I agreed with Beazle; no he's saying you need to be flexible. Not have this mentaility a Fatpl = airline opportunity. You have to be prepared to take any road there as not all are open for everybody.

S88,
No I don't think for a moment that is what beazlebub is saying. I think he's telling you that if that's what you want, integrated may offer you the best chance of achieving that off the bat. What (s)he's telling you is that if you go the modular route, you may have to spend some years building time by bush flying or para dropping until you become "validated" for airline employment by your total time. In short I think you're being told " do not expect to come out and find that you have exactly the same opportunities as an integrated student. Thats not saying your opportunities will be better or worse, nut recognise they will be different. If you recognise this up front, then you have a better chance of not being crestfallen with your choice downstream- whatever choice you made.

I think Clanger pulls it together well there. Sometimes I read Bealzebubs comments and wonder if he's affiliated in any way with an integrated scheme (I'm sure that's not the case however). Tempered with Clangers response I think overall it's quite balanced.

I have to re-stress that in my view integrated training is a risk only worth taking when it's subject to prior selection for a cadet scheme (whether that's Flybe/Thomas Cook as now, Netjets of old etc). That is a subtle difference though I think in agreement with what Bealzebub says. The rich kids can take their chances, but I can't respect them and it's their sort competing against one another to pay for TR, line training and hours on line after non competitive selection that are bringing the industry down for all.

@Bealzebub,

Brilliant argument and on the whole I agree, if all people want to achieve in life is to fly for an airline as quickly as possible and make a quick return then I would probably suggest Integrated route to them if they had the money. Furthermore, the older a candidate is I would recommend Integrated because they don't have as much time on their hands.

For me, firstly I had time on my hands being 21 at the moment. Secondly, the fun I had during my training (especially hour building) I wouldn't change for the world - something the integrated boys never experience (I'm sure there are some who have however but it is more regimented training). Thirdly, I always wanted more: In terms of flying, I always new that I wanted to Instruct for a good few years first because I love teaching. Therefore Integrated would have been of no benefit to me. (The Flight School I instruct at btw has just lost four instructors to BMI regional, all of whom were year above me on my degree on modular training and the Cabair integrated applicants I know with first time passes that arn't FI's gor rejected - goes to show). Finally, I have always wanted more than just flying as well: I would like to go into Management, maybe push for CEO in the future. This is why I came to Cranfield to do my MSc in ATM. If nothing else, it's nice to have a back up and not solely be qualified to fly.

Maybe you're right, not EVERYONE will make it! But, air travel is forecasted to double by 2020 (don't mention the F word, had a nightmare finishing my Forecasting module last week), and things are looking up. I'm most certainly in no rush.

In sum, I think that there are horses for courses. Both have pros and cons. Just be aware of what your getting into!

Christian A said:That would be a good argument if it were true that integrated training is faster. However the opposite is true. Going integrated, you go at ONE pace. Going modular, you go at YOUR pace, which CAN be much faster.

What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less.

pilotmike:
I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated. Because doing the integrated one is basically a full time school. You have no time for work etc...

Johnny Bekkestad:Whether you agree or not, the fact is training modular can be done more quickly than integrated.

Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course, which proves my point. Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call.

Pilotmike
I did ppl in 30 days, multi engine in 12 days, instrument rating 40 days, 100 hours time building in 14 days as i flew across the US twice and i did my cpl in 10 days. I did everything on minimums while getting a degree in aviation science.

Hey, put your 'Johnny' away, this isn't a willy-waving contest.

I simply dispute bold yet false assertions that 'integrated is faster than modular', which you support with your comment 'I do not agree that going YOUR pace will make you go faster than a integrated'.

Your argument is gloriously muddled, especially given your claim to have gone from ab initio to CPL/IR in just 106 days!!

Well done! Without doubt you are the biggest Johnny, but with such bold claims you've spectacularly lost your own argument that integrated is faster - exactly proving my point...!:ugh:

@Johnny: @Embry Riddle I suppose? You did your training very fast for what I've read. But how did you do the theory then??

my point was that most people i know, do modular courses at slow pace, so that they can work at the same time. I know guys working on their PPL for a year...
Then you say "Going MY pace, I completed modular training in 8 months, which is much faster than any integrated course" and where i am right now, you are expected to do ppl-cfi in less than 8 months so i do not agree with your statement... Nor did i mean to do a willy-waving contest, but you asked what i could do "Whether YOU could achieve the same is entirely down to you. Your call" and i provided you with what you asked for.

captain.weird: No its not embry, i did my FAA written at my own pace. With that i mean that i was done with my FAA ppl checkride before i was done with the ground school etc...

Modular doesn't mean you have to work whilst training.

You both (Pilotmike & Johnny) have admirably demonstrated that 'full time' modular training can be done quicker (a lot quicker if you put your mind to it) than integrated courses. Obviously it can take a lot longer if you work at the same time.

But either way, it just goes to show the flexibility that modular training offers and being able to go as quickly or as slowly as you need.

Willy waving or not! Congratulations and well done to you both for completing your training at break neck speed!!

BTW - any luck with securing employment?

Pilotmike

"What you have overlooked is that all your arguments about the speed of return on investment clearly favour modular, both for the speed of training, and the fact that it will cost considerably less".

It seems as though you are arguing with everone for the sake of arguing! If you read what I wrote you would see that I agree with you and generally favour modular, although there are pros and cons for both, I was simply trying to present a balanced argument. You are right, it is considerably cheaper to do modular, and I too, like you, completed my JAA training in a similar time frame of about 10 months.

The general thesis of my argument was actually nothing to do with ROI etc. What I was saying was that for me, modualar was better because I want a lot more than just flying. But both have pros and cos!!

Christian A:No, I'm not arguing with everybody, just with you and Johnny Bekkestad, who try to pursuade an impressionable audience that an integrated course is the fastest way to train.

Both of you then prove your argument to be completely flawed by later admitting to have done exactly the opposite of what they profess - training faster than an integrated course by going modular.

Is the irony completely lost on you?

For you to now claim that your argument was not primarily about speed of training or rate of return on investment is disingenuous. Perhaps you ought to remind yourself by re-read your opening sentence in which you clearly cite both reasons in your recommendation of an integrated course:
I feel the readers of this thread deserve better, a more truthful perspective, which is why I stepped in to address both of you and your incorrect statements that integrated is the fastest way to train.

Pilotmike,
But whilst I absolutely applaud and agree with your statement about ensuring people get the best information from this thread, your statement itself is disingenuous.

Whilst I would perfectly accept that it is possible to train quicker than an integrated course, I would argue (Strongly) that those of you such as yourself, Johnny and Christian who have gone from 0-fATPL in LESS than an integrated course timescale are truly exceptional and not the rule.

This can be validated by the fact that full time ground school anywhere takes 6 months. Therefore anyone who can condense a PPL, 150 hours P1, night rating, MEP, CPL, IR, MCC and ATPL theory into 8 months should be applauded, but recognised as significantly above average. I think there's also an argument there (which I won't go in to) that anyone that has done this can not REALLY have learned the ATPL theory and quite possibly has overlooked key skills in the flying training.

As I say, I'm sure it CAN be done quicker than your fifteen month integrated course, but the truthful statement is PROBABLY that integrated will get most people to fATPL quicker than modular. To say otherwise is extremely disingenuous.

Oh dear, clanger.....

Re-read my words... and I even CAPITALISED them to help you:
Note - I said CAN be, not WILL be. Don't try to make an argument where there isn't one.
And now you're accusing me of being disingenuous, for saying exactly what you are now repeating.:ugh:

The rest of your potentially libellous comments are deprecated.

coming back to Uk
 

I have completed ppl training in San Diego(sdfi) have 150 hours flying and want to come back to Uk to continue the modular track leading to a frozen atpl. My questions are these, I would be based in Bournemouth , is BFCT a good ground school? I see that I needs night rating , could I do this in Uk while I am attending ground school? Or should I do this in the States before I leave? thanks

Dally,

In my completly biased view (before Mike starts attacking everyone) is go to EPTA for the ground school round the otherside of the field and do your night rating at BFCT because it is cheaper than Cabair in a couple of nights during ATPL's. That's what I did and loved both, but obviously everyone will have different opinions.

Mike,

No, I wasn't "trying to pursuade an impressionable audience that an integrated course is the fastest way to train" because it is obviously not always true as in mine and your case. And yes, i stand by my opening statement that you very kindly re-posted, I would still tell someone asking for advise to go Integrated if all they wanted to do was fly for an airline because GENERALLY, it is quicker and leads to quicker employment.

In fear of repeating myself, but it feels that I have to for peope like you, both have advantages and disadvantages but for me and my situation, modular was the right route!

Integrated courses are like M&S ready meals. Great quality, very tasty, and they will fill your belly. They are expensive but you pay for the convenience. Some people prefer Tesco's value range Chilli-con-carne. These aren't so good and can lead to an extended visit to the toilet. Generally ready meals can be cooked and eaten quickly. :uhoh:

Modular courses are akin to buying the ingredients and following a recipe. You can prepare a delicious Delia Smith meal using organic produce from the local Farm Shop but that takes ages. Many people visit their local supermarket and then cook an excellent Jamie Oliver 30 min special. Of course, some people can't be bothered and have cheese on toast.:p

The point is that a motivated and dedicated person can achieve the same end point in a similar time regardless of which route they take. Very organised people can even take the fun out of the process in order to get there even sooner, but that is a personal choice born out of ruthless practical necessity. Here's looking at you PilotMike :ok:

In my opinion, whether you choose integrated or modular you need to be very sure that your microwave or hob works and that you have found some cutlery with which to eat the 'fruits' of your hard work. You also need a back up packet of Walkers Ready Salted in case you overcook the chicken chasseur or your flan fails to rise.

In other words, however you train, don't do it unless you are prepared for things to go pear-shaped. You probably won't get a job for a year or two because that is the reality of recruitment 2007-2011 - don't assume you will be one of the lucky ones - and you need to factor this into your finances.

Networking, couchsurfing and frugal tactics
 

I've been scanning through the thread and I feel I may keep it bumped and current by adding my own £0.02p, mods feel free to strike down your wrath upon my post if it has already been covered, and my sincere apologies to any time, space and bandwidth I've wasted! you too reader!

About hours building, have any of you considered networking? I'm a 10hr PPL study, not even licensed yet and I've been making great connections in America as well as home! a lot of hobby pilots, farmers and charity pilots welcome their very own amateur FO for their exploits, young and old a lot of established pilots are not looking, but are welcoming for someone to sit in the seat less sat! :)

Some of the guys I've been speaking to said they'd love someone to split the fuel with them on a few runs and would welcome an air buddy to come practice with them! not to sound like a deviant but upon reading another thread a few nights ago and learning about the whole hours building lark I went and did a little snooping and found I was saving a packet flying with these lovely guys and girls! hell I don't even care if the hours don't count! I'm not too clear on that yet but grabbing air is grabbing air, logbooks be damned!

To save on accomodation where I plan to visit I'm making fantastic connections with people willing to let me surf their couch! most are for free but some require a little elbow grease... better than $45+ a night right? :)

The books I'm using right now to study JAA/FAA ATPL were bought off fleabay for a staggering £30, a fraction of the original cost from what I've seen! they are a little ragged and dogged with notes scribbled along the borders (that are actually proving useful) but the seller was kind enough to include a few blank practice exams with a kind note telling me to photocopy them and wishing me good luck! :ok:

There are savings to be made! it's just putting yourself out there and having a little faith in your fellow man! there are plenty of decent guys and girls out there willing to lend you a hand, but they can't come find you! you have to find them! :)

and hey, if I'm wrong, atleast I'll make the news right? :} here's hoping I don't have to put the lotion on the skin lest I get the hose again!

So some good posts since I last looked in.

For the hard of reading, what I and several other sensible posters were alluding to, is that you [by which I mean "the general reader looking for advice as to how/where to start" - not any specific individual] CAN cut down on the standard 15 months of an integrated course by going at your own pace. Of course you can. However, I would think it very foolish to base any planning around being ABLE to do so. Integrated courses are approx 15 months from start to finish. This is not because the schools have a vested interest in keeping you there longer - in fact in pure business terms, it's MORE in their interests to get rid of you sooner. It's because HISTORY SHOWS THAT'S HOW LONG IT TAKES A NOMINALLY ABLE PERSON TO COMPLETE THE TRAINING SATISFACTORILY.

You - dear reader- may of course be one of those that just finds it really easy and breezes through and in so doing could complete in 8/9 or 10 months. Equally, you could be one of those who REALLY struggles with non precision approaches, or just can't get PFLs right. YOU could be the one who needs 18/19 or 20 months.

The point is I would question the sanity of anyone who without prior indication that they could do it quicker than a normal full time course of study, planned for completing in less than 15 months. Plan for 15 months full time and take it as a considerable bonus if you can complete earlier.

As ANYONE that has trodden the weary path to CPL/ME/IR will tell you, there is a LOT of very hard work ahead of you when you set out. Much of it does not and will not sink in "straight away" - both the flying aspects and certainly the ground school.

This is why *I* think it's probably unwise to be trying to learn what the industry experts (by which I mean just about everyone that offers full time ATPL learning as a course) reckon will take six months of VERY hard graft at the same time as trying to learn to fly a plane. This is why *I* would be very dubious indeed of anyone who said that they'd gone from 0-(f)ATPL in only 8 months.

The simily with cooking is actually quite good. The only additional point I'd make is that all should remember that Gordon Ramsey can probably whip up a gourmet delight in a fraction of the time most of us could whip up bangers and mash....a lot depends on your ability.

Mod or integrated, the best advice you can get is it's about what works for YOU. Just be very sure at the outset that you FULLY understand ALL of the implications of whatever route you tread.

Ha ha ha. No, mate, you don't have to make a decision so soon. You could get some life experience, save some money and then commit yourself to a flying career.

Jambone,

You have time on your side. ;) Which is a good thing. The question only you can answer is what sort of career do you want?

Do you want to go straight from full time flying school straight to a RHS of a jet but potentially with a massive debt and a contract that is more like indentured servitude? (see the easyJet MPL thread...)
One of my colleagues was a BA cadet, did 13 years with them and was bored silly. He went to GA.

Or do you want the opportunity to do "other" things with your flying before pitching up to the airline offer (if ever?)?

Whichever one you decide, work hard at getting the best A levels you can, do some team sport stuff (good for leadership and working in a team etc).
Then get a job for at least a year. Do any thing that earns money. This will teach you the value of labour for pay. This will help you realise when employers are taking the p!ss, a very useful skill to have in the aviation industry.

I'll hold my hand up and say I am a bizjet pilot and love it. ;)

Interesting.
Have you thought about what sort of work you'll be doing in order to pay for the flight training? It's not cheap in case you haven't noticed.
Going modular will take a few years if money is in short supply. (I am assuming it will be - ie no money from the Bank of Mum and Dad)

You realise that the IR needs renewing as well? So I am curious as to your plan to go to uni post flight training. As you know, uni isn't cheap either.

At the moment and possibly for the next couple of years, a full time course seems to be the "only way in" to the 2 airlines that have been recruiting low houred pilots. (Namely Ryanair and easyJet) This may change, but no one knows when. Bizjets rarely take low houred pilots unless you know someone and have another skill to bring to the party.

For the time being, focus on getting good A levels and saving as much cash as possible. By the time you are ready to begin flight training, the market may have changed.

Sounds feasible. :ok: As usual, before spending a penny, check you're not colourblind or have diabetes etc.
In 2 years time, things hopefully will be on the rise for low houred pilots but you seem to have a plan there.
Earn some money and work hard on those A levels in the mean time. :ok:

Learning
 

I am a seventeen year old Jewish boy who is religious. This means I can't work on Friday afternoons and Saturday. Is it possible for me to become a commercial pilot with an established airline.

Thanks

Hey!
 

I've done a little looking around for you and didn't turn up anything substantial, I imagine it's hard seeing as pilots have rough hours and I know the Shabbat doesn't allow jewish people to work, drive, and in some terms even cook, so if you were following your religion to the letter I'd guess your options as a CPL would be things like flight instruction where you could just not work on those days. Now that I think about it, Israir must have a fair few non-jewish pilots to be able to operate all week round and would probably be your best bet in terms of employment with an airline, I've tried looking for a careers page but didn't turn up anything, it seems they have no job openings at the moment, but it might be worth emailing them and asking them the T&C's of their pilot jobs as a jewish pilot and whether they are cool with it

Google Translate

Israir Airlines & Tourism Ltd.: Private Company Information - BusinessWeek

modular expenses
 

Airberlin2010 can i ask where you did your modular building?
30000 seems cheap and money is a bit tight at the moment... thanks

HEP
 

i i have just read your very interesting feed about the costs you incurred in training, can i enquire what you thought about the CATS online course? How did you find it? I also see that you have done training just about everywhere, do you have any advice for me, basically i have got my ppl and need to get my atpls done asap so this is my focus at the moment, problem is money as always and i am based in cardiff?

Any help/advice would be very much appreciated

Distance learning is usually the cheapest option for ATPL ground school.

There's a new ATPL distance learning ground school called ProPilot. It was at the Flyer show and has all the ATPL manuals on an i-pad. There's an introductory offer on at the mo. It's another option for anyone considering the modular route.

Hi i really want to do one of these courses. Im now looking at getting my PPL ad have seen some places in essex/london areas but does anyone the best cheapest place to get my license? Also could someone explain to me what the difference is between modular and integrated?

Do i need good exam results to do any courses to become a commercial pilot? I was expected to get good results but i didnt do too well in the exams and was wondering will that effect my dream of becoming a pilot? If so does anybody know how and where i can redo my exams?

Thanks in Advance

Im so confused with all of this. :O

Can somebody tell me what the pilot ratings are and how you get them and what different ratings there are?

Ive searched all over the internet but cant find anything.

...oh boy

Well the first thing you need to understand is the difference between a licence and a rating.

Licenses:
NPPL
PPL
CPL
ATPL

Ratings:
SEP
Night
MEP
Twin
IR
Type Ratings eg (Dash 8, B373 etc)
Others include: tailwheel, seaplane

To fly you need a licence + a rating ie when you initially fly privately you have a PPL + SEP.

To get a job in the RHS you generally need what is called a frozen ATPL which consists (from zero hours);

Modular: PPL + Night + ATPL ground exams + CPL + Twin + IR + MCC (Multi-crew course)
Integrated: All of the above training thrown in together to get an f/ATPL

There are various hours requirements at each stage as well as a 300 nm cross country flight to get issued with your CPL.

Modular schools will sell you the individual bits, Integrated schools the whole shabang.

There is also the MPL but that is only airline sponsored, I believe

Best starting point...
 

Hello all,

I've been reading this forum with great interest for the last few months and i apologise if this topic has come up before..(which I am sure it has somewhere)

I am starting the modular route this September beginning with the humble PPL. I was just wondering if anyone can give some advice on the best way to do this..it seems a popular option to go to the US to do it in 4 weeks (having done the ground exams beforehand) but my online research doesn't show a massive saving in cost compared to the UK when you take account of return airfares, living costs etc...

Am I missing something? Is there a flight school that offers a competitive deal?

I'm looking at around £6,500 for the course here in Scotland. (45 hrs)

Regards,

Rupert, I do believe that if you do everything in the U.S. and then you convert the FAA ratings and licences to JAA it will be cheaper.
Bristol Fligh Centre has good prices to convert the FAA licences to UK CAA/JAA.

Some schools have their homes where you can stay for the lenght of your training. Just give a look around.

Rupert,

I did my PPL in the US. The main advantage is that if you set out to get your PPL in 4 weeks and choose somewhere with good weather, you can do it. In the UK if you are unlucky with weather it can take much longer. The main disadvantage is that when you get back you have to get used to UK airspace, radio, etc which takes a little while.

On the cost side, I'm not sure if there are still cost savings to be made so when you are doing the comparison make sure to add in the extras like accomodation, books, exam fees, visas, and conversion / signoff costs (see below)...

In some places in the US you get a CAA (UK) PPL but there is less demand so fewer schools to choose from.

If you get an FAA PPL you have many more choices of where to learn. Currently you can fly in the UK on an FAA PPL. You'll need a few hours of dual time to rent privately so take this into account when calculating your costs. If you plan to fly on your FAA PPL you will also need to get a radio licence: in the US there isn't any separate radio licence (it's part of the PPL) but in the UK you need a separate document. You can get a standalone UK radio licence or get a document issued by the (US) FCC. (Both will involve extra costs.) When the EASA (EU) rules come into place I don't think it will be possible to fly on an FAA PPL any more (I don't claim to be expert on this so others on the forum should correct me if needed).

If you get an FAA PPL and plan to convert, there are different processes depending on how many hours you have. If you convert with less than 100 hours of flying time, you will need to sit all 7 UK PPL theory exams as well as do the checkride. If you have more than 100 hours, you only need to sit 3 exams and do the checkride.

I hope that helps.

Thanks very much for your info, much appreciated.

At the moment the best flight school I can find is European Flight Training (EFT) based in Fort Pierce, Florida. They offer a good sounding sounding package including the JAA PPL, Radiotelephony course, Night Rating along with 21 days accommodation (the duration of the course)

I am currently getting a few hours logged with the hope of going over and getting my PPL in the minimum time, here's hoping!

EFT seem a reputable school but would be grateful if anyone has any comments or past experiences there.

I plan to head out in October to complete the PPL so I'll be sure to provide anyone with info regarding the school etc...

Regards,

He cracks me up :ugh::p

ask your dady for t/r and XXXX hours of line training, and PAY TO WORK until the airline kick you out for the next idiot who believe he will get a paid job!

YOU HAVE JUST INSPIRED ME (op).

:D:D:D:D