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Originally Posted by Smitty06
(Post 11546022)
Central Flight Training based in the midlands (somewhat local, very drivable distance), doing PPL (Training+10 PIC) ~£5845 -> 60 Hours building (Min for MEP on their website) to 70hrs total -> MEP (6 hours) £3,985.00 -> MEIR (50 hours) £17,000.00 -> 25 Hours (build 125-150) -> Start CPL(A) 25 hours £8,738.00 -> 25 hours (build 175->200 total) -> UPRT £1,800.00+ APS MCC £4,995 else where. Roughly doing about 120 hours of time building at £142/h for £17,000 Using rough figures total about 60k.
Stapleford's in Essex, Same pattern PPL into ME/CBIR before CPL, theirs comes in at about £46,000, again adding on UPRT+APSMCC for another £7,000, Rough total of £53,000 |
Originally Posted by rudestuff
(Post 11546111)
I give up.
Guessing then it should have been PPL-> Nigh Rating ->SE IR -> MEP -> Upgrade to MEIR/CBIR (with least ME hours possible) -> CPL? In terms of hours, am I incorrect in there is a requirment of 150 hours to start a CPL(A) class?, which gives another 25 hours & to get sign off you need 200 hours total PIC? |
Originally Posted by Smitty06
(Post 11546132)
Applogies for not understanding. I think I missed the mark on doing as little ME hours as possible? Also unsure how the conversion between a SE IR -> MEIR or CBIR works? I've seen a few job adds specifically stating you need MEIR.
Guessing then it should have been PPL-> Nigh Rating ->SE IR -> MEP -> Upgrade to MEIR/CBIR (with least ME hours possible) -> CPL? In terms of hours, am I incorrect in there is a requirment of 150 hours to start a CPL(A) class?, which gives another 25 hours & to get sign off you need 200 hours total PIC? In a nutshell the best way to save money is to do as few Sim and multi hours as possible - because sim hours are generally unnecessary and multi hours are expensive. The CPL has the highest hour requirement (200) so it makes sense to do that last and finish with 200 hours. Why anyone would get 200 hours then pay another £15k on top of that for 15 MEP hours and 35 Sim hours is beyond me. 10 hours is common to both the CPL and IR, meaning if you get your IR first your CPL is only a 15 hour course. You can do your CPL in a multi OR you can get your MEP and do your CPL in a single (in any order) you don't need to do both. The PIC requirements are 50 for IR, 70 for your MEP and 100 for your CPL. There are about 7 or 8 different ways to get an IR but the cheapest is (one of) the CBIR routes: IRR then CBIR. Its 15 hours dual, 15 hours PIC then either 10 hours dual in a single engine or 15 hours multi. To get an initial IR in a multi requires 15 hours, to convert an SEIR to MEIR only requires 2. Savings can be from 0-13 hours depending on ability. An IR can be done partly using Sim hours. Sim hours don't count to your CPL. You'll be amazed how many people pay £150 per hour for 200 hours airplane rental then pay £150 per hour to spend 35 hours simulating what they could have done for free during their hour building (ok, technically free + instructor cost.) Another way to look at it: Lets say your school offers IRR training for £210 and hour building for £150. An IRR+CBIR will cost you (210×15)+(150×15)+(210×10) = £6750. That's already pretty cheap but now consider that you were going to pay £6000 to fly those hours anyway - you just got an IR for less than a grand in instructors fees. Compared to the most expensive option of CPL then IR you're effectively writing off training cost against hour building. |
so after the IRR/CBIR, you hold an Instrument Rating, right? And once you've done the MEP and then the CPL, do you then have to do an MEIR, or is that just an abbreviation for both the MEP and IR ratings that you wouldve already done? Airlines want a MEIR and CPL so just checking. Chees rudestuff.
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rudestuff Thank you for the further explaination. Really appricate you taking the time to expand & clarify it for me.
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Originally Posted by WindyTurtle
(Post 11546421)
so after the IRR/CBIR, you hold an Instrument Rating, right? And once you've done the MEP and then the CPL, do you then have to do an MEIR, or is that just an abbreviation for both the MEP and IR ratings that you wouldve already done? Airlines want a MEIR and CPL so just checking. Chees rudestuff.
From what I gather / I’m doing Yes the IRR + CBIR = SEIR MEP is the same as SEP just a class SEIR - MEIR conversion course, 5hrs min of which 3 can be FNPT. CPL Single engine UPRT & APS/MCC (VA is recommended through wings alliance) to finish off Order is your choice, I aim to leave multi stuff to the end so I’m proficient but it’s entirely up to you If you want to learn more / help understanding the CAA website -> pilot licenses is a good place to look. Some schools will say it’s not recommended or it’ll cost you more. Don’t be deterred, on a CV you’ll have more IFR hours, demonstrate greater ability as single pilot ifr is no walk in the park, and you will stand out as you’ll have more to talk about in a interview! At least that is my thinking. |
Originally Posted by WindyTurtle
(Post 11546421)
so after the IRR/CBIR, you hold an Instrument Rating, right? And once you've done the MEP and then the CPL, do you then have to do an MEIR, or is that just an abbreviation for both the MEP and IR ratings that you wouldve already done? Airlines want a MEIR and CPL so just checking. Chees rudestuff.
Your PPL and its' SEP class rating allows you to fly SEP, getting an SEIR allows you to fly it in IMC. You'll need a separate MEP rating to fly MEPs before you can get your MEIR, so its 4 tests. You can do 3 flight tests if you go straight to MEIR without doing SEIR, or if you combine the CPL and MEP and do the MEIR last (the traditional route). Neither of those would make sense. Also understand that the PPL and CPL are licences, everything else is a rating. If you get your MEP after your PPL then you can do your CPL test in an SEP and your MEP rating will be transferred onto it. To keep your total hours at 200 you need to do the CPL last, since you'll already have done the MEP and MEIR you'll only need to do a 15 hour single engine CPL course. There are many ways to end up with a CPL and MEIR, but in my opinion PPL, NIGHT, IRR, SECBIR, MEP, MEIR, SECPL is the optimum order if your primary concern is cost. Breakdown is 200 hours, 76 Dual, 100 PIC and 24 hours in your back pocket for going over minimums. |
Overlooked the CPL MEP link, SE CPL at the end it is, thanks rude stuff.
Any recommendations for ATOs? blackbushe, British aerobatics and stapleford are on the list. |
Good morning everyone,
Apologies if this has been addressed previously and feel free to post instructions of where this is located. I'm looking at modular training and tossing up between EASA and UK-CAA, not both. I have a UK passport and full living and working rights in only one EU country. Getting a flying job in said EU country wouldn't likely be possible due to the lack of knowledge of the local language. I have asked around, including some CFI's from flying schools in both EASA and UK-CAA but I guess people are reluctant to say too much. I'm just looking for some advice, nothing more. Thank you in advance for anything shared. |
UK citizens have the right to live and work in Ireland. I guess you are not talking about there as you presumably speak English.
What's the other country? If it's Poland (your location), then LOT previously took on non-Polish speaking pilots (no idea now). Ryanair is obviously a big employer there too - though I think not having the unrestricted right to work in the EU might be an issue for them The issue with asking people is that nobody truly knows and nobody would sensibly want to limit your opportunities. Is there any reason you don't want to go dual? The additional costs and difficulty are relatively small. Going modular, the start of the path makes no difference. Both a UK or an EASA PPL can take you on either (or both) path. Then, for the ATPL exams, do it at somewhere dual approved like BGS. The syllabus is the same and the exams are very similar. You can sit both UK and EASA exams there too. That makes it much easier as you sit the same subjects at the same time - i.e. you only study each subject once. Additional cost is about £1k so far. Form that point, you can decide on which way to go (or whether to do both). You've left the door open and are a lot closer to actually getting a job so will likely be in a much better place to decide. |
Limiting yourself to one or the other is not the best idea especially when the extra cost would initially be the exam fees. Plenty of reasonable priced schools will give you both licences.
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Originally Posted by rudestuff
(Post 11088485)
The trick to going modular and saving money is to study while you're working. Ideally you would make use of your holiday allowance and get a PPL in 4 weeks, or failing that, two 2 week blocks. That's not as hard as you think if you do it somewhere sunny, and turn up with all the exams passed and nothing to do but fly. You could even take 10 hours over weekends to learn the basics, then do an accelerated course full time.
Once you've got your PPL and night rating, start the ATPL exams. Take your time and study no more than 4 subjects at a time, take the exams then move on. 4/4/3/3 still gives you plenty of options for resits. While you're doing that, get a cheap preferably non-equity share in a 150 or PA38 - something that you can fly for less than £100 an hour. Plan to fly around 50 hours making sure you use the time wisely - learning the area for your CPL and getting plenty of cross country time. You should be half way towards CPL, and you've spent less than £18,000 Once you've passed your final ATPL exam the clock is ticking. You've got 36 months to finish up. Start with a CBIR which should cost around £6-8000. An IRR/IMC costs £2500-3000, so essentially to get an IR via the CBIR route you'll need do that twice with an extra 10-20 hours solo practice. So now you've got a PPL/Night/SEIR 150 hours and you've spent £26,000 With 50 hours left to go, I would assess the industry and see if it's worth getting a multi rating yet. Assuming it's not, I would just hour build for another 35 hours (£3500) and do a 15 hour CPL course (£3500) Total spend? £35,000 once you've paid CAA fees. Now you can get an FI rating if you want to teach (£8000) or for the same money you can get your MEP and MEIR *when the time comes. Of course, if you really want to become a pilot cheaply, have a read of part 61.129 then get yourself a training visa for the US. You can do all of the above for about £20k and come home with over 1000 hours. |
Originally Posted by HeathrowPilot1998
(Post 11560002)
Any advice is greatly appreciated. I'm UK based. |
I am in two minds in what to do with my training. I have aspirations to fly for an airline on a jet eventually, and I am currently weighing up pros and cons of both integrated and modular training. I am lucky enough to be in a position where with a mix of parent funding and finance I can afford both routes. After visiting a few flying schools I was most drawn to L3 and Leading edge, although the recent news on L3 has deterred me slightly. I am now considering a full time modular route which would save me £30,000-£40,000 in training costs and should still be completed in roughly 2 years if all goes to plan. However, I am slightly concerned about job prospects for modular students as I know certain ATO's have holding pools and student can get tagged during training. Does anyone know how much harder it would be to get an airline job with a modular fATPL completed across a handful of flying schools? Would the fact that I would be doing it full time also benefit me as the training would not be over a huge timescale? Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am worried about the prospect of spending £60,000/£70,000 in the modular route and then be much less likely to be hired afterwards. I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere but I cannot find any recent discussion on this in particular. If there is and I have missed it, please send a link as that would also be of great help.
Aviator86444 |
Hi all,
Wondering if someone can help answer a question I haven't seen raised yet. Is it easier to pass CPL and MEIR skills tests if you take go the integrated route? Obviously there are other factors that go into this such as the quality of training, the school, pilot, what kind of hour building that you've done... but in general is it easier to pass if you've learnt to fly doing an Integrated Course? |
Purely from a logical POV, not if you are doing modular full-time. In this case, the benefit of doing an integrated course is that you are doing your training full-time, where you start the next module soon after finishing/passing the previous one. If you are doing modular full-time, then it should be the same. However, if you are spanning your CPL (for example) over a long time (i.e. 1 or 2 hours a week), then yeah, you may find it harder and may need more training, hence costing more.
With the exception of a handful of airlines preferring integrated students, like EasyJet, there really isn't any down-side to doing modular over integrated. Even if you're young and want that 'campus' experience, just do full-time modular all at one school. |
Originally Posted by WindyTurtle
(Post 11622253)
Purely from a logical POV, not if you are doing modular full-time. In this case, the benefit of doing an integrated course is that you are doing your training full-time, where you start the next module soon after finishing/passing the previous one. I
I do not see a lot of benfit in whitetail integrated training. More expensive, less flight hours and no autonomy. Only a cool uniform and brandname. |
Yes, thats a good point that I missed. I agree that modular is really the way to go these days. Even MPLs are sketchy, like all the delays at the Generation EasyJet MPL.
On a side note, there are insurance providers out there, like Steinn Pilot Insurance for UK students, that can provide some form of financial 'safet-net' should you fail to complete training for personal health reasons, though they won't cover you in the downfall of an integrated course! |
You can get the best of both worlds by going modular. Do your first 180 hours anywhere you like - PPL, Night, SEIR and MEP. Then, if you must, go somewhere 'Big' for the last 20 hours MEIR and CPL.
Your CV will read "CPL & MEIR training completed at (Big name) flight training." Keep it simple. If they ask integrated or modular, or where you did your PPL then tell them, but don't offer them anything more than they ask for. |
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