Africa Ride (video) Any opinions?
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If by line choices you mean a vertical climb <50 yds from the cliff while facing it then I think we're on the same wavelength.
If by no issue you mean no issue with more than slightly risking the lives of the pax, who might have had the plan explained but would have no idea of the consequence of a mal - then we're not.
Chasing animals, filmwork etc don't tend to have too many fare-payers do they?
Kill yourselves by all means fellas (the chances are high - although I'm sure in your own estimation you're all great polers, no doubt you've got some great tales to tell eh?) - leave the public out of it.
If by no issue you mean no issue with more than slightly risking the lives of the pax, who might have had the plan explained but would have no idea of the consequence of a mal - then we're not.
Chasing animals, filmwork etc don't tend to have too many fare-payers do they?
Kill yourselves by all means fellas (the chances are high - although I'm sure in your own estimation you're all great polers, no doubt you've got some great tales to tell eh?) - leave the public out of it.
Beefer,
You failed to read the post I fear....there is "cowboying" and there is "low flying". One is done impromptu and without due care and circumspection where the other is done with all consideration of the risks and ramifications of operating close to terrain and obstacles. If I also told you of having done it at night....I would imagine you would have a Grand Mal Seizure. Military pilots and some civilian pilots do this kind of flying daily and nightly...as a common way of doing business.
When one pushes the limits but does so with great care and circumspection....it is an altogether different thing than being the "cowboy". One can become a slave to regimentation and think all is well. I would hate to think I never had the sheer pleasure this kind of flying can provide.
I would suggest throwing water at a raging forest fire in the high mountains during summer time while flying a forty year old aircraft toting a 150 foot longline might also scare you away too. However, that is a common practice amongst my peers....and the one thing we all have in common usually is a lot of gray hair, raggedty beards, and lots and lots of flying away from airports.
If one is not comfortable doing challenging work with helicopters, then by all means stick to what you are comfortable with but do not suggest that those who do the utility flying do so without ability, professionalism, or a very healthy respect for safety. It is demanding work and most unforgiving of mistakes.
You might realize I hope, that flying a clean aircraft at high speed close to the ground is far easier and safer than hovering out of ground effect with a longline. Probably upon reflection and analysis of the various issues surrounding the kind of flying I am talking about here....you might come to a realization that doing it...and talking about it are two completely different things.
The common thread to this topic seems to be...those that have done this kind of flying seem not to be off put by the video...whereas those that have no exposure to it, all seem taken aback by it. Take yourself out to a fire and watch what goes on sometime....North Sea flying is a completely different kettle of fish.
But...in reality...I guess there are helicopter pilots...and there are Helicopter Pilots. The difference is definitely in "attitude" and "experience".
When I did my CAA medical....the Quack made a comment about my "Cowboy" boots (a very nice pair of Tony Lama's they wuz)....and I told him that just because I wore Cowboy boots....did not mean I flew like one. That was in 1976....and nothing has changed since then.
You failed to read the post I fear....there is "cowboying" and there is "low flying". One is done impromptu and without due care and circumspection where the other is done with all consideration of the risks and ramifications of operating close to terrain and obstacles. If I also told you of having done it at night....I would imagine you would have a Grand Mal Seizure. Military pilots and some civilian pilots do this kind of flying daily and nightly...as a common way of doing business.
When one pushes the limits but does so with great care and circumspection....it is an altogether different thing than being the "cowboy". One can become a slave to regimentation and think all is well. I would hate to think I never had the sheer pleasure this kind of flying can provide.
I would suggest throwing water at a raging forest fire in the high mountains during summer time while flying a forty year old aircraft toting a 150 foot longline might also scare you away too. However, that is a common practice amongst my peers....and the one thing we all have in common usually is a lot of gray hair, raggedty beards, and lots and lots of flying away from airports.
If one is not comfortable doing challenging work with helicopters, then by all means stick to what you are comfortable with but do not suggest that those who do the utility flying do so without ability, professionalism, or a very healthy respect for safety. It is demanding work and most unforgiving of mistakes.
You might realize I hope, that flying a clean aircraft at high speed close to the ground is far easier and safer than hovering out of ground effect with a longline. Probably upon reflection and analysis of the various issues surrounding the kind of flying I am talking about here....you might come to a realization that doing it...and talking about it are two completely different things.
The common thread to this topic seems to be...those that have done this kind of flying seem not to be off put by the video...whereas those that have no exposure to it, all seem taken aback by it. Take yourself out to a fire and watch what goes on sometime....North Sea flying is a completely different kettle of fish.
But...in reality...I guess there are helicopter pilots...and there are Helicopter Pilots. The difference is definitely in "attitude" and "experience".
When I did my CAA medical....the Quack made a comment about my "Cowboy" boots (a very nice pair of Tony Lama's they wuz)....and I told him that just because I wore Cowboy boots....did not mean I flew like one. That was in 1976....and nothing has changed since then.
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done with all consideration of the risks and ramifications of operating close to terr
SAS - it was hard to tell in the video, but was there a drill on the front of that chopper? That was the only way that boy was going to get out of the engine coughing in front of a cliff.
Although I'm sure you find it hard to accept, some of the rest of us have also dragged our sorry asses out of bed to do some scary flying, generally with a real need. I totally accept your point about utility drivers, firefighting, long-liners et al - however, if you are going to try to tell me that video is a show piece for professional aviation then I refer you to your 2nd place.
I'm all for having a good time when airborne, just not at the expense of the lives of all the other folks on board. You can't really cover up lousy flying just by saying you take "due care etc". Or maybe you can?
Not sure the Grand Mal is inbound just yet old-timer. You and the other pilots that supposedly define the "real" drivers just carry on posting your drivel - hopefully one or two others will start to see through it.
I told you you'd have a tale to tell - keep up the good work!
Looking forward to your next endorsement of crap flying.
SB
Although I'm sure you find it hard to accept, some of the rest of us have also dragged our sorry asses out of bed to do some scary flying, generally with a real need. I totally accept your point about utility drivers, firefighting, long-liners et al - however, if you are going to try to tell me that video is a show piece for professional aviation then I refer you to your 2nd place.
I'm all for having a good time when airborne, just not at the expense of the lives of all the other folks on board. You can't really cover up lousy flying just by saying you take "due care etc". Or maybe you can?
Not sure the Grand Mal is inbound just yet old-timer. You and the other pilots that supposedly define the "real" drivers just carry on posting your drivel - hopefully one or two others will start to see through it.
I told you you'd have a tale to tell - keep up the good work!
Looking forward to your next endorsement of crap flying.
SB
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Scottishbeefer,
Oh dear…down to 3rd in your COMT club awards. Guess I’ll have to try harder!
Can I have another go!
Have you thought that if you are really concerned about an engine failure (in a single engine turbine) then the only place you won’t be going, after the event in a low speed/high power climb, is straight ahead. If you manage to stop the yaw within the first 90 degrees then I reckon you are pretty much on the ball. The same goes for a tail rotor malfunction (that one is for Mr. Lappos).
But then as our French friends say “it never happens”!!!
There…is that worth 2nd?
Oh dear…down to 3rd in your COMT club awards. Guess I’ll have to try harder!
Can I have another go!
Have you thought that if you are really concerned about an engine failure (in a single engine turbine) then the only place you won’t be going, after the event in a low speed/high power climb, is straight ahead. If you manage to stop the yaw within the first 90 degrees then I reckon you are pretty much on the ball. The same goes for a tail rotor malfunction (that one is for Mr. Lappos).
But then as our French friends say “it never happens”!!!
There…is that worth 2nd?
Scottish.....the most dangerous thing about you must be the chance of you falling asleep in that little cocoon you fly in !! I can only think that you are in the wrong line of work !! I used to fly crop dusting which involves flying straight at trees low level and usually at MAUW, some of the guys i flew with had 10,000 + hrs of that kind of flying without serious incident. The fact is it is all to do with competence and i could see nothing wrong in his flying ,videos always distort things and you needed to be there to know. As for taking his hands of the controls........unbelievable bad form ......he should have a bird up front to scratch them for him if he,s a true pro !!
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ScottishBeefer
SAS's vast number of posts? Number of posts doesn't mean anything. Some very experienced guys join in discussions a lot, some now and again. Some low timers post all the time, some mainly read and learn.
In case you missed it, this was posted by someone else about SASless, not by him.
It doesn't mean he's always right, nobody is, but it means he's entitled to more respect than you show when you say he's wrong. Ever thought of disagreeing with people without being so rude?
SAS's vast number of posts? Number of posts doesn't mean anything. Some very experienced guys join in discussions a lot, some now and again. Some low timers post all the time, some mainly read and learn.
How sad that there may be unsuspecting PPruners out there who consider that your words have weight.
10,000+ hours including 2000 US Army instructing, two Chinook combat tours in Vietnam, four years flying Hueys in the National Guard and flying numerous types in various ops all over the world.
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Beef.
It sounds to me like you are one of those guys who flies around in white gloves trying hard not to spill your coffee.
Many of us routinly fly in environments where should the engine quit, the trailrotor let go, the hydraulics sieze, or any other mechanical failure occur, we are in a very precarious position. As SASless so eloquently points out, these are risks that are assessed, considered and delt with. If they are too great, which they often are, we don't go. There are countless routine jobs where the paying customer IS in considerable danger should things go wrong - but somehow we do them anyway, and the number accidents is small. I don't consider Forestry personel, Game Branch, or Geologists any different than the tourist. They are all people, and people who expect the machine to be operated in a safe, professioanl, and efficient manner - and to live through the flight.
This video aside, your attitude is one that demonstrates an acute lack of understanding and experience in these types of work. There many with far more time and experience than I, but your blanket criticism of Utility type operatioins is offensive and misguided. I personally invite you to the moutainous, and Northern regions of Canada to view these types of operations yourself. I'm sure others would be just as happy to have you over to NZ, AUS, PNG, the US, Africa, SE Asia and the many other places where helicopters are used for occasions other than straight and level.
RH
It sounds to me like you are one of those guys who flies around in white gloves trying hard not to spill your coffee.
Many of us routinly fly in environments where should the engine quit, the trailrotor let go, the hydraulics sieze, or any other mechanical failure occur, we are in a very precarious position. As SASless so eloquently points out, these are risks that are assessed, considered and delt with. If they are too great, which they often are, we don't go. There are countless routine jobs where the paying customer IS in considerable danger should things go wrong - but somehow we do them anyway, and the number accidents is small. I don't consider Forestry personel, Game Branch, or Geologists any different than the tourist. They are all people, and people who expect the machine to be operated in a safe, professioanl, and efficient manner - and to live through the flight.
This video aside, your attitude is one that demonstrates an acute lack of understanding and experience in these types of work. There many with far more time and experience than I, but your blanket criticism of Utility type operatioins is offensive and misguided. I personally invite you to the moutainous, and Northern regions of Canada to view these types of operations yourself. I'm sure others would be just as happy to have you over to NZ, AUS, PNG, the US, Africa, SE Asia and the many other places where helicopters are used for occasions other than straight and level.
RH
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I totally accept your point about utility drivers, firefighting, long-liners et al
So having agreed about the above, tell me again why you've got you're knickers in a twist?
Fee paying pax - wasn't that what we're talking about? Perhaps you need to read the whole post - not a blanket criticism of utility drivers was it?
I'm sure we've all scraped the treetops while getting paid for some useful flying or other - but if you do it with tourists on board, I'm afraid that makes you a schmuck.
Not overestimating my own importance at all - merely stating my opinion.
Fee paying pax - wasn't that what we're talking about? Perhaps you need to read the whole post - not a blanket criticism of utility drivers was it?
I'm sure we've all scraped the treetops while getting paid for some useful flying or other - but if you do it with tourists on board, I'm afraid that makes you a schmuck.
Not overestimating my own importance at all - merely stating my opinion.
If we weren't show-offs by nature, we probably wouldn't be pilots - most military pilots go through the 'wazzing and zooming' phase a couple of years into their careers and often frighten themselves when they have a close call before backing off slightly and flying to what they perceive as an 'acceptable' risk level. The problem is that each of us has a different idea of 'acceptable' risk and it is partly due to ego and arrogance - the greater pilot you think you are, the more you believe you can handle anything and that nothing bad can happen to you (it's the same with driving a car, right up until you have a crash - then you slow down a bit).
The guy in the Africa video may be a good pilot but he assumes that because he has got away with it many times before that a. he will continue to get away with it and b. he's got to keep doing it anyway because that's what the tourists want.
The Puma stuff is a bit boring frankly - anyone can wazz at 5' over flat terrain with no obstacles, it's not skilfull but it is fun when you have your hands on the poles.
Horses for courses - I wouldn't fly fare-paying passengers in that manner repeatedly, and I certainly wouldn't let anyone video me doing it if I did it as a one-off. The pilot seems happy to continue - it's his risk assessment.
However, it would be interesting to see the comments from the 'pro' posters on this thread if we were discussing a pilot killing 3 pax in a heli crash because he was giving them an 'interesting ride' that went wrong.
The guy in the Africa video may be a good pilot but he assumes that because he has got away with it many times before that a. he will continue to get away with it and b. he's got to keep doing it anyway because that's what the tourists want.
The Puma stuff is a bit boring frankly - anyone can wazz at 5' over flat terrain with no obstacles, it's not skilfull but it is fun when you have your hands on the poles.
Horses for courses - I wouldn't fly fare-paying passengers in that manner repeatedly, and I certainly wouldn't let anyone video me doing it if I did it as a one-off. The pilot seems happy to continue - it's his risk assessment.
However, it would be interesting to see the comments from the 'pro' posters on this thread if we were discussing a pilot killing 3 pax in a heli crash because he was giving them an 'interesting ride' that went wrong.
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Concur with Crab.
Just to wrap up my input to this thread, SAS - I'm sure you've been called worse, I have! No (significant) offence - just the impestuosity of (relative) youth.
Strop, let's just remind ourselves of your beautiful prose:
"WHAT IF, WHAT IF, WHAT IF. Bloody hell !! What if a tile fell off the space shuttle and hit you in the head ? should you stop walking out my front door each morning? For @#$& sake you may as well get a thrill out of live when you can! Not all of us want to be a boring stick in the mud prats. So what if they bite it, at least they go out having a blast. Life goes on, no one lives forever you know"
Try the Wannabe forum, find out how you can get your licence and then see if you like flying. Good luck fella - I think you might need it.
SB out
Just to wrap up my input to this thread, SAS - I'm sure you've been called worse, I have! No (significant) offence - just the impestuosity of (relative) youth.
Strop, let's just remind ourselves of your beautiful prose:
"WHAT IF, WHAT IF, WHAT IF. Bloody hell !! What if a tile fell off the space shuttle and hit you in the head ? should you stop walking out my front door each morning? For @#$& sake you may as well get a thrill out of live when you can! Not all of us want to be a boring stick in the mud prats. So what if they bite it, at least they go out having a blast. Life goes on, no one lives forever you know"
Try the Wannabe forum, find out how you can get your licence and then see if you like flying. Good luck fella - I think you might need it.
SB out
Last edited by scottishbeefer; 1st Feb 2006 at 07:19.
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scottishbeefer
Nice try.... but I'm happy with the way things are going after fifteen years of flying. Maybe you should find out how to get a brain of some use! Then you could pick a wind up !
Nice try.... but I'm happy with the way things are going after fifteen years of flying. Maybe you should find out how to get a brain of some use! Then you could pick a wind up !
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Top Puma Vid!!!!
Now thats what i call a fun flying video! I know the guy in Africa may be very experianced but flying hands off with Pax is a tad silly!!!
Get me in the Puma any day!!!!!
I bet those truck drivers Shat themsevles when that beast came thundering over them at 120kts!!
R22
Now thats what i call a fun flying video! I know the guy in Africa may be very experianced but flying hands off with Pax is a tad silly!!!
Get me in the Puma any day!!!!!
I bet those truck drivers Shat themsevles when that beast came thundering over them at 120kts!!
R22
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And then there's the story of some *ahem* Army aviators in the Northern Territory flying B47's (gives you an idea how old this story is), returning from training exercises over a long straight bit of highway, coming down from above and behind a car, matching the speed, until they were flying along directly over the car with the skids almost touching the roof, frightening the living daylights out of the occupants of the car. Imagine the embarrasment when they tried to do it again with a headwind, and in the old B47 weren't able to match the speed of the car - cue nonchalent peeling off to allow car to continue unmolested.
R22
yes you can take your hands off in a REAL helicopter !! I hear that some people even fly with the cyclic between their knees !!
but again i think only in a real one...
yes you can take your hands off in a REAL helicopter !! I hear that some people even fly with the cyclic between their knees !!
but again i think only in a real one...
I bet some hands are off the sticks while the boys are scarfing down their scran from the rigs...and that is for sure a longer time than seen in the video.
A "Look Ma...No Hands!" thingy is not to be compared to getting down a proper Nosh from the North Sea rigs.
A "Look Ma...No Hands!" thingy is not to be compared to getting down a proper Nosh from the North Sea rigs.
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Its alright for you guys flying hands off in your nice autopiloted helis!! But i wouldnt even dare in my 22! Ive seen more stability in a drinken hobo than in my little clunker!!!
No but seriously guys, flying hands off whilst manouvering like that with Pax is just asking for him to get bit in the ass!!!
R22
No but seriously guys, flying hands off whilst manouvering like that with Pax is just asking for him to get bit in the ass!!!
R22
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No Hands
Well....from an observers point of view....if the donkey quits...surely the main reaction is from the tail rotor which he`s feet were ready to counter and then the collective needs to get pushed down pretty quickly , he`s left hand is there already....so its he`s right hand here and that only needs to get to the cyclic...which is right there...and what reaction is the cyclic going to make to the donkey quitting...? not too much I think...
I have been on board an Aloutte whilst an instructor did a demo of an auto rotation...those days it was the real thing...fuel off...engine dies and down you go....have to land...no flaring at 50ft and going around.....anyway...the instructor...AW, a legend ....did it hands off the cyclic...knees only...and that included the turn into wind and descent....only used hands again for the touchdown...point was to show the student that its not such a sweat....to get him to relax....So I reckon all the hype is a bit over the top. Vultures Retreat is scary, if you lose the donkey in there you are in ****e...and thats part of a training syllabus.....this vid is tame.
I have been on board an Aloutte whilst an instructor did a demo of an auto rotation...those days it was the real thing...fuel off...engine dies and down you go....have to land...no flaring at 50ft and going around.....anyway...the instructor...AW, a legend ....did it hands off the cyclic...knees only...and that included the turn into wind and descent....only used hands again for the touchdown...point was to show the student that its not such a sweat....to get him to relax....So I reckon all the hype is a bit over the top. Vultures Retreat is scary, if you lose the donkey in there you are in ****e...and thats part of a training syllabus.....this vid is tame.
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scottishbeefer,
hm.... beefer. OK big deal, you are or were a military QHI. Crab probably was it? Scottish hmmm flying big machines on really exciting 2 hour drones out to offshore platforms? Matbe I've got you wrong - maybe you longline with PDG out of Inverness? Know SASless, concur with his remarks. Even in military days remember when the crabs didn't come and get me out of a tight spot. SASless was well known in Vietnam. None of the pax looked to be anything other than happy, cameras always foreshorten distances, always looked to be plenty of places to put down. You should volunteer to take over the number 2 slot. Maybe you should be considering a career flying 747s - you don't seem to be cut from the cloth of which real helicopter pilots are made.
hm.... beefer. OK big deal, you are or were a military QHI. Crab probably was it? Scottish hmmm flying big machines on really exciting 2 hour drones out to offshore platforms? Matbe I've got you wrong - maybe you longline with PDG out of Inverness? Know SASless, concur with his remarks. Even in military days remember when the crabs didn't come and get me out of a tight spot. SASless was well known in Vietnam. None of the pax looked to be anything other than happy, cameras always foreshorten distances, always looked to be plenty of places to put down. You should volunteer to take over the number 2 slot. Maybe you should be considering a career flying 747s - you don't seem to be cut from the cloth of which real helicopter pilots are made.