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Easyjet starting to wriggle EZY stoops to new lows, trying to offer flexicrew permanent contracts at low salaries.
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Ex-Cityboy looks Skyward - Help please
Hello all,
Im 26 years old, and have recently resigned from a Headhunting Job in the City. I have harboured and interest in flying from a young age, and went gliding, did ATC etc... Im considering getting becoming an airline pilot, I understand that I can get a loan, but fortunately I have saved up some cash which should cover the cost of training. However, I have heard heard the intergrated vs modular debate and am left a bit torn. A school friend of mine went to CTC and is now at easy jet, he reckons that maybe modular is cheaper, but he thinks that you dont need the added stress of watching you bank balance ebb away when you are taking exams - requiring more landings etc.. Attractions of integration:
So anyone with who has been there and don that, I would be very grateful to hear from you. |
the MAIN difference, imho which no one hardly ever mentions:
Modular means: You have to organize yourself and your training. Need to call instructors, organize your medical appointment yourself, pick the FTO for your PPL yourself, then think...maybe there's a better organisation for multi engine, enquire,............................, and so on. It's work, active work. You have to look out for your ducks to keep them in a row. When will your medical lapse. How many more landings do you need, etc. Integrated is largely (and I don't mean that disrespective): Someone takes you by the hand, maybe gives you a uniform to train in, and literally walks you through the entire training until you're done. They'll make sure you do everything you need to do, have everything you need to have, make sure you know what's needed. It's less do it yourself and less planning for a higher price. I am not endorsing either model, but (and I went modular...) in the end of the day, think about it like this: Would you REALLY (I mean...R E A L L Y!?!) spend 100,000 (that's One Hundred Thousand) to get a license you can get for 50,000?!?!?!? Don't get me wrong, maybe the integrated guy gets a job before I do...but 50,000 excess in cash he doesn't have is plenty to live on until you find a job. |
just to add something to your points mentioned (I guess I am endorsing modular after all :E):
You can go fly abroad as much as you can as an integrated student. Again, more organizing needs to be done by yourself but you can. I agree you'll miss out on the campus life, and you'll mostly study on your own, especially should you take a distance-learning GS course. It'll suck. Integrated is not really faster either. If you have the money, and WANT to get it done ASAP, you can complete your courses modular in roughly the same time. The bonus is, that if you DON'T want to continue at that pace, for whatever reason, you can just stop, or fly just a few hours each month until you're ready to go again. Not really possible with integrated. Once you're in, you'll roughly know when you'll be out. Crap economy or not. In the end of the day, think whether a name such as Oxford, Bristol or whatever is worth twice the price tag. It's like paying $200,000 for a $100,000 Porsche because a Formula One driver will teach you how to drive it instead of a, say WRC driver ;) |
Thanks for that,
Do integrated courses come at a discount if you already have a PPL? Im assuming there is one part of the course that you wont need to study ande examine for? |
bobbydazzler84
No, not that I know of? In fact, already having a PPL will actually pre-clude you from most integrated schools as they want to mould you from zero to hero.
One of the obvious advantages of modular are that you can also work whilst training (have noted that you have resigned). Realistically you can work whilst doing your PPL, ATPL Theory and Hour Building. Most people generally go full time for their ME/CPL/IR, but it is not unheard of to do the lot part time. Working at the same time can add issues, but you can also save a lot of cash and it's all about the bottom line figure that your bank balance tells you it cost to get your fATPL and not c £40k, £50k etc for a course. Modular also allows you to train as quickly or slowly as you like which has been invaluable for anyone starting in the past 2 years. If you do a search there are several mod v int threads and make sure you read the 'CTC' thread if you haven't already as anyone finishing during the past year or so is probably is still swimming in the hold pool (but of course things can change in the next 2 yrs). There is no right or wrong answer, it's horses for courses. It really is up to you how much the integrated style of training is worth and your own personal circumstances? PS - just seen your comment about 'is type training included?' No, I believe CTC now charge c £25k for a Type Rating? |
Would you REALLY (I mean...R E A L L Y!?!) spend 100,000 (that's One Hundred Thousand) to get a license you can get for 50,000?!?!?!? |
Bobbydazzler (love the name btw), be careful about "helpful advise" on here.
Integrated courses do not cost 50k more than modular. They are more expensive, but once everything is added up, most modular students I met admitted to spending nearly as much as me (I did integrated). The premium (again, only according to the mods I met) around 5 years ago was 5 or 6k. Significant, but not as bad as some would have you beleive. No integrated course will bar you for having a PPL. 119.35's comments suggesting you might probably go back to the days when aairline cadet schemes precluded people with over 65 hours from applying. But nowadays you are self sponsored so this doesn't apply. And you certainly used to be able to get a discount off course fees for already having a PPL. Guys on my course who had PPLs got 20 hours off the minimum flight hours, which certainly adds up. |
Integrated courses dont usually have a 100k price tag, that's true, however should you need to get a loan for - say 60-70k (almost impossible nowadays anyway) - you'll easily pass 100k until you've paid it back. Compared to working and paying as you go alongside your job, yes, that's twice the price more or less¨.
Again, I'm not trying to argue about which is better, I am sincerely happy for anyone who found integrated is the right way, and hope anyone finds a job asap, no matter whether modular or integrated. In the end we're all doing it for the same goal, and most make it, just via different routes. Go find out which is the best for you, but don't just get hypnotized by a shiny brochure saying you'll get a job at the end of the course. Because you just won't. |
Modular can be done, in the UK, at good schools for £48,000 and in 12 months if you are in a hurry for some bizzare and misguided reason.
Not many Integrated courses that can be done for under £62k. You probably live within an hours distance of a perfectly good flying school who can do you a CPL/IR. Home study and brush up course for the ATPL's only requires about 4 weeks away from home if you don't happen to live within commute of a Groundschool. Its a NO BRAINER at the moment to go Modular. Has been for 3 years. |
Completely agree modular represents the best way forward for most people at the moment. If I was training now, its what I'd be doing. It just frustrates me when disinformation is spread about what amounted to a huge decision for all of us.
In terms of factoring cost, it is always best to focus on what is likely, rather than on what is possible. Does the 12 month, 48k modular course include PPL & hour building? The 14 month integrated course was pretty "action packed" and involved 80 less flight hours than modular. |
I have met someone that has gone modular, got a TR, and done the evil eagle jet in the orient to get 1000hrs 737 all in 90k, probably the price of an integrated school course.
It looks like PTF is here for the time being, so consider that on top of the 80 odd k that you will have to fork out to integrated school you are likely to have to buy a TR, maybe hours etc, buget for that as well. Go modular, it is such a no brainer, and more fun! PS - in no way do I advocate the PTF, Eagle jet et al. |
I really genuinely don't want to appear confrontational on this one, but these post lie at the crux of the modular myth; "I know someone who says"... ie allegedly, and totally unquantifiable. When you sit down and take these people to task, the story usually changes. I remember being on the flight deck once where a captain was openly laughing at how much extra I had paid than him. We were on a night flight back from Spain, so had the time to examine it in detail. We worked out I was financially better off than him, even with me integrated and him modular and nearly 10 years before me!
And the "if you go integrated, factor in loan interest" argument- what about considering the salary differential between an FO position versus the "flippin' burgers" job that most hold down during modular traning. How much do FIs or dispatchers earn? Absolutley no direpect to either, I know great guys in both roles, but relative to a FO they earn peanuts. Maybe to the tune of 18K net per year (1.5k per month). Over 3 or 4 years that really adds up. |
Sorry artie, have to disagree on that point. The best part about modular is that you can have a back up career, something to fall back on when a class one is lost, when the next down turn comes etc. I don't flip burgers and earn about 50k a year, yes I work hard, but whilst I am training i actually earn more than I will for my first fo job, something I find quite hard to justify at times!!
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UAV689 - its a fair point. Its clearly working well for you, and good luck to you. :ok:
I only intend to add a degree of balance to the mod vs int argument. There are people reading this thread who will be planning their training and shouldn't have statements like "integrated is 50K more" left unchallenged. |
Artie, you don't need to make that argument because the integrated flight schools already lay on the marketing twaddle thick enough. This thread is to help those who might otherwise fall for it.
Also, if your argument is based on the claim that integrated students get jobs as FOs but modular guys have to wait years flipping burgers, then your contribution is no better than the schools marketing nonsense because that is not even close to the truth. If you give up work completely and do a modular course full time at a reputable flight school you will in all likelihood probably save about £30 - 40K (or more if you account for interest over the period of any loans). You will of course miss out on any help that you might have received as an integrated student in finding a job but for the last 2 years that help has been mostly worthless anyway. Even before at the best of times that help only benefited a few - for the majority it is simply not worth the extra cost. |
Pelikanpete, you can read whatever misinterpretations of my posts you like, but I all I was doing was challenging the utter rubbish that integrated courses cost 50K more than modular, because they don't.
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Maybe not all of them, but certainly a lot!
If you take an example for the Netherlands: A mate of mine has debts of 120k € for his flight training in the KLS. Don't tell me you can't do modular flight training with a typerating for 70-80k € |
modular or integrated, there are no job...so go for the cheapest.
something is wrong in his head, when a guy go for integrated , pay a fortune plus airbus time, and finishes with no money!and no house on his head and parents have to go back to work. that's totally insane! |
Please help
if there is a captain out there please help me.... i really need to ask u something
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Urgent help
Hello there.
Ive spent two years trying to convince my parents that i want to be a pilot now that they have agreed. I need some help. I want to know what is the best way to go for a pilot training. I have no flying experience whatsoever. I have been looking for sponsorships from airlines. but havent found anything yet CTC wings/OAA are just too expensive for me CTC Wings is about £70 K (excluding accomodation etc..) OAA is about £80 K Also i need to find a way to get the money for the course as i dont have a property. can anyone help me out. this is like a turning point in my life if nothing happens now then i dont know if ill ever get a chance again. |
Look I'm not a captain but a cadet ship from an airline can be a good path to follow. Also whats your age range because the best path to follow will change. If your over 24 its to late to get a cadetship in most cases.
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Zizou001 - some of the those 2 years you should have spent working to save money + also considering the modular route, which will save you half the total cost of CTC or OAA.
The word is research, and then ask! |
Good morning everyone,
Just joined the site as a prospective pilot/wannabe. I was seriously considering an integrated course but having read a lot of the threads on this chat modular definitely seems the way ahead. The cost is obviously drastically lower than an integrated course and it seems the only benefit from taking that route is that they put you in touch with airlines at the end of it. 30 grand seems a high price to pay for a job interview!! I just have a couple of questions and if anyone can answer them I'd be grateful. 1. If I was to go down the modular route is it worth funding my own type rating on, say, a 737 and then approaching an airline? 2. Another problem I have noticed is the difficulty getting a job due to lack of hours...is it worth spending the extra money and time hours building and approaching an airline with 300 or 400 hours under my belt? If these questions are blatantly obvious to some, forgive the naivety, I am just trying to find out how to best plan to get ahead once I start down this road. Thanks in advance for any help and advice you can give. |
Aitch812 I totally agree with you.
At this moment in time atleast I can not see that paying the extra hard earned/borrowed money for intergrated training seems to out weigh going modular. For the last couple of years hardly anyone has been taking on 200 hour pilots except the obvious P2F airline/s. Its looking like pilots are beginning to move around to different airlines as the middle east airlines are expanding and stealing the more experienced pilots in the UK. If this keeps continuing then I actually think that intergrated students will start to see more positions becoming available. But at this moment I still belive modular is the way to go - you could even pay 1/2 of your savings by going modular to an airlines inside man/woman to get you your first job with an airline. You would save £15,000 on your figure saving of £30,000! With regard to your second question, I do not think it is worth spending thousands more on a couple of hundred hours in a C152 or alike. It would probably be spent flying around the local area mainly and would not be beneficial to an airline. If you have a few extra thousand to spend after your training, I would say go for an instructors rating instead. At least you get another qualification you could use with your CPL and you could start building your hours up whilst being paid a few quid for them. These are just my opinions from going through my training last year. I wish you all the best for your future. |
There is nothing wrong with either an integrated route to training or a modular route to training. In most cases the latter should prove cheaper as a route to licence aquisition because it can be done in broken stages and with the flexibility and pace that suits the student. In addition the modular route allows the applicant to pick and choose where they want to purchase the modular components. By and large the applicant has control over the training suppliers and their own progression.
With integrated training in the better recognised schools, there is a seamless continuation of training over a period of 15-22 months that involves an approved and recognised syllabus that in some cases uses teaching methods and operations that merge with those to be found in airline operations. This is something that many airline companies find particularly desirable in cadet pilots. They (the airlines) understand the syllabus and find it relatively easy to integrate cadets from these schools into their own training and operating regime. This is the reason that many of the airlines with low hour cadet schemes, affiliate themselves to one designated training provider and usually have little or no interest in applicants whose training background is undefined, patchy, incomplete, and not easily verifiable within their own requirements. To understand this better, you need to take a journey back in history. Airlines always sought the best applicants for their First Officer positions. The source of this supply was often a combination of ex- (and very well selected and trained) military pilots. In addition there were experienced general / commercial aviation pilots who had worked their own way up through the system. That system comprised pilots from approved courses and what were termed "self improvers". Sometimes airlines would approach the better and recognised training schools with a view to recruiting a limited number of direct entry "apprenticeships." However the majority of applicants would present with a few thousand hours aquired through aerial work (instructing, glider towing, photography, parachute dropping, banner towing etc.) Then on through air taxi work, or small turboprop operations. Airlines never had a need or particular want for low houred inexperienced applicants. That was reflected in the standards they set for applicants and the remuneration they offered to successful applicants. Apart from a few lucky individuals, the competition took place between self improvers who had worked their way through the system to eventually arrive at this plateau. So what changed? Well quite a few things did over the next 10 years. Firstly legislative harmonisation meant that individuals who (in the UK) could instruct on a PPL with 150 hours experience and requisite ratings, could no longer do that. They now needed a commercial pilots licence, much in line with the requirements of other countries. In the USA the commercial "ticket" had never been viewed as an airline qualification. That requirement was (in it's most basic form) the ATP. However unlike the UK, the commercial could be aquired with just a couple of hundred hours rather than the 700+ hours required in the UK. In other words the US "commercial" licence was in essence an "aerial work" licence, and the experience levels reflected that. In the UK the commercial licence had a higher base hour requirement (save for a very limited number of approved training schools) and was indeed regarded more as a basic airline requirement. The legislative changes however brought the UK system more into line with that in the USA and the rest of the world. In other words an ATPL with 1500 hours as a base requirement would likely reflect the normal basic and minimal entry requirement for most companies. The CPL would become the "aerial work" licence required for such jobs as "flight instructing" and the like. There seems to be a problem of perception, in that many of these new 250 hour pilots see themselves as prime recruitment material for airlines, when that has never been the case. What has happened in the last ten to 15 years is that a growing number of companies have expanded their recruitment portfolios to take on more cadet entry pilots. There is a cost advantage in doing this as the remuneration offered to these applicants is significantly reduced in the early years. These schemes are nearly all tied to a handful of integrated training providers, with the airlines themselves providing most of the "type" related training. The airlines are provided with significant benefits and safeguards with these schemes. In some cases applicants transfer sizeable bonds that are repaid to the recruit over a period of years. Applicants may be required to pay for part or all of their type training. The airline will have knowledge of the applicants training backround, profile and assesments. Very few of these schemes are offered to low hour modular candidates The few that are, tend to be of the pay as you go variety, where the applicant assumes full risk for every aspect of their progression, and in the very few cases where employment may be offered, it is of the "self employed" variety with little or no security of tenure and none of the normal employee benefits. Airlines seeking good First Officer material have a sizeable experience pool from which to draw from. They always have, and that is even more so in time of recession and consolidation, such as we are experiencing now. However a few companies have made cost cutting not only an art form, but in one or two cases pure entertainment. It doesn't take a leap of faith to understand that seeing profit in making passengers stand like half fallen dominoes, or paying to use the toilet, makes the prospect of doing away with one of the pilots completely, something to positively salivate at! Unfortunetaly (for them) that isn't a practical proposition. So they have utilised the next best course of action, that being to make the hopefuls pay to be there. As long as that situation persists it puts pressure on competitors to also reduce their similar costs. Ultimately the job ceases to be a job of employment, but simply a part of the customer experience. The idea that most or indeed many 250 hour pilots are suitable material as airline first officers is simply a delusion. For those cadet programmes that introduce a limited number of applicants to a properly structured training programme, that is probably the best way to go. These programmes are expensive because they are through integrated schools with afflilations to the customer airline. For those individuals who cannot proceed through this route, modular is the other option. This route is likely to be much longer, difficult, and involve a greater degree of disappointment if airline flying is simply seen as the only end goal. |
Those 2 years
I was in college those two years doing my a levels and i was doing a part time job at the same time but i haven't got enough money to go on a modular course. as i had to pay my own rent and living cost.
I am looking for a full sposorship or even part sponsorship but from an airline. And btw to know something you have to ask first why do u think this threads are made for? obviously to learn. and what are some people doing here? helping So cant i ask help and advice here???? Its better to ask someone who has experience isnt it? |
Hello
HElllo Andy98
I am 19 i have been looking around most of them seem to be closed. Those that were open where in - australia for jetstar - Honkong Cathay Pacific I live in the UK. I do not mind going abroad but i rather choose an airline with which i can spend the 7 years ( as i understand we have to stay with an airline for a certain amount of time if we enroll on their cadet scheme right?) i wanted to join etihad but the inernational program has been closed it is only open for UAE nationals And i have just finished my A Levels so i need to find one if possible now or before october. or else i might have to join next year DO you know any airline that offers cadet programs right now? |
A lot of interesting facts or near facts on this post me thinks. My son and I have gone to Bristol Ground school and liked and the mighty Oxford and liked both, albiet that Oxford all seemed teeth. Have you done the day intro, all the girls and boys seemd to have had there teeth done as part of the cause, all big shinny smiles. :eek: :E
Anyway 45K is a lot better than £85k ++++ TRUST ME, it sounds a lot better, in these current times. However looking at the theoretical facts, come 2014 more planes will be needed, China will have exploded and need more planes and planes means pilots. This is about timing and whilst we did like Oxford, this old poor dog just felt well, couldn't this all be done for say £55K or £60k. The talk was very smooth and well polished and impressive but in the room was a potentile £4 million in fees. I do smooth and polished if I thought I could get that in a single day trust me. Bristol Ground School was good with the approach of, we are here, we are the best and why the heck are you even thinking of anything else you muppet. This is all about ' Give us a job' and as soon a possible. Some kids are lucky as parents have nearly got £85k or they have it or what ever. For others £45k is a massive amount to earn, to then pay and that makes for a highly dedicated student. Its your money and boy have you spilt blood to get it. As a parent of one who wishes to fly :{ modular is a sound business decision but I just don't know. Its all about the timing and 2014/15 looks a dam site better than today. For anybody coming out in the next 18 months modular has it for me but in 3 years, it will be a close call, very close. Its just those dam teeth and all the dental work Oxford that my son will need that I am worried about :E |
Anyone out there know anything about Staplefords?
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Stapleford
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Thanks G SXTY, just what I was looking for.
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So we have the link to Stapleford School some loved it, some did not. Oxford is a mixed bag of pleasure and delight. So what is the experiance/feed back of Bristol Ground School please?
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You'd be hard pushed to find anyone who has anything bad to say against Bristol.
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Bristol GS? About the only bad thing I can recollect is that it isn't in Bristol. :)
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BGS and modular is a no brainer if you find £85k do be a bit daunting but possible.
The QE splurge is wearing off. Its back to recession and airline failures for the winter. Aer Arran are under 70 days Irish Ch11... The **** is about to re-hit the fan and the recent RYR/EZY/FLYBe hiring that has driven the market at the bottom end and the Dubai/Doha at the top end is going to stop. Credit is also going only one way from here. WWW |
Hi Wee Welshman :)
Nice post but what does all the abriviations mean please. Ch11, Aer Arran, Qe ect ect Thank you. |
Quantitative easing - the splurging of your own cash by the treasury to make you feel all warm and cuddly.
Chapter 11 - protection from your creditors whilst you reorganise your business. In essence you go generally go back to them and offer them for example 30p in the quid for them to write off the debt and you start off again and hopefully don't make the same :mad: ups. |
Ch11 = Chapter 11, bankruptcy in any other terms
Aer Arran = Irish Airline QE = Quantitative easingQuantitative easing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Ryr, Ezy, FLYbe = Ryanair, easyJet and Flybe airlines |
what does all the abriviations mean please. Ch11, Aer Arran, Qe ect ect Please tell us, what does ect ect mean?:confused: |
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