If we knew that then we'd make a killing on recruitment etc.

There has been talk of the airlines beginning to recruit experienced crews in 2011. However, as for the overall "boom times" for all? Our company is considering 2013 as the earliest time.

Well isn't that the million dollar question. Icelandic ash can't be helping.

So one should still go modular if starting during autumn, 2011?

fabbe you aint getting recruited no how mod or int

Maybe schools like EFT in Florida is the way to go nowdays. They are fairly cheap and they give you the chance to work as an instructor so when you leave them, you have around 1500 hours. That should put you in a better position to apply for a job, than the 250hr guys.

Thanks for the words of wisdom. Apologies if I offended anyone by calling you 'Boys' just a term I use to try and make myself feel younger! Nearing 25 now and the grey hairs may just be starting to get to me.

It would really help us wannabes if there were some hard facts about the pilot job market - for example....

Can anyone help with this info as it would help to make an informed decision.

To answer Martinch's question regarding my statement of paying double etc. I have worked to save approx 30% of the cost of an integrated course and will use this saving as a contingency to suppliment my repayments after I have completed the course. Hopefully with the investments I have made with some of this saving I should have a few years of repayments under my belt so I don't need to panic if I dont find a job straight away. I would'nt say my father is stupid (you may do?) but yes the aim is to take out a securred loan.

If you believe publications such as Flyer and Flight International there is now speculation of a possible pilot shortage in 2 years time. Let's hope so!

And where do they base this from? The so called retirement bubble that has been thrown about for the last 10 years or so?
Where is the growth in UK going to come from? certainly not Ryan and easy, I believe they have both made their future plans known, and after the current deliveries have been made thats it. I think the current boom will never be repeated, perhaps in the sand pit or far east, but certainly not in UK.

Where to start! If someone asked me on my opinion this is it. Modular. :ok:

Pre 2007 I would have said integrated. However, things have changed. I was very close to going integrated but chose modular and it has been the best decision I ever made. I trained at the top schools at some point and came out spending £40k for 270 hours.
After finishing recently I now have the same piece of paper as someone on an integrated course but half the debt and not crippled by the interest payments.

The good thing about the integrated course is that if there are jobs then you are going to be fine, but now, very few jobs, you join everybody else in the pool and fight it out. I suspect that this will be the case for the sometime.

If you can genuinely afford £115k (including a type rating), and I mean GENUINELY (not just being accepted for a loan) go integrated. If not modular is the route to go by some distance regarding price.

(Sorry if the answer is slightly disjointed it is very difficult to summarise this subject I could write pages and pages on the modular integrated issue pro and con for either).

TL 638,

Whilst your efforts to appraise the industry are applauded you need to take into account your circumtances/goals and the prospects of the industry...which at the moment are quite bleak. I would resist the temption to over analyse and to make a decision based on risk v return at this moment in time.

If you want hard facts such as those you've asked for, which may require investment of research (afterall aviation is an industry), then perhaps your best bet is to speak with either the CAA, IPA, BALPA or a leading industry player such as BA (possibly all!) who may have conducted an in-depth study on pilot recruitment and employment.

However, if you want to enter the industry, start by investing your time now by doing PPL/NPPL/Glider flying and that way you'll at least get some sort of flying experience and will allow you to see a little bit of the industry from within. As things start to improve your investment of time will start to pay off and you can then make a more informed and balanced decision on which route to take. :ok:

Complete and utter rubbish I'm afraid. The flight training industry has been selling the prospect of a 'pilot shortage' for as long as they've been training pilots. I started to seriously consider a flying career back in the late 1990s, and the schools were saying exactly the same thing then. The fact that wannabes want to hear it doesn't make it true. To add to the reality check, count the number of FTO adverts in the back of any flying magazine, then consider the advertising revenue they bring in, then consider whether the magazine might just have a vested interest in perpetuating this myth. When faced with an industry that knows you are itching to part with £60k+, and would love to get their hands on your money, it pays to treat their claims with extreme cynicism.

To get definitive answers to your other questions would require lots of data from the CAA and individual airlines - which you'll never get - but I'll try and give you my thoughts, from the perspective of a UK airline pilot who is not trying to sell you anything:

Very difficult to say with any precision, but probably somewhere between the high hundreds and a couple of thousand. In any case, the exact number is pretty academic – what matters is that there are lots of people chasing their first break in a market where first jobs are practically non-existant.

Fewer than in the last few years. BA recently raised their retirement age from 55 to 60, and as the UK's single biggest employer of pilots, that on its own will have an effect. Long term, retirement age is only likely to increase further. Again, it's fairly academic, because you will always have more wannabes trying to enter the market than people retiring from it. As an example, my airline employs around 700 pilots, and I can think of 4 or 5 who have retired in the last few months. If we were accepting CVs, I can guarantee you we would get more that that number every day.

Thousands. Far more than there will ever be jobs for. If you wanted to be really nerdy, you could look up how many light twins each of the commercial schools has, then, assuming that each aircraft operates say four student sorties per day, and each of those students takes around a month to complete the flying part of their IR, you could calculate a figure. It won't be pretty.

As I've said, you're not going to get this, but here's a ballpark view of the UK's four biggest employers of pilots. BA, when they recruit low hours pilots, will only take integrated candidates, and even then it's only a handful every month (note that having Oxford on your CV is not a ticket into BA). Ryanair couldn't give a toss whether you were integrated or modular, as long as you can pass (and pay for) their type rating course. Easyjet have traditionally sourced their low-houred pilots from CTC, which is actually a modular course, albeit run on a full-time (aka integrated) basis. Given their new found enthusiasm for pay to fly, however, I wouldn't get too excited about your prospects with them. Flybe don't mind whether you're integrated or modular, and if my experience is anything to go by, the mix is roughly 50/50. That's the big four, who between them account for the great majority of low-houred airline opportunities. Personally, I don't think it makes a convincing case for integrated, but if you think it's worth spending double for a better chance of a job, then fill your boots.

As Pilot Positive says, all the analysis and number crunching is a little academic right now. There are virtually no jobs out there irrespective of your choice of school or training route, and that situation is unlikely to improve for at least the next couple of years. If you are passionate about flying (and why else would you want to be an airline pilot?) then get down to your local flying club and do some PPL training. It's all hours in the logbook, and at least you can be doing something constructive while waiting for the market to improve.

Hi G SXTY,

Thanks for posting such an in depth reply. Just one query, from where did the information regarding BA only recruiting integrated students come from? I've heard it many times, but when I went up onto the flight deck of a BA flight last summer (pre take off) to chat with the pilots, neither thought it was correct... The FO had joined direct from CTC as a 200hr guy, which as you say is effectively a modular course.

I don't work for BA, so my information is third-hand, but as I understand it the reasons are historical. In the olden days before JAA, when the choice was CAP509 (what is now integrated) or the self-improver (modular) route, BA allegedly took on a few low-houred self-improvers, and weren't particularly impressed. Since then, all recruitment of inexperienced pilots has been via the 'approved' / CAP509 / integrated route. Presumably a candidate from CTC would be acceptable as they have passed an initial selection and would come with a verifiable training history (the CTC course being integrated in all but name).

Note that once you have enough commercial experience to apply to BA as a direct entry (experienced) pilot, they are as disinterested as everyone else as to how and where you got your licence.

BA? this company is a joke and you should nt join a school who send pilots to BA.
when you look at the strikes(pretty much every month now), the management who don't care except how much is on their fat bank account, I can not trust who is in charge of these planes.it' s all corrupt from the top to the the bottom!.

BA is already dead, in a few months they will close their doors.
I think it' s going to be the end for Oxford Aviation and the end of many integrated schools

who cares?, some other airlines will take the lines, and student will go somewhere else.
plenty of good schools where you save lot of bucks!.

Well if I hade the oppurtunity to work for BA, I would go there directly. They have problems right now, but so does all the other carriers as well. Let´s face it, BA is the ultimate career goal for many and they are among the best airline pilots in the world, together with Lufthansa and others, if you look at their assesement, training and standards.

Pilot training in Australia
 

Im looking at doing my CPL in Oz next year. Im 29 and looking for the best, most cost effective way of obtaining my cpl, with a frozen Atpl, can anyone give me some guidance on this? Obviously time frame is a factor due to my age, however still want to get the best training possible. Prices seem to fluctuate quite dramatically it seems, Modular or intergrated??? whats the difference from those of you who have taken the different paths. Thanks in advance

Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.

All these replies about how much cheaper it is are pretty academic as there is one rather important issue:

THERE ARE NO JOBS!!!

(**I don't count paying Easyjet £34,000 for the honour of flying their passengers about for a bit whilst the next sap waits in the wings for their turn as a 'job'**)

This thread was started on the 26th January of this year. So, what is the OP's current employment status? Of the people joining the love-in along the way...what is your employment status? I am referring more specifically to recent graduates of the money saving modular courses (i.e. G-SXTY etc telling us about their success in 2008 is pretty irrelevant as the jobs market is a totally different place now).

You would have to be a nutter to go and spent any amount on an ATPL with no job at the end at this moment in time (£50,000 is hardly loose change). The only way I could envisage advising someone to start training is if they were accepted onto a tagged or part sponsored scheme. The only company I know of doing this at the moment is flybe. The pick is the part sponsored Cabair scheme run annually, with the FTE MPL and Waterford schemes thrown in there too. The airline makes a contribution to your training here and hence has an interest in employing you at the end. Before anyone moans about the flybe pay/bond...you'd be £34,000 better off straight away due to not having a super dooper TR to pay for!

Traditionally, low hours recruits have recently finished their training and are fresh or still in the training mentality. Training now then hoping to potter around for a bit until the upturn happens isn't a great policy, no matter how much cheaper it is. When airlines start recruiting it will be the lucky people popping out of the training system at that time..and most probably from the airlines' favoured schools. Right place, right time etc etc.

Just because WWW cites one example and using their position as a moderator tp make it a sticky just to back up their personal opinion does not make it fact, gospel or more valid...especially when it is pretty irrelvant when considered in the big context which is GETTING A JOB! After all, unless it ends up in employment/living the dream it is a wasted £50,000 doing a modular course too.

In summary, both a modular AND integrated course would be a waste of money if you didn't get a job at the end. So, at this moment in time stay away from training unless you have a job sorted...which in all likelihood means a tagged/part-sponsored integrated or MPL course.

Originally, in the early 70's, training was completed at Hamble where a selected number of cadets went through their zero-to-hero training program. Along the way of each program a good % of these cadets dropped out/failed to meet their required standards - which were high. So since this time an integrated student approach to co-pilot training has been inherent in their culture - only nowadays they have simply delegated this approach to a few selected schools. :cool:

Unfortunately, FL370 Officeboy's post contains grains of reality, especially for the UK, where regardless of the training route you take it simply is not a good time to be training. However, the gloss of the FTO's and the subtle suggestions that "there's light at the end of the tunnel", "some airlines are talking about pilot shortages in 2 years" and "by the time you finish there'll be jobs around" etc... are only ways of drawing new revenue into the industry. :=

Be warned, integrated FTOs have very well honed sales cultures and are probably quite happy to flout and breach consumer law including the law of misrepresentation in order get ya money. So plan carefully, invest for the long term and avoid "I want a job NOW" fast-tracking mentality as a great many of you will be very sorely dissappointed. :uhoh:

How long have I been saying there are no jobs out there?

How long have I been saying it's not going to improve for at least another couple of years?

How many times have I said that success in this game is all about timing?

:ugh:

I'm starting to feel like www.

Welcome to my world!

Daily PM's asking whether Oxford or Cabair or Boeing or Airbus rating. The phrase Wannabe Zombie Army was a considered one. They are relentless and unstoppable.

If your ultimate career goal is to wait decades for a command whilst working in an atmosphere of hostile industrial relations and be based in LHR LGW then maybe BA is for you. They are not the best airline pilots in the world. They're bog standard. Like me. Like the rest of the airline pilots out there. In BA, like every other airline, there are Piloting Gods, bloody idiots and inbetween a vast swathe of bog standard airline pilots doing their job and living their life. The assesement is a total lottery, the training is good but nothing exceptional and the standards are high - just like most places. I doubt any BA pilot would take offence or exception at those comments.



The bottom line of the substantive point of this thread is this. When times are booming it can be worth paying the Integrated premium because this can lead to direct entry to major airline right hand seats. When times are busting it can be worth saving money by going Modular because debt repayments are a ballache and training can be slowed/delayed/speeded up as required by economic developments and personal circumstance.

We're in a massive Bust. Go Modular. You muppets.


ps Flying magazines - and I've met a few of the Editors in my time - make ALL their profit on the advertisements in the back. Note that most of the larger and therefore expensive ones are from schools selling flight training. Have you ever heard the phrase 'never bite the hand that feeds you'? Well flying magazines stroke it, manicure it and paint its freakin' fingernails. Don't believe a word they say about pilot recruitment or employment. Not one word. Ever.

Sounds like a jungle out there! so there are no jobs going at the moment, a good time to get training then. is the outlook for recruitment still as depressing for someone to put together a modular program and aim to finish in two years time? not ignoring the lovely :ugh:icon but obviously want to find out as much as possible before making any decisions.

Not only are there no jobs at the moment (apart from £30k pay to fly loco deals) there will be fewer jobs as the economy takes a downturn and more airlines go bust or contract.


Sorry but the £2,000,000,000 Quantitative Easing money is spent, the Eurozone is about to enter a crisis big enough to cause its collapse, the UK housing market is still flat on its arse at 35,000 transaction per month despite having just has the peak of its year (Easter) and the "savage" public spending cuts and government job losses are increasingly just around the corner. So. The outlook for recruitment is still depressing. Ryanair is still the best deal out there to the general Wannabe. And that's for a job that you pay three times over the odds to get type rated for and which offers you NO guaranteed wage, base or continued position vs redundancy - you're a contract worker to be switched on, or off, as the accountants dictate.

Its a huge great big **** sandwich but the queue to take a bite extends down the street and past the chemists. Its quite amazing really.


Really. It is.

''Has anyone heard of or dealt with Waterford pilot training college in Ireland? have been offered a place on their modular (zero to CPL and theory ATPL) course but price is huge 87,500 Euro. they have a link with Florida I.T which is where you do majority of hours.''

I did lad. I've done a lot of research on this place as its only across the road from me. All anyone is saying too me is stay away, the centre is nice, the promise is nice and the trainers are nice too but I have been told by people who went and trained in this too stay well clear

If everything is "nice", why are they telling you to stay clear? Did these people you've spoken to finish their training recently or over a year ago or more?

After the election in the UK, the reality of how much trouble the economy is in will become a reality. And its in very very serious trouble indeed - even to the extent that the 3 major parties are skirting around the issue as they know it will drastically affect their ratings in the polls.

Yet still the naive and optimistic keep coming: As my Father use to say "If you cant be clever then learn the hard way."

Perhaps you should focus less on the UK and start looking abroad? The first thing we learn in Sweden is, if you want to be a pilot, then be prepared to move far, far away from home.

I would have to agree with you Fabbe92, however not all wannabees are as open minded a you would have hoped. See:

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...cruitment.html

However, I would also point out and perhaps reiterate WWW's post that the recession is a world recession and that, although, European economies are ahead of the UK in their economic cycle and have provided a little room for optimism the very recent events in Greece are likely to slow it all down rather dramatically....

Yes I know that it doesn´t look good anywhere at the moment, but if one tends to look at the UK or any other country specificly, the chances of getting a job are slim even during boom times.
And then I´m not talking about jet jobs. Any flying job in the world where you are safe and earn a decent living, is a good job.

Er...possibly not. Given that the UK is well within the the top 10 world economies I would say that its a good place to start looking during a boom time.

Fabbe92 we're straying off the thread track here mate - perhaps check out the thread http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...cruitment.html ? :ok:

''If everything is "nice", why are they telling you to stay clear? Did these people you've spoken to finish their training recently or over a year ago or more?''

It appears too be nice until you learn that all they want is your money. I have been told and have talked too ex students who finished both last year and 4 years ago. and both are the same. they are now in over 90k of debt and still have no job. now i cant fully comment as i dont have first hand experence with doing their course just going on these people. general rule is if you have that cash + another 30k for a tr ( ryanair ) then go ahead. Pilot Training Course Waterford PTC Ireland Diary of a PTC Student this fella seemed too enjoy it but he is as far as im aware not a pilot at the min

Intergrated
 

The integrated course is easier to pass through.
Modular is like learning to fly using a ski instructor.
It takes a lot of independent study and research...

Yes - simply hours and hours and you only end up saving £30k. :ugh: Methinks I smell a course recruiter.... :hmm:

I'm currently doing modular training and I can finance that through my job. It is all based on the thought that I can speed it up or slow it down whenever I want. At this point I'm still working on my PPL and I bought a share in a Diamond Katana, so hour building will be cheap for me.

A friend of mine is almost done with his integrated course and he is scared as hell. He has a dept of almost 140k (euro) and he is madly searching for possibility's to get a loan for another 30k for a TR. Its just insane.

When I am finished with my training in a year or 2-3 I will have no debt at all and it will cost me 1/3 of what my friend payed for his licence (exactly the same!!!!). I will be able to sleep at night and if there ever rises an opportunity to get a job I will have no problems at all to get a loan for an TR or if the market is still **** I can get a FI rating or just have fun flying the Katana around Europe and keep my current job.


Something about penny wise, pound...



ps: as you can see I am a long time reader, but this was my first post

whoa! You are exactly doing what I want to do, though I'm still in college (graduate next year:cool:)

plenty of job...

ratio 1/1000 (1 job/1000 pilots)

you don't believe? no problems, it s you money...I don't care if you don't belive me. I have no debts...

bye bye buddy, you have been baned.

shame on us, everything you said is right.


tell him:if you can not take care of your money, how can you fly a jet??

The problem is that its all about timing, and a little about where you train. To deal with the last point first, any integrated FTO that has a real link to a recruiting airline is going to place you more quickly that if you work on your own, but that advantage does have to be tempered against the significant extra cost of integrated training and moderated with the knowledge that, in good times, that advantage is not great.

There are few real links between UK based FTOs and airlines, and many of them such as the flybe scheme only deal in small numbers. The only significant one that I know of is the link between CTC and Easyjet and, say what you like about contract terms, CTC have consistently placed large numbers of cadets with the airline throughout this recession.

We're at an interesting point now where recruiting is starting to take off, although it is not much mentioned on PPruNe. As an example, Emirates have stated they need 250 pilots this year and 500 next year. BA have also expressed a need for several hundred pilots. Easyjet are currently pretty short of crews because they have restricted recruiting in the recession, they are even planning to wet lease aircraft in this summer. Their HR dept has allegedly received 300 odd reference requests from Emirates in the last couple of months, mostly relating to applications from Easy senior FOs.

So what's going to happen here? Unless there's a double dip recession the Easy pilots that have been messed around by HR, including those on the poor contracts that aren't bonded, are going to leg it to the likes of Emirates and BA and therefore Easy are going to find themselves in a hole by the late summer. They will no longer be able to recruit on the current ridiculous contract terms and concepts like 'flexi-crew' are going to disappear very quickly. CTC are well placed as their 'preferred supplier' but may be unable to satisfy the demand and Easy will probably also take candidates from other FTOs, both integrated and modular.

So yes, I think that integrated with CTC may be a good choice right now, although I'd find it hard to justify an integrated course elsewhere. Clearly starting an integrated course two years ago was a bad decision and yes, the posters on PPRuNe did say so at the time. The big advantage of modular training, apart from the overall cost, is that you can stay working while you train. The cash disappears very quickly when you give up work.

As a side-note, I met an Easyjet captain last week that was one of the first JAR candidates at Cabair. He walked straight into a job with Go, then of course Go was taken over by Easy, and he made command in four years.

Timing.

I will now stand back and wait for WWW's opinion!

We are not aware of attrition rates at Emirates and neither are we aware of whether those numbers represent firm commitment or speculative projections based on current demand.

The UK/European economy is far from out of the woods and the financial pundits have already got their money on a double dip recession. Sorry if it sounds glass half full but that is likely to be the reality. I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong but I have that nagging feeling...

Your arguement is well formulated Alex but lets keep it simple: Undertaking an Integrated course during a recession is very risky. Doing a modular course during a recession is a better managed risk but still a risk.

The third option? Wait 8 - 12 months to see how the industry has progressed and then make a decision. :cool:

Hi PP, all good points. Recruiting announcements are always slightly speculative and much of my post is based on rumour. The emirates announcement was in Flight International, the Easyjet info was from airline jungle drums.

We?

Yes I love that!
this is what I say to all my friends who went for the P2F.
Just look for the trend, better or worse in 6 months.

if Alex is right, in 6- 12 months, airlines will start to offer type ratings with "bonding contract", and it 's going to be the end of these P2F SCAMS and **** CTC flexy screw programs ...

so guys, wait and see!