Sadly the Cabair Integrated course now costs £62500, call it ~ £72000 with accommodation/living costs and all the extras. But their doing a structured modular course (JAA Pro Pilot Programme) mostly in the US for a alot cheaper, I've worked it out as ~ £41000 basic, plus the extras ~ £47000, all due to them now being Cabair International :)

ok, I'm not going to argue. All I ask is people THINK about the WHOLE BLOODY THING not just the obvious bits.

Now, just humour me and answer two questions.
1. If flight training was not on the agenda AT ALL, for either of our mythical students, what would they need to fund to live for a year? If your answer is "the same" - why then would you add the "cost" of living to one course but not the other - that cost exists, regardless of whether you are learning to fly or not - UNLESS you have to fund one home whilst living away - in which case it's valid. If there is a fundamental difference between the two people whereby one costs more to live than the other, then please explain.
2. Go to PPJN and look up the salary scales for a decent carrier. Let's use Thomas Cook. here: Thomas Cook Airlines (UK jobs, payscales and entry requirements.)
Now. Fire up a spreadsheet and copy/paste in the F/O and captain salary values per year given. Now. We have to assume that the integrated student is available to work AT LEAST a year prior to the mod - purely because he'll finish sooner, because he's full time. Let's also assume that both land a job - lucky so and so's - straight out of flight school - so ignoring the main selling point of integrated. Let's assume both never lose their medicals and get to enjoy 25 years after the first finishes flying school and they have continuous service before retiring with their respective better halves. Add it up. Seriously, add up the columns. This is really, really basic economics, but it proves the point about length of service. The fact that the integrated student has a year extra working is tail loaded. It means over a 25 year working life, he earns the top level salary for A YEAR LONGER. It means over a 25 year career the difference in salary is £109k more. But what if our modular student takes *2* years longer that integrated boy to finish? WOW £219k less! But that's ok huh .... cos you've earned £25 a year for those two years you lost.

I am NOT trying to sell or push or guide anyone to integrated - but for gods sake - LOOK at the whole picture. Yes modular is cheaper up front, but what's the long term cost? You can argue all you like if you don't like the numbers, but that's how it is. That's how it breaks down. The sooner you get into [professional aviation] the larger the final amount of money you'll make out of it. Same in ANY career.

I'm really worried I'm causing you a nervous breakdown. Right:

1. As another poster has said above, if you want to add living costs to both please do so. But also take my salary off that - and that's £43k. That's £43k of income that an integrated student would not get BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT WORKING!!! Hope you now get it. To be fair - you should also take off all my holidays, car etc. It will bring you back to the £700/month figure. Either way I've still had a good quality of life, while training at my own pace.

2. For that mythical year you are ahead, I'm still working in my non flying job (at actually better than a FO salary - but that's by the wayside). Anyway - I'll let you believe that you'll get in 1 year earlier (£60k has to be worth something). However, when you're on yr 25 salary, I'm on yr 24 salary, so it's only the difference between the two, not a full yr 25 salary (your understanding of basic economics is worrying to say the least). So take into account I've got £60k invested for 25 years (maybe property), was already paid better than you as an FO for one year while I was still looking for work and you'd got your flying job. Add to that the real world scenario that as you've raced into a dodgy employment situation rather than slowing down as a modular student would, then we just might be as employable as one another anyway.

I'll take my chances thanks!!

A123 - you're worrying me now too!! You haven't understood his point because he's making the assumption that in his first year working, the mod student is on the dole. That's the point, a mod student is still working and in many cases on a salary greater than what can be expected of an entry level FO position. It shouldn't be all about money, but it generally seems to be for these integrated mob and what I'm trying to show you is that even for the lucky few, the only ones winning are the integrated FTO providers.

clanger 32, I appreciate what you are trying to do but sadly, reality also kicks in.
(For me, all this talk of modular v integrated is all moot but any way)

You're 36, did an integrated course and as far as I can tell, not flying professionally. (Sorry about that, I am not having a go at you). So, now you (and others in a similar position) have a very expensive "blue book" that is not paying it's way.

If some one had to take a loan to do this integrated course, then they are really behind the pay/pension drag curve, especially as they near 40.

I am in that situation but for a different reason. I shifted countries at 35 and converted my Australian ATPL to a JAA one. I now pay into my pension per month what I used to earn gross flying freight in the UK.

One other factor is that some one straight out of school is not going to have upwards of £100K lying around, so they had to get the money from somewhere.
That needs to be factored in.

My 2 cents/pence for what it's worth.
I'll go with WWW, integrated for when the economy is recovering. Modular all the time.
However, I'll expand my thoughts. Integrated if all you want to do is fly an airliner. Modular for those who want options and flexibility.

Remember, easyJet and Ryanair have both forecast a slow down in their expansion.

Good luck to all of you, I wish we all had a crystal ball so we could make the right decision. What is the right decision for Bloke A, is not always the right decision for Bloke B.

When is the easy/ryan slowdown expected? 2,3,4 or 5 years?

To add to what redsnail has already said, you also need to ask yourself, "what is it you want"?

If you want a CPL/IR with 250 hours and the basic tool to apply for "aerial work" and entry level jobs wherever they may be found, then the modular route is probably the way to go. Anybody with a Class one medical certificate and a reasonble level of aptitude and determination should be able to save money on the required training and testing necessary for licence aquisition.

If you seriously intend to have a shot at an airline pilots job with only 250 hours, then the best bet is through that airlines "cadet scheme" if it operates or subscribes to one. For those that do, they will virtually all do so through affiliated, integrated programmes through (in the UK) one of the "Big 3" training providers (CTC, FTE, Oxford.) This will be either through an integrated ATPL scheme, or possibly the more recently introduced MPL scheme.

Pretending that there is some sort of "mix & match" scheme is pointless. Airlines are not short of candidates. The flexibility and cost benefits that these schemes give those companies is also protected by the assurance they are provided by having those low houred entrants come from recognised, monitored and mentored training providers.

Where recruitment is occuring now it is sourcing these integrated low houred cadets via these schemes, as well as experienced type rated and qualified pilots. There is no shortage of pilots from either source, and there is isn't likely to be in the forseeable future.

You only have to look at the recruitment that is now occuring in those airlines that are recruiting to see evidence of this. Then take a look at the expansion in facilities that is for example taking place at Flybe in Exeter. The number of people going through "wings" courses at CTC. New MPL programmes at Oxford in conjunction with Easyjet. Affliated ATPL/MPL programmes with FTE. All of these courses are well subscribed, and likely to be able to amply provide for any short term requirement. They also have the ability to ramp up quickly to meet any anticipated future need. Couple this with the stock of experienced pilots such as those looking to move up their own career ladder, as well as the easily converted stock of career change military pilots, and you see just how squeezed those "modular candidates" are now and are likely to be in the future.

The CPL/IR and 250 hours is the bottom rung of the ladder without one of these "fast track" programmes. It is a ladder that can certainly be climbed, but the difficulties and frustrations involved, as well as the likely attrition rate, shouldn't be underestimated by anybody.

So again, before asking yourself "which is cheaper," you need to understand what it is you actually want from the outlay, before that cost becomes the overriding factor. If it is airline employment......

Ask yourself the following questions:

1) Which countries do I have the unrestricted right to live and work in?

2) Which of those countries principal languages do I speak fluently?

3) Where do the airlines in these countries employ their "low hour" pilots from?

4) Is my proposed training programme likely to elicit any interest from these airlines, based on their current recruitment requirements?

And if choosing your integrated provider as Bealzebub says is your only "fast track" route in, then choose wisely. The connections are now so tight do you think that someone trained at Oxford has much chance at a CTC affiliated airline and vica versa? So it could be that you pay over inflated prices to actually limit your options!

My replies yesterday weren't intended to be a personal onslaught. The point is this, talent isn't king, cash is. Selection is predominantly with regard to depth of pocket. The example I was trying to illustrate wasn't that modular is better than integrated or vica versa, it was to show that costs to support over inflated integrated prices are being pushed up from the bottom by ill advised wannabees and pinched from the top by accountants such that the stakes for anyone with common sense are now simply too high. At a cost of £20k it's probably worth chancing your arm to see if you are good enough (assuming selection was aptitude based rather than cash based). This can only be achieved at present via the modular route - though as Bealzebub says, this may be futile. So the other option - integrated (plus a potential TR) at £80-110k+ to have maybe a chance of getting in for a year or two........you'd have to be mad. So as much as Bealzebub's post is trying to help - in my view there really isn't an answer unless you have more money than sense and unfortunately it seems quite a few have. I dare say many of those most suited to the profession are now discouraged from airline flying for this very reason. Others, like our good integrated friend above, find themselves high and dry. Such a shame.

I was going to write a nice big post, but lost interest half way through so here's my condensed opinion:

1. I'm with Beazlebub on the integrated-to-airline route and modular to keep options open/flexibility

2. By that argument though you are saying that by going modular you are limiting your options even further...but at least you get to spend a little less. (assuming you were wanting to have a shot with an airline)

3. No doubt true...but having said that it doesn't mean that those who weren't discouraged are in any way less suited to the profession.

4. Fable - from what I've heard, Ryan will stop the large recruitment in 2013 as I think thats when the last planes are due to be delivered. Not sure about Easy.

5. I agree with whats been mentioned about the actual "cost" of doing flight training. Its not all monetary but comes in many forms such as what it is you actually want out of it and what gives you the best chance to achieve that.

6. I'm sure I'm going to get slaughtered for saying this but I actually think now is a good time to do an integrated course (and modular of course). If you were to start now you would in theory get your CPL/IR by late 2012/early 2013, I feel the situation is going to be a lot better than it is now and I think most things will be recovering nicely by then.

sons, if you have to calculate how much your training will cost you, I can tell you already, you are on the wrong track and you go :ugh:.

this profession is for the rich one, not the one who need to work hard to pay back their debts.

Point 2. I agree modular limits you further. Once again - I'm not trying to say one training route is better than the other, I'm trying to illustrate that people's over eagerness to pay over inflated prices are too high a personal gamble and the current training industry practices (both FTO's and wet-behind-the-ears-money-no-object applicants) will have a long term detrimental effect (if not already). I'd even venture further that integrated training is possibly more effective though with one major factor for consideration. The integrated courses were at one time the sole preserve of sponsorship schemes (BA et al) - selection was by aptitude and this regulated the 'integrated industry'. Now misguided people are being encouraged (by the revenue hungry providers, not the employers) to take ever higher gambles. I am simply trying to raise awareness that this has perhaps gone too far.

Point 4. I understand what you are referring to but not sure which point you are replying to?

I didn't really want to respond to this thread again, as it just re-hashes the same old arguments and certainly I have no wish to engage/enrage DSB just because we disagree on this point - I've certainly seen enough in the postings to see we agree largely on other things. However, a couple of points:

1. To be VERY clear, right now I wouldn't recommend an integrated course. I'm with Redsnail, WWW and everyone else...time your training. It's NOT that I'm saying "integrated is better"....WWW summed it up perfectly as far as I'm concerned "integrated when it's good, modular when it's smelly". It's still vaguely whiffy right now.
2. DSB - where we DO disagree, is that no, the difference in our theoretical example is NOT the difference between PP24 and PP25. it IS PP25. I get the impression that you haven't really stopped to try and analyse what I'm saying, because you are just disagreeing with ME. Remember your ATPL exams - look for evidence which DISPROVES your current thinking, not that supports it. Look at it this way - right down in column A the yearly pay point from 1 to 25. Now repeat in column 2, but exclude pp25 (because, as per our example, student B will never REACH pp25 - because they finished a year after student A. Again, note that this is NOTHING to do with "speed of getting a job" - it's just that Student A CAN get a job a year earlier, because they finsihed the training earlier - it actually does NOT include the concept that Integrated MAY get a job quicker). Now, with your two columns, cross reference - play "snap" with the numbers. you will find that you can cross out EVERY SINGLE NUMBER in column A from the numbers in column B. Except PP25. THAT is the difference. That is what you will have NOT earned in your new career by finishing later. Please - don't just react and say "what a load of horsesh... Clanger is talking"....go and do it. Really - go and put it into a spreadsheet. You're right, the difference is offset by the fact you're still earning your £43k in student A's year one.....but would you rather have the £109k TC pay for that year, or the £43k?

RS - you're absolutely right- thing is, I took a gamble - I started training at the best ever time for low houred recruitment....unfortunately some pillock broke the economy whilst I was training. I am more or less resigned to the fact that I will never fly professionally now. I have no debt whatsoever (other than my mortgage...). do I REGRET it? Difficult question. Sure, I could use the £70k in my bank now, but I went for it, I could not have given anything more to it and I finished with the best possible opportunity to gain employment. I was also unlucky in that I just missed selection for your mob, although I did enjoy Lisbon ;) But sometimes that's just the curveball life throws you. My ONLY intent in offering ANY opinion on these forums is to provide MY experience and to try and present a clear picture. There is MORE than enough I wouldn't argue against someone slating an integrated course for, but if we're doing the pure "cost" then I feel it should be balanced correctly, NOT taking the cheapest possible way of doing one method and comparing it against the most expensive route for the other.

Clanger - you're right (sort of) and I apologise as something had also been niggling me about the calculation too. However - it still isn't the value of the final year. What it is, is the difference between each and every year we're employed. If you use Thomas Cooks figures, in general each year you would be ~£1000-1500 better off. Over a 25 year career that's ~£31k (not the £109k). Integrated still doesn't work out financially, even in this hypothetical situation of employment, though weighted with the fact that integrated probably does give you a head start, I'll accept that there is a little more balance than I demonstrated. However, I'd temper that with the view that predicting employment any further on than about 4yrs is lacking any substance - once in then it's every man for himself and you're at the mercy of the economy.

Heh heh
Amen brother. Amen.

All I was ever seeking to illustrate.. :ok:

Thanks to all recent posters. This is an excellent up to date thread for Wannabes encountering the infinity loop of Int vs Mod. Views on both sides with realistic numbers have been used. It does not matter who is right or wrong - illumination has been provided in a manner and to a degree unavailable elsewhere.

Thank you.

I love a good argumnet boys but I feel as if modular is now taking a headway as every airline now wants you to pay for your type rating. Once you have the rating, no one gives a stuff about your past. If you can still receive a rating for free (doesnt exist) then integrated all the way.

I think Clanger makes a very good point. I personall like the whole idea of modular because of the reduced risk for various reasons however. I had a full time job and it took me a year to get a PPL flying at weekends with already 11 hours. I've also incured remedial training due to this again increasing the cost.


Modular Figures:
The figures I Worked off were:
PPL + night 8k
ATPL Exams (Bristol GS) £3000
Hour Building £7000 SFC
CPL/IR/ME £20k SFC
MCC 2k SFC
Living Fees including Petrol Medical Landing Fees 15k

vs

Integrated
Oxford 76k
CTC 70K
PTC 72k

Around 40k however the cost of living including driving to the FTO Landing fees soon adds up. So I'd say a realistic Modular all UK is around 55k including everything.

But obviously if you were to go CTC or Oxford them it will be alot more.
Personally I feel that if yo do train all at one place in a continous way you will be better than the Modular Pilot who takes 2-3 years. Also with Integrated you can immense yourself into purly Flying without the worry of other things going on in life.

And that through integrated you will be more likely to get a Job due to the training you have received not by the company it was with.

You are only as good as your training. Thats why RAF pilots are the best. So are you going to receive the best training for the cheapest price. Hmm im not sure in the same way the best Pay in any job is with those more capable either by experience or natural ability or both.

I think the notion of walking from Flight Training into a Job is quite unlikily at the moment. But if anyone has read Airliner World recently you would know that growth figures all over the shot. There will always be new jobs somewhere. However; lets not forget its a top profession and is very competitive.

Forcast
Its forcast that Europe is going to need 3,600 new Pilots annually.
World over 20,000 Per Annun.

What about the actors that go to Hollywood and make their dream happen or the people that start their own empires. It has to happen to someone. Maybe it won't be you. But a key trait in anyone successful is perserverance and activity to make it happy. All I know is that life is not a rhersal. If you want to do something enough then do it; because 70k debt isn't the best way to start your woking life; but if it's going to give you happy career then why not?

If you don't try then your not gonna know.

I give up. Taking a horse to water must be more fun...............

Ryanair take delivery of their last B737 in around 2 years from now.

I'm a modular student. I'm going to be honest with you about what it's cost/going to cost me..

PPL £8,000 (approximate as I didn't keep track of what I spent) including things like a decent headset, flying gear, books etc..

Hour building £9,900 ex landing fees at other airports and petrol to get to/from the airfield. Luckily I fly a PA28 out of Cranfield for £99 per hour wet inc. landing fees.

ATPLs (Bristol Ground School)
Course - £2140
Exam fees - £924 (14 @ £66 a pop!)
Accommodation in Bristol - £600 (£300 for each 2 week stint)
Hotel at Gatwick for exams - £400
ATPL total = £4,064 (and that figure doesn't include lunches and dinner and general spending money)

CPL/ME/IR @ Stapleford £25,000 (will include a suggested 10% contingency fund on top of the all inclusive course cost)

MCC hasn't been done but you can add another £2,000 to 3,000 on top easily.

Total = £50,000

50.000 pounds sounds a lot less stress then 90.000 right? Did you do it with a full or part time job? Im thinking to start my course over a year or so, the PPL, now Im just first year student for a bachelor degree. So in the beginning of my third year I want to start my flying course!! We'll see...

found this somwhere on the net:

DSB,

I know, i couldn't agree more ! :ugh:

I've been doing it whilst holding down a full time job captain.weird. The thing to remember is that up until the CPL/MR/IR I was in no debt at all. The debt came when I had to borrow £14K to put towards the cost of the CPL/ME/IR. You wouldn't get that with an integrated course..

Guys are you not aware there are now many schools offering Modular but in one shot (which would take between 12 and 18 months) for around 50000£? And more and more are doing it so why pay the extra 30£?? Get a type and some line training if you really wanna spend that extra cash!! Then see wh'os more competitve. 200 TT integrated with 50 on the sim or you 700 total a rating and 500 h on type!

I dont understand why this thread is so long...... Pay 30-50K for a license or pay around 100K for the exact same license?????!

Urm... Lets try it a different way...

Pay £400 for a 42 inch samsung TV or pay £1000 for a 42 inch samsung TV?


One thing I dont understand is people who are willing to throw money away. If you go on the OAA site you can look up the APPFO course and what it involves along with the cost, around 85K all told (not including TR).

Then just click the modular tab on the OAA site. Their modular includes the CPL/IR/MCC/JOC for about 30K.

Lets say you were to go modular and did everything you could at oxford:

- JAA approved UK PPL can be done for 7K and in 4 weeks at some schools in the US, and inc. night qual & RT.

- Hour building in US to get you to 100 hours PIC and 150TT can be done in 75 hour block for £5500 along with a few hours in UK. Total: £8000

- OAA ATPLs distance learning: £1200!!

- OAA CPL/IR/MCC: £29000

- OAA JOC: £2000

So after completing PPL and hour building cheaply in US and partially in UK you can then go the whole hog with Oxford if you wanted, to the point where you'd be in the exact same position as a APPFO graduate.

The total cost for the same license done modularly at Oxford Aviation would amount to;

£47,200

Yet their APPFO course is practically identical after your completion of your PPL and hour building but they manage to charge people double for the same thing. The best part is, people fall for it!!

:eek:

So far my integrated has cost me 45000USD which is about 27000GBP, i have all my FAA's done. Meaning
PPL, ME, Instrument, CLP, MEI, CFI and CFII. I have more than 200 hours of PIC in a multi engine airplane, i start to work as a CFI in may earning money and time. And i december i will start my ATPLs. And i have another 20000USD/13000GBP for my ATPLs, JAA CPL and FI rating. Then i am looking at my JAA instrument and i have yet to decide where to take that...

So my integrated was not that bad specially since i got money from my government to pay for it as i am enrolled in a college.

Just my 2cents

The government gave you the money or lent you the money?

End works out double of modular, but you have work, so might be worth it.

Some Scandinavian countries have aviation colleges where the government pays for training for selected individuals. Elsewhere in Europe this doesn't happen.

Absolutely right, if the licence is all you want. The problem is that many people here are looking beyond the licence, and how to acquire some manner of remunerated employment with it.

Most of the airline opportunities (few as they are,) for low houred pilots with these licences, are through the cadet schemes. These schemes are through particular training programmes.

To use your analogy. Pay £400 for a 42 inch Samsung TV that you can watch, or pay £1000 for a 42 inch Samsung TV that comes with the possibility of a technicians job attached to it.

It is a case of what is it you actually want to do with that licence.

Gaz45, with even a 5 minute cursory glance, it is easy to see some fairly biased figures coming out in your calculations. For example, why have you added the "Regulatory Exam Fees" package (£5,5K) to the integrated course price but not added the same associated costs to your modular calculations? Why have you factored in the accomodation in Oxford only for the integrated course? Why have you rounded £82k up to £85K? Where's the flight over to the US in the modular calculation? US medical insurance? Rent in US during hour building? Visa fees? Landing fees in UK? I'm sure there's more...

Try and look at it impartially and dispassionately and you find the integrated premium (whilst still significant) to be far smaller than you have calculated. As to what value that premium brings is moot, but I personally agree with Bealzebub.

Can I just add that the argument of cost and job prospects aside regarding the Integrated V Modular argument, I would choose modular all over again because of the fun I had doing it! Integrated is just a meat factory: in one end and out the other with no real experience gained along the way!
Yes you may get a job quicker than a modular but lets be honest, we'll all get there in the end, it's the stories you can tell about how you get there that will make it interesting. I did a BA hons Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Traning and graduated last summer, did my FI, had a great summer instructing and am now doing my MSc Air Transport Management at Cranfield University and instructing at weekends! Better than integrated any day!

You think? A nice idea, but it would not be "honest" to suggest that is the case. The attrition rate has always been significant, and nothing suggests that will change anytime soon.

If I were to offer an open fully funded scholarship (and I'm not doing by the way,) whereby the winner could select their own training programme from one of three routes, those routes being:

1)Integrated training course leading to airline cadetship.
2)Integrated training course for CPL/IR (ATPL writtens included.)
3)Part time, modular training for CPL/IR (ATPL writtens included.)

I would be amazed if less than 95% of applicants ticked other than box 1.
I would be even more amazed if the remaining 5% ticked other than box 2.

The point of the hypothesis being, that it really comes down to a question of absolute economics. If choices 1 and 2 and not affordable, then it really only leaves one choice. Whatever the advantages 1 or 2 may afford are irrelevant if they are not realistic options. Given the very large sums involved, that is going to be a de facto reality for the vast majority of aspirants.

I admire your achievement, determination and success to date Christian, which should stand you in good stead for the future. However many people here take the viewpoint (understandably) that the risk is dependant on the ability to achieve a relatively quick return. That often seems to result in people distorting the reality of what is actually happening, in order to make their own numbers fit.

Attrition notwithstanding, there is a large body of hopeful opinion that suggests it is an equal playing field provided you simply obtain a licence. That in turn often fails to identify where the goals are, or what the realities of the game itself are.

Yes you do make a very good point Beazelbub. Everyone would choose integrated but it's not viable for some people. Personally; I was modular until I got a cadetship so im now starting integrated training. Would I have otherwise no. Do I think with working a full week flying at weekends and studying for exams will be done as good as if I was flying the whole time no. For those that are thinking of doing the modular and work. I would recommend you to try it first. A 1 hr flight will take 3 hours out of your day home to home time. Longer flights may take your whole day. Can you work a full day then study for 3-4 hours in the evening for ATPL exams and get enough time off from your employer for the revision courses usually 2 weeks before the exams. Your looking at around 30 days of holiday all used on Flying.

Friday night you come home and sleep ready for flying your not out on the piss even though you've had a hard week.

I'm not saying that it's going to be easy but these are the questions that you have to ask yourself and I have found personally that when I start adding up the costs of Modular e.g. extra time required as the weather has been **** for the past 6 weekends. Regulatory fee's ect. Then it falls around the 55k mark.

Yes is it cheaper than integrated no doubt but the question you have to ask yourself is; can you justify spending the extra money in order to complete the course quicker and "hopefully" to a better standard because your fully immersed.

I've been waiting for the last 3 years now so this is my chance; there will never be another opportunity in my life to make this happen and have wanted to do this since like 8. I think the problem is people leaving schools and choosing ah i'll be a pilot lots of money and good career; without the resolve to make it thorugh the tough initial period.

BoeingDreamer:
I got some money as a loan and some money as a scholarship. The loan part i have to pay back, but it is a very low interest rate, much lower than any bank. I do not have to pay anything before i start working again. I know guys who borrowed money and they had to calculate mortgage and interest rate for the duration of the flight training.

Now, the end cost comes in relation on how much you must fly.
I busted my A$$, studied really really hard and did everything within minimums. Yes it can be done. And my costs are down.

I calculate that after two years, i will be all the ratings Commercial single, multi, CFI, CFII, MEI in both FAA and JAA for around 50000GBP/80000USD, a college degree in Aviation Science and more than 600 multi hours. And i will be working as a flight instructor for around 1 year earning money towards my degree.

So far i am extremely happy!

Boys, look, this argument isn't achieving anything. At the end of the day there are always going to be two options. No one is saying either way is right or wrong. You buy a Audi or Ford - they'll both get you from London to Leeds. Some people like Ford, some like Audi. You're always going to have a demand for the more expensive and apparently exclusive integrated schemes - that's just the way people are and vice versa.

That said..

As it stands all those who have spent out £80K+ on a integrated course are getting is a jet job with crap terms and conditions, crap pay and crap contracts. Yeah, at least they're getting experience on type but most are heavily in debt and will be paying the money back for years to come.

Modular guys, keep up the hard work - as much as some people like to tell you your hard work is worth nothing because you're not as desirable as integrated students, they're wrong. There will always be competition between the divides. Most of the pilots I speak to at work who have come through Oxford/CTC all say the same thing - "I regret it". Many have said how if they had to do it all again they'd go modular. CTC have a nickname given to them by their students which is Criminal Thieving :mad: - surely that says it all?

If people want to go integrated then let them do so. Sooner or later the demand for pilots is going to become so great that even the large flight schools won't be able to quench the industries thirst.

Your time will come, and when it does you'll have less debt then those who took the other path - and probably a better job/contract because they've all taken the crap offers from easyJet/Ryanair. When the airlines get desperate again they'll have to offer better pay and who knows maybe a free type rating!

Believe me, your efforts will be rewarded sooner or later.

I didn't want to yet dragged back into this disussion, but I just wanted to reiterate the point I was trying to make earlier, partic in light of the assertion student88 makes that eventually demand will be so high that the airlines will HAVE to emoy everyone.

What I would implore everyone considering flight training to do is consider the WHOLE costs - not just the headline financial cost. Look at the discussion DSB and I were having earlier in the thread and consider how it impacts your long term earning, time to command etc. Look at the very cogent arguments beazlebub puts forward - MOST people I know in life come to the conclusion - at some point - in their life that simply buying the cheapest [whatever it may be] isn't necessarily getting the best value for your money - so why do you expect it to be so for Flight training?

Modular or integrated will both get you a blue book. They are different beasts, so you cant simply say one is better than the other.... Instead it is up to YOU, the buyer, to familiarise yourself with all aspects of the pros and cons of both sides and choose accordingly.

Clanger32, or anyone else, as a matter of interest how do the modular courses at OAA CTC etc compare with intergrated? I have read on here over the years that intergrated get 'preferential treatment'?

I have a friend who went through OAA intergrated a few years ago, now at FR. He is happy, but then its what he has always wanted to do hence us being friends for so many years, because of shared interest. I must say its difficult to hold back seeing other people enjoying what I have also wanted to do for as long as I can remember, but I have to be sensible and seeing how much debt he left with, and knowing that (according to him) less than half of his course have found paid flying gigs, it just does not seem like a viable path to go down now.

I am very close to the end of a (long protracted) PPL, the dilemma I face is do I forget about commercial flight training and try to forge out a career in something else (being 28 now), or do I keep on aiming too high for myself? I dont expect anyone to answer that, it is a rhetorical question, but Im sure there are others on here in the same position. Clearly I will continue to fly for fun, (its a great thing to have on the CV too!), and the fun of it is why I started in the first place, plus the great people you meet involved in aviation. I just cant help thinking that spending any money, be it modular or intergrated, is the equivalent of piling it all in the garden and setting fire to it.

How I long for the days where you had to work your way up through instructing/general GA jobs, and only those few good enough to get on the mentored (sponsored) schemes got straight into the RHS of a jet...

Sorry for the ramble, I dont tend to post on these threads but I have been keeping an eye on them on a daily basis, for years, and I must thank all of the regulars (WWW, Bealzibub et al) for their rather excellent insight into the industry that you would not necessarily get elsewhere.

The fact that they "at work" certainly says something. However I am not sure the nickname really does. Initials do have a tendancy to lend themselves to overstated humour. I have been flying with cadets from these programmes for nearly 15 years now and have yet to meet one who has expressed any regret for the training choice they made. In fact most if not all seem to recognise the opportunity they have been afforded as very low hour pilots in gaining this type of opportunity.

A significant and growing number of airline companies have recognised the cost savings and flexibility that these cadet programmes afford them, and as they emerge from recession (to whatever degree,) these programmes are only likely to expand. A lot of investment has been made in recent years to provide for an increase in capacity and business. Take a look at the investment companies such as Flybe in Exeter are making in training facilities.

The idea that there will be a flood of opportunities so overwhelming that these organisations cannot cope with demand, is certainly one that they would rub their hands in glee at the anticipation of, but it is very unlikely to happen in reality.

A rapid expansion in growth generally, would simply introduce additional demand into the overall pilot market. That demand would be supplied by much the same sources as it always has been: experienced pilots looking to change jobs; military pilots; and career advancement pilots with sufficient levels of experience.

At the 250 hour level, the only changes likely based on current trends, projections, and even the most optimistic forecasts, are through these cadet schemes, simply because at this level of experience, and for airline flying, these are cadet opportunities. Outside of these schemes, the best opportunities are likely to be afforded to those who graduate themselves into the "career advancement" category by obtaining the levels of experience traditionally required by airlines looking for recruits who meet those minimum levels or better.

What this blindly fails to recognise, is that those who have found airline employment on the types of contracts you mention, will have elevated themselves into the "career advancement" and "job changer" category. Not only that, but they will do so with significant levels of relevant experience, that would make them very attractive in the "overwhelming" scenario you suggest.


There are certainly going to be opportunities in the future. The industry has evolved and will continue to do so. People embarking on training courses now will need to work hard, and chase whatever opportunities at whatever level may be there to be sought out. For most it will be an arduous and very frustrating climb. Some will succeed, some will fail and some will make significant levels of compromise. Why? Because it has always been like that. The idea that yesterdays 2000 hour "self improver" is todays 250 hour "modular" wannabe, is a fallacy.

I actually don't care whether anybody believes this, agrees or disagrees. I would simply say open your eyes and look at what is actually happening in the real world. The company I work for is taking on around 20 pilots this year and the mix is half from the "experienced" pilot market, and half from an integrated training provider. Any further expansion next year is likely to see similar fractions from the same sources.

Student 88, look at your own employer. Low hour cadets from an integrated training provider. Expansion into even lower hour cadets from another integrated training provider. Experienced pilots from the career change/advancement categories.

These cadets metamorphorsize from "cadets" into the other categories within 24 months normally, and there is no shortage of new cadets coming up to take their place. The "our time will come" speech is all very rousing, but based on what I have seen for the last 35 years, or what I see now, meaningless.

For most people who cannot obtain a "fast track" airline opportunity, they will need to work hard to achieve qualification in one of the experienced pilot categories. Make no mistake, some will.

My perspective is that I am sitting in the top branches of a very tall tree. It is pleasant, leafy and comfortable from this vantage point. I have grown up with this tree, and it now affords a good view of the surrounding forest. I have seen quite a few of the seasonal cycles, some great summers and a few memorably stormy winters. In recent years there have been some quite disturbing trends as Irishmen with chainsaws and bulldozers have moved into the forest. Even the tree I live in has lost a lot of fruit, as its branches have been aggresively cut off in husbandry designed to ensure survival, as the new fast growing saplings have shot up and multiplied. The reality is that the forest may well expand, but not with these lovely oaks, only with the more productive, aggressive, fast climbing trees. To survive in this forest, you need to recognise and adapt to what is happening or you will end up as compost.

Point taken. So are you saying that the only way in is through an £80K integrated course?