MD Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
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3 weeks for an annual?? Good God Why???? As a 135 pilot, I have no desire to put 902s out of business and affect liveleyhoods. We are not rivals, we are in the same job against the same criminals. However, if something isn't working properly, you cannot just ignore it because it might upset people. You are paying a LOT of good TAXPAYERS money for these aircraft. I don't want you all to have a 135, I want the 902s to work properly with the backup we all deserve. PLEASE don't take the comments personally, as fellow pilots we want you to be happy as well.....
concur jayteeto.
When the police buy their aircraft, I often wonder how many of them seek 'independent' advice on which a/c to put on the short list. Ideally that would be the CP's remit if he was directly employed.
I suspect, many forces went into this business being driven by bean counters who havent got the faintest idea what they are up against.
I can think of atleast 3 forces who have purchased helicopters because the UEO thinks he knows best or has a personal prejudice against either a company or a helo, without an iota of evidence to back his views up.
They're paying dearly for it now with downtime alone, never mind what the future holds....
Some people never learn from others do they..
I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from...sorry...that's too logical, I know.
When the police buy their aircraft, I often wonder how many of them seek 'independent' advice on which a/c to put on the short list. Ideally that would be the CP's remit if he was directly employed.
I suspect, many forces went into this business being driven by bean counters who havent got the faintest idea what they are up against.
I can think of atleast 3 forces who have purchased helicopters because the UEO thinks he knows best or has a personal prejudice against either a company or a helo, without an iota of evidence to back his views up.
They're paying dearly for it now with downtime alone, never mind what the future holds....
Some people never learn from others do they..
I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from...sorry...that's too logical, I know.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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My thoughts exactly re 3 weeks for annual!!! 135 users are now experiencing 5 days for 400, 7-9 for 800. With the prospect of 50 and 100 hr inspections to be removed, the 135 remains available more and more.
Questions are and should be asked as to why the 902 spends more time off-line due to lack of parts, when your using TAXPAYERS money. The CC, more importantly the bobby on the ground in any Police force expects their aircraft available to provide air support. When they see theirs is not, lots of times, for long periods, questions start to get asked as to why. AND - can't we have one of those types our neighbours are using, they are operaional most of the time. That is begining to happen.
I know of one force that wants to get rid of their 902, not because its not a capable aircraft - because it is, but because its just not available for the force to use. And thats not due to role equipment faults, as we all have those, but due to the aicraft spares situation.
Questions are and should be asked as to why the 902 spends more time off-line due to lack of parts, when your using TAXPAYERS money. The CC, more importantly the bobby on the ground in any Police force expects their aircraft available to provide air support. When they see theirs is not, lots of times, for long periods, questions start to get asked as to why. AND - can't we have one of those types our neighbours are using, they are operaional most of the time. That is begining to happen.
I know of one force that wants to get rid of their 902, not because its not a capable aircraft - because it is, but because its just not available for the force to use. And thats not due to role equipment faults, as we all have those, but due to the aicraft spares situation.
'I suppose in the perfect world, the decision would be made for them with the HO and PITO preparing a well researched short list to choose from..'
The HO and PITO did try that logical step with a document that listed all the salient numbers ... it was not the first of its kind, such a deal started in the 1980s, but there were complaints over the new document that covered all the new generation helicopters [fixed wing were dealt with in a separate document]. It was not Conkin & Dekker but it went a way towards meeting a need.
Unfortunately, although given numerous extensions, one company was unable to submit the flight test numbers in time and complained... as a result the HO walked away from the idea ... although an initial version appeared it showed big gaps for that one type [presumably for filling in later when the numbers were available!] and they quickly dropped the document so as not to offend! They never tried again.
So, with the lack of information, who is offended now?
Gearboxes
I am unsure of the exact situation currently but I believe that because of the spares supply situation gearboxes were being overhauled in Mesa rather that being sent to Kawasaki or offered as a straight swop. Part of the reason for that is/was the credit situation between MD and Kawasaki. The result is that a major gearbox fault can lead to the operator waiting for the gearbox to travel to Mesa, be rebuilt and returned. It all takes time. Maybe someone can update that information.
There are Explorer's out there with original and long time in service gearboxes but I am aware that at least one operator likens the situation to a cat on a hot tin roof....
Will it or won't it ....
The HO and PITO did try that logical step with a document that listed all the salient numbers ... it was not the first of its kind, such a deal started in the 1980s, but there were complaints over the new document that covered all the new generation helicopters [fixed wing were dealt with in a separate document]. It was not Conkin & Dekker but it went a way towards meeting a need.
Unfortunately, although given numerous extensions, one company was unable to submit the flight test numbers in time and complained... as a result the HO walked away from the idea ... although an initial version appeared it showed big gaps for that one type [presumably for filling in later when the numbers were available!] and they quickly dropped the document so as not to offend! They never tried again.
So, with the lack of information, who is offended now?
Gearboxes
I am unsure of the exact situation currently but I believe that because of the spares supply situation gearboxes were being overhauled in Mesa rather that being sent to Kawasaki or offered as a straight swop. Part of the reason for that is/was the credit situation between MD and Kawasaki. The result is that a major gearbox fault can lead to the operator waiting for the gearbox to travel to Mesa, be rebuilt and returned. It all takes time. Maybe someone can update that information.
There are Explorer's out there with original and long time in service gearboxes but I am aware that at least one operator likens the situation to a cat on a hot tin roof....
Will it or won't it ....
This is just the same old crap we used to put up with when I had the misfortune to operate MD 500D's. I suspect that for the majority of you operating the 900/902 it is your first experience with this manufacturer.
The current problems seem to be even worse, but the basic problems have existed throughout the history of the company whether it was MDHS, Boeing or MD Helicopters. Terrible product support and parts availability. Problems that go on for decades and through a vast number of modifications, redesigns and poorly thought out fixes. A massive collections of AD's. And yes, annuals that take longer than any other helicopter that has ever been built!
I wouldn't operate any of their products if you gave it to me for free. The happiest day in my career was the day the last of the little POS flew away to become someone elses nightmare.
The current problems seem to be even worse, but the basic problems have existed throughout the history of the company whether it was MDHS, Boeing or MD Helicopters. Terrible product support and parts availability. Problems that go on for decades and through a vast number of modifications, redesigns and poorly thought out fixes. A massive collections of AD's. And yes, annuals that take longer than any other helicopter that has ever been built!
I wouldn't operate any of their products if you gave it to me for free. The happiest day in my career was the day the last of the little POS flew away to become someone elses nightmare.
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I am unsure of the exact situation currently but I believe that because of the spares supply situation gearboxes were being overhauled in Mesa rather that being sent to Kawasaki or offered as a straight swop. Part of the reason for that is/was the credit situation between MD and Kawasaki. The result is that a major gearbox fault can lead to the operator waiting for the gearbox to travel to Mesa, be rebuilt and returned. It all takes time. Maybe someone can update that information.
With the highest density of 900s in your area, there is absolutely no reason for you to be posting vindictive, incorrect rubbish. Go talk to the operators, before you post such c**p.
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JTT & others - how right that the taxpayers & ground troops should be questioning the availability of their local machine. As a 135 jockey, I 'm also keen to see the 902 cut it with the rest in the same role - in terms of capability, my 902 investigations came out fairly even (good view, clever IIDS, noise sig etc) but I'm pleased we're now a lot more "S" than we might have been!
More importantly, TC hits the nail on the head (not for the first time) re "independant advice" when procuring Police aircraft. The "system" means that individual forces & UEOs often have neither the knowledge, ability, humility or remit to accept advice, or collaborate with each other, when buying aircraft. The framework allows companies to sell what they want to sell, not what the customer wants. Get it all under one (HO & PITO) roof & I reckon you'd get a better product at the end of the day. . . I know how I'd like to improve my 135 payload by 100+ kgs, tomorrow!
P.S. Again TC, concur with your "personal prejudice" comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a recent decision (as yet un-delivered & already delayed) now that a "person" has moved on!
More importantly, TC hits the nail on the head (not for the first time) re "independant advice" when procuring Police aircraft. The "system" means that individual forces & UEOs often have neither the knowledge, ability, humility or remit to accept advice, or collaborate with each other, when buying aircraft. The framework allows companies to sell what they want to sell, not what the customer wants. Get it all under one (HO & PITO) roof & I reckon you'd get a better product at the end of the day. . . I know how I'd like to improve my 135 payload by 100+ kgs, tomorrow!
P.S. Again TC, concur with your "personal prejudice" comment. It'll be interesting to see what happens to a recent decision (as yet un-delivered & already delayed) now that a "person" has moved on!
Thank you for your precise [insider] clarification of the situation relating to the long gestation period surrounding gearbox changes on MD Explorer's Notar Fan.
I think you answered the question quite clearly with your post.
As to whether asking a question [I never stated at any point that I knew the whole answer] is attempting to mislead is debatable.
I have pointed out before that asking a question [yes, even here] is never the same as going into print with misleading information in the wider world.
As the world of MD [the old guard and the new] continues to be like some secret society at times it is often difficult to get any answer never mind the correct one. Unfortunately in the main the high density of MD Explorer operators in these parts tend to hold similar views and run a tight ship that ensures that only rumours leak out.
The Yorkshire Post article will, I suspect get everyone involved in aircraft selection checking their spec notes, 'hunkering down' and looking over theirs shoulders........ for a while anyway.
Going back a few steps it seems that it OK for anyone but a journo to pose an apparent scenario and ask a question on Pprune.... But I should not be surprised, that is the reaction I have received to most questions posed towards Mesa in the last 8 years. For the record, my statement was based on information circulating [but never published at the time] at the time Sussex were stuck on the ground for a month 'awaiting a gearbox' ...... Perhaps it was erronous, if so better out than in perhaps?
Perhaps in the world inhabited by some the lengthy Sussex grounding was also a figment of someones imagination.
Still, thats another one clarified! I think.
I think you answered the question quite clearly with your post.
As to whether asking a question [I never stated at any point that I knew the whole answer] is attempting to mislead is debatable.
I have pointed out before that asking a question [yes, even here] is never the same as going into print with misleading information in the wider world.
As the world of MD [the old guard and the new] continues to be like some secret society at times it is often difficult to get any answer never mind the correct one. Unfortunately in the main the high density of MD Explorer operators in these parts tend to hold similar views and run a tight ship that ensures that only rumours leak out.
The Yorkshire Post article will, I suspect get everyone involved in aircraft selection checking their spec notes, 'hunkering down' and looking over theirs shoulders........ for a while anyway.
Going back a few steps it seems that it OK for anyone but a journo to pose an apparent scenario and ask a question on Pprune.... But I should not be surprised, that is the reaction I have received to most questions posed towards Mesa in the last 8 years. For the record, my statement was based on information circulating [but never published at the time] at the time Sussex were stuck on the ground for a month 'awaiting a gearbox' ...... Perhaps it was erronous, if so better out than in perhaps?
Perhaps in the world inhabited by some the lengthy Sussex grounding was also a figment of someones imagination.
Still, thats another one clarified! I think.
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Down time - some facts
I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest as it's rather close to home...... I have resisted posting anything so far but I think the record should be set straight about a few misunderstandings:
1. FACT - The South Yorkshire a/c has been on the deck due to component failure and the subsequent problem in obtaining a replacement part.
2. FACT - It has nothing to do with an annual or other scheduled engineering.
I personally do not have 'prejudices' against any type as the main objective is to provide a service to the public. If a balloon did the job as well then I would operate a balloon.
As for the Yorkshire Post article.. a reporter just doing his job and nothing to do with a smear campaign or whisperings in his ear.
I guess each operator has their own experience when it comes to parts availability. Mine has been.......frustrating.
I remain an optimist and do see some positives although I am realistic enough to realise there will be further bumps in the road ahead but such is life.
But for now....availability is but a few spanner turns away so must dash.
1. FACT - The South Yorkshire a/c has been on the deck due to component failure and the subsequent problem in obtaining a replacement part.
2. FACT - It has nothing to do with an annual or other scheduled engineering.
I personally do not have 'prejudices' against any type as the main objective is to provide a service to the public. If a balloon did the job as well then I would operate a balloon.
As for the Yorkshire Post article.. a reporter just doing his job and nothing to do with a smear campaign or whisperings in his ear.
I guess each operator has their own experience when it comes to parts availability. Mine has been.......frustrating.
I remain an optimist and do see some positives although I am realistic enough to realise there will be further bumps in the road ahead but such is life.
But for now....availability is but a few spanner turns away so must dash.
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MD 902 support
Once a helicopter ( or car - think about it) becomes stigmatised for whatever reasons, the value of pre-owned examples will suffer. The UK reader only has to think of the one remaining UK owned (at the moment) car manufacturer. However you polish the car - sorry - helicopter - the stigma will stick. The car - sorry helicopter - might be the greatest thing since toast and have bags of potential but its manufacturer's suppliers are simply no longer interested...they have moved on.
So you own an MD902 and would rather not. What is the best exit strategy? Well...I guess you extoll the virtues of the bird, tell the customer the wonderful job it does for you but also add that your role has changed....you need a bigger aircraft to embrace 'homeland' security or somesuch and just hope that your politicians will agree.
If it all goes the way it loos as though it will go, you will see a small specialised group of companies or even one company doing what Erikson did to the Skycrane...and what a job that was!
Its really difficult to sell something where everyone knows there is an issue but cannot admit it as doing so will dig an even bigger hole to the one they are already standing in. I've seen it in the corporate market where individuals stand to loose their own money if they pass ships on too quickly. So if you operate an MD902 with the police, take comfort that a least you personally do not bear the ownership costs - unless you are a community charge payer.
Another point you might dwell on. The MD902 was developed by a risk-sharing group of 20 or so in the Blue-Team. So what do they think (those who are left)? Kaman's position is fairly easy to read from PLC-type reports but what about Kawasaki who make the gearbox....and all the other suppliers.
So....get writing your new business case for that bigger helicopter with new capability and get those celebrated brokers out there to earn their not inconsiderable commission and sell the beastie before you get caught in the rush.
PS...Someone earlier said "smell the coffee...." That light at the end of the tunnel...its a train.....
So you own an MD902 and would rather not. What is the best exit strategy? Well...I guess you extoll the virtues of the bird, tell the customer the wonderful job it does for you but also add that your role has changed....you need a bigger aircraft to embrace 'homeland' security or somesuch and just hope that your politicians will agree.
If it all goes the way it loos as though it will go, you will see a small specialised group of companies or even one company doing what Erikson did to the Skycrane...and what a job that was!
Its really difficult to sell something where everyone knows there is an issue but cannot admit it as doing so will dig an even bigger hole to the one they are already standing in. I've seen it in the corporate market where individuals stand to loose their own money if they pass ships on too quickly. So if you operate an MD902 with the police, take comfort that a least you personally do not bear the ownership costs - unless you are a community charge payer.
Another point you might dwell on. The MD902 was developed by a risk-sharing group of 20 or so in the Blue-Team. So what do they think (those who are left)? Kaman's position is fairly easy to read from PLC-type reports but what about Kawasaki who make the gearbox....and all the other suppliers.
So....get writing your new business case for that bigger helicopter with new capability and get those celebrated brokers out there to earn their not inconsiderable commission and sell the beastie before you get caught in the rush.
PS...Someone earlier said "smell the coffee...." That light at the end of the tunnel...its a train.....
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It should be no surprise to anyone in the industry that MD lacks the liquidity to support its products. It is common knowledge that the subcontractors which make the parts to support MD products are not being paid on a timely basis. Further, the basis for this statement is not only supported by the marketplace, but have been supported by public filings with the United States Securities and Exchange Commission by Kaman. These are public documents.
With respect to 500's, there are a few parts which are difficult to attain (heads, verticals, sheet metal) but the balance of parts can be found in the marketplace as there are over 3,000 still flying and over 5,000 manufactured and a volume of aircraft necessary to support PMA. With respect to 520's, 600's and 900's, it is clearly much worse as there is not the volume of aircraft to pick parts from, nor is there necessary volume to justify PMA. Although some people, like Cyclic Hotline, beleive 500's are junk, I personally like them.
New parts in sustainable volumes will not be available from MD to the civilian market until MD is recapitalized which will in my opinion take a bankruptcy. Absent unsecured creditors forcing an involuntary bankruptcy (costs about $1,000), it is unlikely MD will file on its own.
All operators of MD products should accept the situation and plan accordingly.
With respect to 500's, there are a few parts which are difficult to attain (heads, verticals, sheet metal) but the balance of parts can be found in the marketplace as there are over 3,000 still flying and over 5,000 manufactured and a volume of aircraft necessary to support PMA. With respect to 520's, 600's and 900's, it is clearly much worse as there is not the volume of aircraft to pick parts from, nor is there necessary volume to justify PMA. Although some people, like Cyclic Hotline, beleive 500's are junk, I personally like them.
New parts in sustainable volumes will not be available from MD to the civilian market until MD is recapitalized which will in my opinion take a bankruptcy. Absent unsecured creditors forcing an involuntary bankruptcy (costs about $1,000), it is unlikely MD will file on its own.
All operators of MD products should accept the situation and plan accordingly.
How about the pilot's eye view then? I fly both 902 and 135 regularly and therefore feel capable of an objective view.
1) There is no doubt in my mind that the 135 cockpit was designed by a designer when the pilot was off sick - just look at the number of knobs and switches, and more importantly, their locations (eg the altimeter setting knob).
2) In controlled training conditions, I have yet to see anyone lose less than 10% Nr when counted down into a practice double engine failure. I would suggest that the situation would be impossible to recover from were it to happen for real. By the way, the landing light goes out as well, and where's the switch to get it back (the shed bus switch)? You guessed it - right at the back of the overhead switch panel.
3) Management of the EFIS and autopilot is done exclusively from the centre console and not from within the pilot's natural field of view - not very sensible for a single pilot IFR aircraft.
4) The 902 cabin is bigger, but overall length is less.
5) You can't argue about the 902's high tail and lack of rotating components at the back - a huge plus for HEMS ops.
You will be gathering that I'm not a huge fan of the 135, and you'd be right, though it has to be said that, when set up to best effect, the toys are more advanced than the 902. However, from a pilot's point of view the 902 is so much more intuitive and simpler to manage - 19 "silver switches" compared to 33 in the 135 (trust me - I've just counted them), and all AP and EFIS controls on the instrument panel.
Having said all that, there are weaknesses. The 135 is much happier hovering out of wind, and if it all went pear shaped down the back end, I think I'd probably find it easier to get a 135 back on the ground in one piece. Also, the T2 "Training mode" is sensational. Finally, and significantly for a man of my advanced years, when the 902 design team were doing "getting in and out of the front", the pilot was on a day off, and the result is catatrophic.
At the end of the day the industry needs competition, and if MD could find a way to put its troubles behind it, ECD would have that in spades.
1) There is no doubt in my mind that the 135 cockpit was designed by a designer when the pilot was off sick - just look at the number of knobs and switches, and more importantly, their locations (eg the altimeter setting knob).
2) In controlled training conditions, I have yet to see anyone lose less than 10% Nr when counted down into a practice double engine failure. I would suggest that the situation would be impossible to recover from were it to happen for real. By the way, the landing light goes out as well, and where's the switch to get it back (the shed bus switch)? You guessed it - right at the back of the overhead switch panel.
3) Management of the EFIS and autopilot is done exclusively from the centre console and not from within the pilot's natural field of view - not very sensible for a single pilot IFR aircraft.
4) The 902 cabin is bigger, but overall length is less.
5) You can't argue about the 902's high tail and lack of rotating components at the back - a huge plus for HEMS ops.
You will be gathering that I'm not a huge fan of the 135, and you'd be right, though it has to be said that, when set up to best effect, the toys are more advanced than the 902. However, from a pilot's point of view the 902 is so much more intuitive and simpler to manage - 19 "silver switches" compared to 33 in the 135 (trust me - I've just counted them), and all AP and EFIS controls on the instrument panel.
Having said all that, there are weaknesses. The 135 is much happier hovering out of wind, and if it all went pear shaped down the back end, I think I'd probably find it easier to get a 135 back on the ground in one piece. Also, the T2 "Training mode" is sensational. Finally, and significantly for a man of my advanced years, when the 902 design team were doing "getting in and out of the front", the pilot was on a day off, and the result is catatrophic.
At the end of the day the industry needs competition, and if MD could find a way to put its troubles behind it, ECD would have that in spades.
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Its good to see some positive press for the 902, I would love the AP switches to be in a better position on the 135. I think the crux of the argument is still: Better to have 33 switches I can use, than 19 in the hangar. What about a merger between EC and MD to get the best of both worlds?????
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jayteeto
That would just confine the 902 to the dustbin as they would kill it off rather than see it compete with one of their product lines. Let's just hope that Colin and his team can still keep selling them whilst somebody stumps up the dosh to keep it solvent.
That would just confine the 902 to the dustbin as they would kill it off rather than see it compete with one of their product lines. Let's just hope that Colin and his team can still keep selling them whilst somebody stumps up the dosh to keep it solvent.
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In controlled training conditions, I have yet to see anyone lose less than 10% Nr when counted down into a practice double engine failure. I would suggest that the situation would be impossible to recover from were it to happen for real.
I would concur, however, with the switch comments - how, especially, it was decided to put the Cat A switch so far from single pilot reach, I cannot fathom. (For those unaware, this requires hand off collective at 55kts / 100' or so, on take off or approach, unlock seat harness, reach forward, make switch, re-sit & continue). Why one of the unused buttons, on either collective or cyclic, can't be used is anyone's guess!
There may be plenty of things to improve on the 135, but as JTT says, better be able to use working bits, in a fiddly fashion, than just fiddle with a few bust bits in a hangar queen!
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MD.....hmmmmm
I've tried to be very balanced about my comments on MD and I could not agree more with those who say we need the competition out there. The MD 902 forced ECto get the EC135T2 to where it is now in the UK, and I think the Uk users should be pleased about that.
MD sold off their Civil helicopter programme and then joined Boeing. Why? There is not much money in developing and selling new helicopters in today's litigous and highly certified and controlled World. Ask Eurocopter for a special MOD these days and see what reply you get there.
The money is not in making civil helicopters and it remains a mystery (I won't even start to guess where the money comes from) why individuals choose to buy helicopter companies. Frankly they must be mad or keen to make a tax-loss. How does it go? Want a small fortune! Start with a big one and buy a helicopter (company)!
Yup we need competition and it would be really nice if some rich gent dipped into his pocket to pay MD to be some pace-setting hare! Well, maybe someone will want to buy MD....look where the money comes from in Football these days.
'33 switches in the air versus 19 in the hangar' - good phrase and just about sums it up!
hmmmmm
MD sold off their Civil helicopter programme and then joined Boeing. Why? There is not much money in developing and selling new helicopters in today's litigous and highly certified and controlled World. Ask Eurocopter for a special MOD these days and see what reply you get there.
The money is not in making civil helicopters and it remains a mystery (I won't even start to guess where the money comes from) why individuals choose to buy helicopter companies. Frankly they must be mad or keen to make a tax-loss. How does it go? Want a small fortune! Start with a big one and buy a helicopter (company)!
Yup we need competition and it would be really nice if some rich gent dipped into his pocket to pay MD to be some pace-setting hare! Well, maybe someone will want to buy MD....look where the money comes from in Football these days.
'33 switches in the air versus 19 in the hangar' - good phrase and just about sums it up!
hmmmmm
Have to agree with previous comments on the Cat A switch. I find it difficult to believe that it could not have been made as an 'arming' switch, allowing the Cat A mode to be activated by IAS data.
Other than that (and the shed bus switch) though, it's the dogs danglies!
TeeS
Other than that (and the shed bus switch) though, it's the dogs danglies!
TeeS
Rumour has it that when undertaking major work on one of the Explorers [possibly the West Midlands airframe] at PAS in Staverton trouble was found with one of the new design securing pins. It 'just fell apart' .... [ouch!].
These are the redesigned 'fit and forget' pins not those that resulted in a short term general grounding last year.
That was a week ago and so far nothing has leaked out of the 'tight ship' to confirm the story.......
.... or otherwise.
Unless you know better?
These are the redesigned 'fit and forget' pins not those that resulted in a short term general grounding last year.
That was a week ago and so far nothing has leaked out of the 'tight ship' to confirm the story.......
.... or otherwise.
Unless you know better?