOES provide 24 hr cover so is MORE OFTEN than not available to provide support to those other forces. ( Or at least while it remains servicable for at least 50% of the time
)
NOTHING to do with spares or reliability, just a talking point about "Stats" which don't always reveal the true picture.
Nothing wrong with your maths either - Apology not needed
Point is that stats can be produced to show just about anything :
7 seperate Police forces who all "use" 135's does not necessarily mean 7 aircraft ( consortiums ).
The ASU's for these 7 forces as handysnaks has hinted at, don't work 24 hrs a day, finishing around 2.30 - 3.00 am and not back on until 8.00 - 8.30 makes 6 hours ( 25% of a day ) unavailable. ( "Ball park" figures taking into account differing weekend working etc ).
One 902 based in the same region DOES provide 24 hr cover so is MORE OFTEN than not available to provide support to those other forces. ( Or at least while it remains servicable for at least 50% of the time
)NOTHING to do with spares or reliability, just a talking point about "Stats" which don't always reveal the true picture.
Nothing wrong with your maths either - Apology not needed
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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Ok, ta!! But I think it is going off thread by saying the units are closed. Downtime in this instance is length of scheduled and unscheduled maintenance, ie aircraft servicability. If the engineers were working on the helis during 'closed' times, then it is fair game to call it downtime.
A question, we do the majority of our flying in the early hours and very little during the day. If we had a 6 hour window, I am sure it would be from 6am to midday. Why do units close at 3.00am? Is there different peak demand hours around the country?
A question, we do the majority of our flying in the early hours and very little during the day. If we had a 6 hour window, I am sure it would be from 6am to midday. Why do units close at 3.00am? Is there different peak demand hours around the country?
There are no limits
Join Date: May 2002
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I think its more to do with FTL than peak demand. How this may change with the transition to EASA will be quite interesting. Although it may be the case that police ops are not regulated by EASA, FTL may be. We can only wait and see.
Nail the dream: You talk bollocks. Thats taking stats to the limit! Why not say that the GMP Islander can therefore cover every force in the country when that unit is not operationally on line???
Or any 24hr EC135 Unit can offer its services to all those 'Northern' forces (northskycop was on about) while they are 'unavailable'.
Silsoesid: To clarify:
I co-ordinate the stats on behalf of ALL the EC135 UK police units. The actual data is kept with the NE Unit as you may or may not be aware.
There are 2 sets of stats:
Availability to the police force they serve, including downtime due to sickness/maintenance/weather, etc.
Availability to the force based purely on serviceability of the helicopter (due to maintenance issues (scheduled and unscheduled).
I was reporting the latter.
The red herring Nail the dream was on about covers variables which are totally outside the control of any Unit (10,20,224hr shifts) and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the thread.
The really juicy bit in all this (be it 902/109/355/135) is:
What are the availability stats for scheduled and UNSCHEDULED maintenance. Scheduled downtime is (a) projected and (b) minimal.
My previous qoute encapsulated this.
Northskycop raised interesting issues - from the horses mouth too?
Or any 24hr EC135 Unit can offer its services to all those 'Northern' forces (northskycop was on about) while they are 'unavailable'.
Silsoesid: To clarify:
I co-ordinate the stats on behalf of ALL the EC135 UK police units. The actual data is kept with the NE Unit as you may or may not be aware.
There are 2 sets of stats:
Availability to the police force they serve, including downtime due to sickness/maintenance/weather, etc.
Availability to the force based purely on serviceability of the helicopter (due to maintenance issues (scheduled and unscheduled).
I was reporting the latter.
The red herring Nail the dream was on about covers variables which are totally outside the control of any Unit (10,20,224hr shifts) and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the thread.
The really juicy bit in all this (be it 902/109/355/135) is:
What are the availability stats for scheduled and UNSCHEDULED maintenance. Scheduled downtime is (a) projected and (b) minimal.
My previous qoute encapsulated this.
Northskycop raised interesting issues - from the horses mouth too?
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TC,
Maybe I should have put a bigger devil picture before that post !
I see you have managed to pick up the gist of what the message was saying, and for translating quite eloquently thank you :
"Stats = Bollocks"
Maybe I should have put a bigger devil picture before that post !
I see you have managed to pick up the gist of what the message was saying, and for translating quite eloquently thank you :
"Stats = Bollocks"
AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist
_________________________________
Its interesting that the manufacturers never appear to defend themselves to countless attacks and allegations.
_________________________________
Not so.
They are here and have posted more than once in defence of the product.
As it is a 'Pprune-sin' to out the posters I can say no more.
Its interesting that the manufacturers never appear to defend themselves to countless attacks and allegations.
_________________________________
Not so.
They are here and have posted more than once in defence of the product.
As it is a 'Pprune-sin' to out the posters I can say no more.
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Oh good I`m glad our American cousins are stayingin touch with current thoughts on their products.
Perhaps they would like to get in touch with the administrators at Rover , Longbridge, where there are a never ending supply of gearboxes.....unlike the present supply being offered....which extends to a run of .....er.....zero
Perhaps they would like to get in touch with the administrators at Rover , Longbridge, where there are a never ending supply of gearboxes.....unlike the present supply being offered....which extends to a run of .....er.....zero
Alas poor huntnhound you may be mistaken......
These 'American cousins' are frighteningly European - RDM is after all a Dutch company and the people who work[ed] there include representation from another Nationality whose mother tongue is English.
These 'American cousins' are frighteningly European - RDM is after all a Dutch company and the people who work[ed] there include representation from another Nationality whose mother tongue is English.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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RDM
PANews,
I thought RDM was no more. I heard or read somewhere they went bankrupt last year. I did a web search and found this site.
http://www.rdmt.nl makes for some interesting reading.
BTW, what do mean by "frighteningly European" ? Aren't you proud of your European heritage, or is it just that the Netherlands was never colonized??
I thought RDM was no more. I heard or read somewhere they went bankrupt last year. I did a web search and found this site.
http://www.rdmt.nl makes for some interesting reading.
BTW, what do mean by "frighteningly European" ? Aren't you proud of your European heritage, or is it just that the Netherlands was never colonized??
Well I'll be blowed! And RDM was so easy to remember! I guess I just am not close enough to the front as far as RDM was concerned. Lucky you are.
'Frighteningly Euro' ........... it was just that the Yanks were being blamed unnecessarily [for once!].
Bearing in mind that this 'new' situation relating to MD Helicopters owners has been in place for some six months now and during that time there has been a cash injection by Boeing does that mean the ownership change has altered nothing?
In fact do Nedefco own MD or have they now gained more independence than they had through the collapse of RDM? Is that good or bad?
With this - not so new - development it is perhaps easier to understand the venom detectable in the Dutch papers [well the Telegraf anyway] at the time of the KLPD cancellation. Now it seems there was a track record.
I must cancel the Daily Mail and order a Dutch paper!
'Frighteningly Euro' ........... it was just that the Yanks were being blamed unnecessarily [for once!].
Bearing in mind that this 'new' situation relating to MD Helicopters owners has been in place for some six months now and during that time there has been a cash injection by Boeing does that mean the ownership change has altered nothing?
In fact do Nedefco own MD or have they now gained more independence than they had through the collapse of RDM? Is that good or bad?
With this - not so new - development it is perhaps easier to understand the venom detectable in the Dutch papers [well the Telegraf anyway] at the time of the KLPD cancellation. Now it seems there was a track record.
I must cancel the Daily Mail and order a Dutch paper!
Last edited by PANews; 24th Apr 2005 at 08:44.
AT LEAST SEVEN Police forces in the Central UK region - who are all EC135 operators are UNAVAILABLE and rely on support from a 902 user that is MORE OFTEN THAN NOT available to assist
Letsby Avenue I must admit that being expected to be proud of my European heritage was a bit daunting.
I thought we Brits had a bad name for shunning many European ideals .... but it bothered me less when I found that half the Germans and French of my acquaintance had similar Nationalistic thoughts not reflecting those of the politicians ....
Perhaps Notar Fan expects too much!
I thought we Brits had a bad name for shunning many European ideals .... but it bothered me less when I found that half the Germans and French of my acquaintance had similar Nationalistic thoughts not reflecting those of the politicians ....
Perhaps Notar Fan expects too much!
Today Rotorhub posted a new twist in the story relating to the future of MDHI.
It suggests ... no, it states as fact .... that the deal surrounding Boeing’s ARH proposal a modified MELB (Mission Enhanced Little Bird) ... resulted in Boeing buying out the line from MDHI.
Whilst this has removed a debt it appears that it also removes MDHI from a direct earning potential via Little Bird. In short MDHI now effectively has nothing to gain or lose from either Bell or Boeing winning the ARH competition. They will still be able to sell a civil version though and Kaman [who build shells] may have gains.
http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/D...a-a776f2bad55a
The latest on the West Midlands saga is that the Explorer remains grounded. After a couple of MGB changes 'made metal' it and a whole series of tests failed to show anything out of sync with the aircraft it was decided to await the results of a Kawasaki strip of one of the rejected boxes before risking another.
I am assured that there has been no shortage of gearboxes ... but just that it was time to call a halt to give this unusual situation time to be resolved.
It suggests ... no, it states as fact .... that the deal surrounding Boeing’s ARH proposal a modified MELB (Mission Enhanced Little Bird) ... resulted in Boeing buying out the line from MDHI.
Whilst this has removed a debt it appears that it also removes MDHI from a direct earning potential via Little Bird. In short MDHI now effectively has nothing to gain or lose from either Bell or Boeing winning the ARH competition. They will still be able to sell a civil version though and Kaman [who build shells] may have gains.
http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/D...a-a776f2bad55a
The latest on the West Midlands saga is that the Explorer remains grounded. After a couple of MGB changes 'made metal' it and a whole series of tests failed to show anything out of sync with the aircraft it was decided to await the results of a Kawasaki strip of one of the rejected boxes before risking another.
I am assured that there has been no shortage of gearboxes ... but just that it was time to call a halt to give this unusual situation time to be resolved.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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MD902 Explorer
I hope I dont sound picky or plain looking for problems, but I have just read what seemed to be a very well put together piece in one of my Shooting Mags concerning the
Great Northern Air Ambulance (GNAA) and its area's of operation in the North Eastern part of the UK it explains in good detail how everyone works as a team and how they decide what and where to take any sort of accident or incident victim,.. but then there is a small box placed into the general print which starts to give details of the actual Helicopter,
it explains that:-
" starting or shutting down in strong winds greater than 30Knts is very dangerous, as the rotor blades can bend considerably and could easily come into contact with the crew".
two questions from that statement.
Are the blades on the MD902 so flexible as to be able to bend that far ?
And if so, is there a better Heli with more rigid blades that would be more suitable for ops like this in one of the most windy areas of the UK?
Or is some one miss informed!
Vfr
Great Northern Air Ambulance (GNAA) and its area's of operation in the North Eastern part of the UK it explains in good detail how everyone works as a team and how they decide what and where to take any sort of accident or incident victim,.. but then there is a small box placed into the general print which starts to give details of the actual Helicopter,
it explains that:-
" starting or shutting down in strong winds greater than 30Knts is very dangerous, as the rotor blades can bend considerably and could easily come into contact with the crew".
two questions from that statement.
Are the blades on the MD902 so flexible as to be able to bend that far ?
And if so, is there a better Heli with more rigid blades that would be more suitable for ops like this in one of the most windy areas of the UK?
Or is some one miss informed!
Vfr