CRM issue...
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CRM issue...
Had a tricky flight the other day and would like some advice on how to deal with it, if at all.
I am a relatively new FO and was flying with a highly experienced Captain who is nearing retirement. It would be fair to say he is slightly disillusioned with the job nowadays. He clearly knows his stuff but his lack of regard for SOPs at times leave me struggling to maintain situational awareness at times.
It was only small things, here are some examples. Putting the gear up before I ask. It is supposed to be his positive climb call then I request gear up. Also before the autopilot went on while I was still handflying after departure he was changing heading and speed modes and altitudes on the autopilot panel before I requested them.
He repeatedly misses out altimeter checks, i.e. when PF, I set cleared level, he is supposed to confirm it, then I commence climb & descent.
He also cancels masters cautions without stating them and allowing me to check them because they always come up at the same time.
So the thing is I spend half the flight asking him to confirm things, checking what he has done, etc trying not to become a nuisance.
Finally, on final he used idle thrust when SOP is a particular minimum N1 (which is more than idle) for deceleration, and at 900RA he is still drinking his tea. Makes me feel very on edge wondering when he is going to put his hands on the controls (SOP is below MSA) and act like a pilot.
I'm worried if I go straight to chief pilot or similar it will cause a big fuss when it could be dealt with more discreetly.
Before anyone jumps the gun, I am confident, and assertive but you can't challenge everything all the time, and none of these things made me really uncomfortable, but it doesn't lead to a smooth flight that felt well coordinated.
I am a relatively new FO and was flying with a highly experienced Captain who is nearing retirement. It would be fair to say he is slightly disillusioned with the job nowadays. He clearly knows his stuff but his lack of regard for SOPs at times leave me struggling to maintain situational awareness at times.
It was only small things, here are some examples. Putting the gear up before I ask. It is supposed to be his positive climb call then I request gear up. Also before the autopilot went on while I was still handflying after departure he was changing heading and speed modes and altitudes on the autopilot panel before I requested them.
He repeatedly misses out altimeter checks, i.e. when PF, I set cleared level, he is supposed to confirm it, then I commence climb & descent.
He also cancels masters cautions without stating them and allowing me to check them because they always come up at the same time.
So the thing is I spend half the flight asking him to confirm things, checking what he has done, etc trying not to become a nuisance.
Finally, on final he used idle thrust when SOP is a particular minimum N1 (which is more than idle) for deceleration, and at 900RA he is still drinking his tea. Makes me feel very on edge wondering when he is going to put his hands on the controls (SOP is below MSA) and act like a pilot.
I'm worried if I go straight to chief pilot or similar it will cause a big fuss when it could be dealt with more discreetly.
Before anyone jumps the gun, I am confident, and assertive but you can't challenge everything all the time, and none of these things made me really uncomfortable, but it doesn't lead to a smooth flight that felt well coordinated.
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SOPs and old farts...
Dear Mungo...
xxx
You clearly stated that you are a fairly new F/O...
And I am a captain close to retirement, so I could be the subject of your criticism.
xxx
I do not fly with junior F/Os, as I am on the 747-200, my F/Os are somewhat senior pilots with many years (and hours) of experience. I have been flight training manager for a few years, and often deal with similar accusations about our B-737 and MD-80 captains, who are dealing with F/Os of similar level of experience as yours.
xxx
It amazes me to see the high technical knowledge, of new F/Os, and also their lack of airmanship. SOPs are just a tool, nothing more. Deviations from SOPs are warranted when circumstances dictate. I probably do the same myself, but my senior F/Os are experienced and immediately know why I sometime deviate from the said SOPs. And I give them that privilege too, when required.
xxx
I do a lot of things which are not SOPs...
As example, I sequence flaps and gear extensions a different way (non SOP) to save fuel, most pilots do same as I do.
Top of descent, I ask wing anti-ice ON (non SOP) to warm-up leading edge flap actuators, it helps them to operate as required.
I like to use aerodynamic braking after touch-down and avoid using auto-brakes (non SOP) as I once had defective auto-brakes system and blew 7 tyres.
I do my landings with 25 flaps (SOP), but call for 30 flaps after touch down...
Shall I continue...?
xxx
I learned my trade as a junior F/O with expert old fart captains, and remember their good advices, back in my 707 and 727 days, and for me, the ability of programming FMS in 6.5 seconds before start, by some F/O is not a demonstration of airmanship for future captains.
xxx
Last word... I did not transition to the 747-400s 2 years ago for only one reason. For me, they lack the most important crewmember in the flight deck, which is the F/E. I will retire when the last 747-200 is retired. Winglets are not a turn-on for me.
xxx
My friend Mungo, that captain might be disgusted the way the airline industry is nowadays, and, believe me, he is absolutely right. I share his opinions, and who knows how the industry and employment conditions will be in 20 years from now, when you will be a senior captain. Good luck to you.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
You clearly stated that you are a fairly new F/O...
And I am a captain close to retirement, so I could be the subject of your criticism.
xxx
I do not fly with junior F/Os, as I am on the 747-200, my F/Os are somewhat senior pilots with many years (and hours) of experience. I have been flight training manager for a few years, and often deal with similar accusations about our B-737 and MD-80 captains, who are dealing with F/Os of similar level of experience as yours.
xxx
It amazes me to see the high technical knowledge, of new F/Os, and also their lack of airmanship. SOPs are just a tool, nothing more. Deviations from SOPs are warranted when circumstances dictate. I probably do the same myself, but my senior F/Os are experienced and immediately know why I sometime deviate from the said SOPs. And I give them that privilege too, when required.
xxx
I do a lot of things which are not SOPs...
As example, I sequence flaps and gear extensions a different way (non SOP) to save fuel, most pilots do same as I do.
Top of descent, I ask wing anti-ice ON (non SOP) to warm-up leading edge flap actuators, it helps them to operate as required.
I like to use aerodynamic braking after touch-down and avoid using auto-brakes (non SOP) as I once had defective auto-brakes system and blew 7 tyres.
I do my landings with 25 flaps (SOP), but call for 30 flaps after touch down...
Shall I continue...?
xxx
I learned my trade as a junior F/O with expert old fart captains, and remember their good advices, back in my 707 and 727 days, and for me, the ability of programming FMS in 6.5 seconds before start, by some F/O is not a demonstration of airmanship for future captains.
xxx
Last word... I did not transition to the 747-400s 2 years ago for only one reason. For me, they lack the most important crewmember in the flight deck, which is the F/E. I will retire when the last 747-200 is retired. Winglets are not a turn-on for me.
xxx
My friend Mungo, that captain might be disgusted the way the airline industry is nowadays, and, believe me, he is absolutely right. I share his opinions, and who knows how the industry and employment conditions will be in 20 years from now, when you will be a senior captain. Good luck to you.
xxx
Happy contrails
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Mungo, thanks for your post, you obviously take your job very seriously and no doubt you worked hard to get to where you are.
xx
My suggestion is not to let these deviations become an annoyance to you, continue to stay on top of your company SOP's so when you work with a new captain, you will both be on the same page.
xx
There is a big difference between what you observed to be non compliance with SOP and safety, don't confuse the two.
xx
Relax and get to know the guy in the left seat, make it a learning experience.
xx
Safe flying!
xx
My suggestion is not to let these deviations become an annoyance to you, continue to stay on top of your company SOP's so when you work with a new captain, you will both be on the same page.
xx
There is a big difference between what you observed to be non compliance with SOP and safety, don't confuse the two.
xx
Relax and get to know the guy in the left seat, make it a learning experience.
xx
Safe flying!
Mungo Man, you have all my sympathies! When I joined commercial aviation in 1970 as a (young!) Second Officer many of the Captains were "characters" - they were called "Atlantic Barons". In the world we now live in their style of captaincy would not be appropriate BUT these guys had come up through the Stratocruisers, Constellations etc with minimum levels of automation and much less reliability. It was quite challenging flying with some of these individuals BUT they knew the job inside out and knew what was important and what was not. Woe betide if anyone questioned the authority of the commander!
As BelArgUSA relates things were quite different then. I decided early on that I was going to learn from these guys and tap into their vast wealth of experience. I didnt think they were always right about everything but I did learn a lot. Part of the FOs lot is working with the Captain because, whatever you think, he/she is the Captain!
Aviation has and is going through a period of massive change - who knows what sorts of a/c we will be operating in ten years from now? However human beings do not change - you cannot change other people but you can change your own attitude to what is going on around you! I have digressed a little but I hope these comments help your journey.
As BelArgUSA relates things were quite different then. I decided early on that I was going to learn from these guys and tap into their vast wealth of experience. I didnt think they were always right about everything but I did learn a lot. Part of the FOs lot is working with the Captain because, whatever you think, he/she is the Captain!
Aviation has and is going through a period of massive change - who knows what sorts of a/c we will be operating in ten years from now? However human beings do not change - you cannot change other people but you can change your own attitude to what is going on around you! I have digressed a little but I hope these comments help your journey.
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BelArgUSA, I appreciate you comments, but maybe you explain to FOs what you are going to do. In my mind a pilot who deviates from SOPs without explanation or obvious reason is displaying poor airmanship because it adversely affects me.
The very fact that I am inexperienced means that SOPs are important to me because they are all I know at the moment. I made the tranistion to a jet from feather-light piston single and know it is a big step. I just want to operate the jet as best I can. I prefer not to be sat on the right sweating about whether the Captain knows what he's dong.
I know ultimately its all about experience and so far I have had some experience of bending SOPs in a safe way, but missing out the majority of SOPs means I risk losing my 'flow' and awareness.
I guess most pilots have been here before. It's just hard working out what's alright, and what's not, what's foolhardy and what's the art of flying. For example, you mention some things about odd flap operations which, although not SOP, may work very well, but taxiing so far off the centre line round a corner that I wince - expecting the main gear to hit the inside taxi way lights is poor airmanship and not something I want to learn to do. (I used to drie 30ft lorries...)
The very fact that I am inexperienced means that SOPs are important to me because they are all I know at the moment. I made the tranistion to a jet from feather-light piston single and know it is a big step. I just want to operate the jet as best I can. I prefer not to be sat on the right sweating about whether the Captain knows what he's dong.
I know ultimately its all about experience and so far I have had some experience of bending SOPs in a safe way, but missing out the majority of SOPs means I risk losing my 'flow' and awareness.
I guess most pilots have been here before. It's just hard working out what's alright, and what's not, what's foolhardy and what's the art of flying. For example, you mention some things about odd flap operations which, although not SOP, may work very well, but taxiing so far off the centre line round a corner that I wince - expecting the main gear to hit the inside taxi way lights is poor airmanship and not something I want to learn to do. (I used to drie 30ft lorries...)
Last edited by Mungo Man; 3rd Jul 2007 at 22:22.
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BelArgo
You sound like a real pain in the a**e - exactly the example that the newcomers in the business try to avoid - with good reason.
Try reading your posts with their perspective in mind. I have no doubt that you have a lot of knowledge to impart, but you come across as a class 1 pra**
B744 Captain
You sound like a real pain in the a**e - exactly the example that the newcomers in the business try to avoid - with good reason.
Try reading your posts with their perspective in mind. I have no doubt that you have a lot of knowledge to impart, but you come across as a class 1 pra**
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Old days and today
Gentlemen -
xxx
Agree with a few of your points.
I also had to survive these DC-6/7 drivers who were trying to figure how to fly a 727, and in the 707, I saw navigators arguing with captains about headings.
But on layovers, we solved it all while having a beer together and debriefing.
xxx
I was lucky also to start my career as flight engineer, as it became common in the USA in the 1960s and 1970s, and judge captains and co-pilots, this was a lot of help to prepare me to be a co-pilot, and later a captain. With a flight deck crew of 3, it was often a democracy and excellent teamwork.
xxx
Nowadays, pilots start their careers with short sectors, never a layover to have that beer with their captain and discuss the issues of the flight, they just say goodbye and go home. A cockpit crew of 2, who do you think will always be right...?
xxx
I am fortunate to fly now with a South American airline, where the old traditions are still observed as it was 30 or more years ago. Was no problem to blend into their airline culture. CRM is never an issue here, it is a classroom subject where everyone is sleeping. In airlines, you are either born to CRM concepts, and if you dont, you will never adopt the CRM culture, no matter what.
xxx
I have sympathy for the new generation of pilots who start a career today, as I see how much they have to face, in expenses and competitiveness with much less respect for their position by their employers, and this often for miserable salaries. Where are PanAm, TWA, Eastern, Braniff, Sabena, Swissair and VASP...? Is your airline next to join that list...? Will you be forced to expatriate yourself, at age 40, to start all over, or change career, like I have known many to do who were pilots with these air carriers...?
xxx
Happy contrails, anyway
xxx
Agree with a few of your points.
I also had to survive these DC-6/7 drivers who were trying to figure how to fly a 727, and in the 707, I saw navigators arguing with captains about headings.
But on layovers, we solved it all while having a beer together and debriefing.
xxx
I was lucky also to start my career as flight engineer, as it became common in the USA in the 1960s and 1970s, and judge captains and co-pilots, this was a lot of help to prepare me to be a co-pilot, and later a captain. With a flight deck crew of 3, it was often a democracy and excellent teamwork.
xxx
Nowadays, pilots start their careers with short sectors, never a layover to have that beer with their captain and discuss the issues of the flight, they just say goodbye and go home. A cockpit crew of 2, who do you think will always be right...?
xxx
I am fortunate to fly now with a South American airline, where the old traditions are still observed as it was 30 or more years ago. Was no problem to blend into their airline culture. CRM is never an issue here, it is a classroom subject where everyone is sleeping. In airlines, you are either born to CRM concepts, and if you dont, you will never adopt the CRM culture, no matter what.
xxx
I have sympathy for the new generation of pilots who start a career today, as I see how much they have to face, in expenses and competitiveness with much less respect for their position by their employers, and this often for miserable salaries. Where are PanAm, TWA, Eastern, Braniff, Sabena, Swissair and VASP...? Is your airline next to join that list...? Will you be forced to expatriate yourself, at age 40, to start all over, or change career, like I have known many to do who were pilots with these air carriers...?
xxx
Happy contrails, anyway
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Let me start by making a clear differentiation between SOP and Techniques. Whether we like it or not SOP’s are company mandated and aviation’s authority (FAA, JAA, etc.) sanctioned. Techniques, on the other hand, are a set of tools that allow us to operate within a given safety envelope. There are as many flying techniques as there are pilots, but the common thread should be SOP’s.
When a pilot operates an aircraft contrary to SOP’s he or she is reducing the safety margin by keeping the other crew member "outside the loop." Furthermore, non-SOP operations expose the crew members and the company to liability claims in the event of a mishap.
Mungo Man, I would tell that captain something like this: "Sir, with all due respect, I ‘m having a hard time following your procedures. Has the company change them recently? I cannot find them in my book." Maybe he will get the message.
As a captain, I maintain a clear communications channel with my first officers. In my airline there are FO’s with very diverse backgrounds and experience levels, and I recognize that adherence to SOP’s is imperative to the safe conclusion of every flight. That’s what being a professional aviator is about.
P
When a pilot operates an aircraft contrary to SOP’s he or she is reducing the safety margin by keeping the other crew member "outside the loop." Furthermore, non-SOP operations expose the crew members and the company to liability claims in the event of a mishap.
Mungo Man, I would tell that captain something like this: "Sir, with all due respect, I ‘m having a hard time following your procedures. Has the company change them recently? I cannot find them in my book." Maybe he will get the message.
As a captain, I maintain a clear communications channel with my first officers. In my airline there are FO’s with very diverse backgrounds and experience levels, and I recognize that adherence to SOP’s is imperative to the safe conclusion of every flight. That’s what being a professional aviator is about.
P
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If you file an ASR then you force an investigation into the matter.
Personally, if I felt that concerned, I'd cut and paste your comments in an email to the CP or Base Captain.
Not sure if you have flydress at your company, but if it flags up that you are unstable on approach and you've done nothing as an FO to bring this to attention, it'll be your @rse on the line as well as the Skipper's.
Forget the fact that this guy is experienced and close to retirement. If he is genuinely affecting safety and going outside of SOP's, it should be brought to the relevant people's attention.
Personally, if I felt that concerned, I'd cut and paste your comments in an email to the CP or Base Captain.
Not sure if you have flydress at your company, but if it flags up that you are unstable on approach and you've done nothing as an FO to bring this to attention, it'll be your @rse on the line as well as the Skipper's.
Forget the fact that this guy is experienced and close to retirement. If he is genuinely affecting safety and going outside of SOP's, it should be brought to the relevant people's attention.
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Mungo,
First things first - you are in the right. He didn't invent aviation, the guy is essentially a bully. A flight deck environment, if it goes unchecked, is fertile ground for them. In my experience you've got two options. Will you fly with him again? If you're looking at once a year or so, I'd forget it - otherwise, if you've got a decent chance of hitting this guy on your roster, give him some slack, make sure he's not just making an honest mistake or two. If you're left in no doubt, stand up to him - I promise you he'll start treating you with some respect.
First things first - you are in the right. He didn't invent aviation, the guy is essentially a bully. A flight deck environment, if it goes unchecked, is fertile ground for them. In my experience you've got two options. Will you fly with him again? If you're looking at once a year or so, I'd forget it - otherwise, if you've got a decent chance of hitting this guy on your roster, give him some slack, make sure he's not just making an honest mistake or two. If you're left in no doubt, stand up to him - I promise you he'll start treating you with some respect.
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If you file an ASR then you force an investigation into the matter.
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Well it is very interesting how many pilots assume that this new FO is completely right, for all we know he may be totally inept, having less than 500 hours on an airplane is completely normal nowadays (but knows the SOP's backward and forward). Mungo, just try and get a bit of experience before you try to turn into an expert at how unsafe up the other crew member is, you may end up learning something from him.
In my company SOPs are not optional as they have been proven to help deliver safe, efficent and confident operations. Obviously not all eventualities can be covered so good judgement and professionalism is encouraged, but the development of indivualised procesdures is not.
He is on my schedule again and I will play it by ear when I fly with him next. But frankly his attitude comes over as lax and bored compared to other Captains who take much more pride & interest in the flight. What's to be learnt from watching the skipper engage the automatics at minimum height, slide his seat back, arm rests down and get the paper out?
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by MungoMan
I prefer not to be sat on the right sweating about whether the Captain knows what he's dong.
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****What's to be learnt from watching the skipper engage the automatics at minimum height, slide his seat back, arm rests down and get the paper out?****
Sounds like a guy very bored with his job.
Next time he puts the gear up without you asking why not just ask for gear up anyway and see what he says or does?
Sounds like a guy very bored with his job.
Next time he puts the gear up without you asking why not just ask for gear up anyway and see what he says or does?
